are the terms "butch" and "lezzie" and lipstick lezzie offensive to lesbians? - Empty Closets - A safe online community for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered people coming out

Anonymous · 18th Jan 2012, 11:37 PM

hi, i was wondering if the terms "butch" and "lezzie" and lipstick lezzie offensive to lesbians? no offense meant but i wanted to know.

Anonymous · 18th Jan 2012, 11:40 PM

I personally don't find them offensive, but that's just me.

J Snow · 18th Jan 2012, 11:52 PM

My speculation is, that with all such terms there is going to be a huge amount of disagreement. I've had a trans person freak out on me in real life for saying "male to female." She told me the term put to much emphasis on birth gender, but I've never heard anyone else get upset about it. I don't really see why they would be any more offensive than "bear," "twink," or "otter" are amongst gay males.

Edit: Oh yeah, I also agree with MWG's post below me. I meant to point out that while I don't think lipstick lesbian would be offensive, lezzie and lesbo do seem like they are probably offensive, especially the latter.

midwestgirl89 · 18th Jan 2012, 11:53 PM

I don't like those terms. Especially if someone is like "You are a lezzie" or something. I'm okay with the term lipstick lesbian in general but not lipstick lezzie. But it kind of depends who is saying it. If it's my best friend who is kidding around I wouldn't care. But if it's some random person I'd get annoyed. I don't even like to be called a lesbian (unless on here) sometimes.

Anonymous · 19th Jan 2012, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J Snow

My speculation is, that with all such terms there is going to be a huge amount of disagreement. I've had a trans person freak out on me in real life for saying "male to female." She told me the term put to much emphasis on birth gender, but I've never heard anyone else get upset about it. I don't really see why they would be any more offensive than "bear," "twink," or "otter" are amongst gay males.

Edit: Oh yeah, I also agree with MWG's post below me. I meant to point out that while I don't think lipstick lesbian would be offensive, lezzie and lesbo do seem like they are probably offensive, especially the latter.

what is an otter

midwestgirl89 · 19th Jan 2012, 12:13 AM

I think if you're joking around that might be different. The context is what matters.

Anonymous · 19th Jan 2012, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anonymous

Quote:

Originally Posted by J Snow

My speculation is, that with all such terms there is going to be a huge amount of disagreement. I've had a trans person freak out on me in real life for saying "male to female." She told me the term put to much emphasis on birth gender, but I've never heard anyone else get upset about it. I don't really see why they would be any more offensive than "bear," "twink," or "otter" are amongst gay males.

Edit: Oh yeah, I also agree with MWG's post below me. I meant to point out that while I don't think lipstick lesbian would be offensive, lezzie and lesbo do seem like they are probably offensive, especially the latter.

what is an otter

I just googled the term "gay otter." If anyone ever looks through my search history...

Google says an "otter" is a slim, hairy, gay man.

Anonymous · 19th Jan 2012, 05:45 AM

Butch can actually be used to describe a more masculine woman in general - and has been even applied to men on some occasions. But it's more of a classification of the manly lesbian stereotype.

I actually became aware of the expression, "lipstick lesbian," rather recently. It's essentially a longer version of the classification, "femme," the only difference being a, "femme," lesbian is more attracted to, "butch," lesbians, while a, "lipstick lesbian," is attracted to other, "lipstick lesbians/femmes."

*shrug*

I've got loads of Lesbian friends, and they don't tend to take offense to any terms unless its used with obvious dislike. But when it comes to my friendship, they call me a fag or a half-breed (cause I'm bi) and I call 'em lez or dyke. For us personally there is nothing but affection behind the nicknames, but coming from someone else they can be extremely negative.

dreamcatcher · 19th Jan 2012, 07:37 AM

I don't think they're offensive although I do think the word lezzie sounds a bit ugly. I've also heard the terms "boi", "soft butch", and tomboy femme. I tried looking these up and couldn't figure really see the difference between a boi and a soft butch. As to what a tomboy femme is, not quite sure.

The thing I hate about "butch" "femme" "boi" etc, is that it puts everyone into these neat little boxes, as if that's all there is to a person. Sort of like if you're a butch, you must be tough, masculine, and aggresive, when you may be lacking one or more of those typical "butch" characteristics. And sometimes people will take one of these labels and try to fulfill the role of that label. I guess I don't like all the labeling because I don't feel like I fit into one of these neat little lesbian labels and I wouldn't want people making assumptions about me because of a certain label.

heatqueen · 19th Jan 2012, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dreamcatcher

I don't think they're offensive although I do think the word lezzie sounds a bit ugly. I've also heard the terms "boi", "soft butch", and tomboy femme. I tried looking these up and couldn't figure really see the difference between a boi and a soft butch. As to what a tomboy femme is, not quite sure.

The thing I hate about "butch" "femme" "boi" etc, is that it puts everyone into these neat little boxes, as if that's all there is to a person. Sort of like if you're a butch, you must be tough, masculine, and aggresive, when you may be lacking one or more of those typical "butch" characteristics. And sometimes people will take one of these labels and try to fulfill the role of that label. I guess I don't like all the labeling because I don't feel like I fit into one of these neat little lesbian labels and I wouldn't want people making assumptions about me because of a certain label.

You could easily be me. My house mates all know about my passionate hate of labels and I most definitely cannot fit into boxes. With absolute certainty, I despise stereotyping of any form and get annoyed when people (including my friends) imply certain labels about me. The other day my house mate said 'Maybe you dress too straight' in reference to the fact that I somehow picked up a guy at a gay club one night, and I freaked out because the way I dress should have nothing to do with my sexuality whatsoever.

That said, I don't really care much about the words "butch", "femme", etc. but I see them more as a generalization and shouldn't be taken to mean that a person has absolutely all of the traits associated with those words. For instance, I would describe myself as "femme" as opposed to "a femme" because turning it into a noun automatically means that I've put myself into a box; whereas if I was to use it as a general adjective it only means I have the traits of a generally feminine person.

J Snow · 19th Jan 2012, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anonymous

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anonymous

Quote:

Originally Posted by J Snow

My speculation is, that with all such terms there is going to be a huge amount of disagreement. I've had a trans person freak out on me in real life for saying "male to female." She told me the term put to much emphasis on birth gender, but I've never heard anyone else get upset about it. I don't really see why they would be any more offensive than "bear," "twink," or "otter" are amongst gay males.

Edit: Oh yeah, I also agree with MWG's post below me. I meant to point out that while I don't think lipstick lesbian would be offensive, lezzie and lesbo do seem like they are probably offensive, especially the latter.

what is an otter

I just googled the term "gay otter." If anyone ever looks through my search history...

Google says an "otter" is a slim, hairy, gay man.

Image

Hmmm I always thought it was someone who was muscular rather than slim... Anyway, I think its also kind of used as a person who is somewhere in between "bear" and "twink," because obviously every body type needs some sort of label and there are only 3 male bodies in the entire world....

I don't personally find all this labeling too offensive, but I think it does kind of push people to unhealthy extremes in both their own physical appearance or attraction. People feel that feminine or masculine is what they are into, and then they don't give people that fit that stereotype the time of day. Likewise, I think it makes people want to gravitate towards one spectrum or the other. I don't see it as offensive, just kind of silly. Though I'm probably guilty of conforming to it in my own way.

Anonymous · 19th Jan 2012, 11:37 AM

I'm new at this and just starting to learn to get comfortable. I don't think I would find any term particularly offensive. I think it’s mostly the "way" people use it that makes it offensive. I'm sure the most innocent words could be used negatively.

On the other hand, the few friend and family I have come out to (they are supportive) arn't even comfortable saying the word gay, lesbian or anything around me. I get to hear a lot of "the way you are", "that way", "it", "your preference", "your type", "you know...like that". . . so, I don't know what's worse... I guess we just arn't ready for jokes yet.

Also, I think the whole labeling thing does put pressure on people. At least for me, I have no idea what category I am in. There are times that I feel like I should somehow "fit" somewhere, since I no longer seem to "fit" in to the straight world.

Ianthe · 19th Jan 2012, 03:52 PM

It's always rude to call people names they don't identify with.

Obviously, people who self-identify with those terms do not find them offensive.

I, personally, very much dislike being called a lipstick lesbian, which sometimes happens, because I feel that it trivializes both my sexuality and my gender expression. I'm a femme, and that's true even when I first step out of the shower with no make-up. My femininity is a complex aspect of who I am, not something that can be summed up by "lipstick." And "lipstick lezzie" is even worse.

Also, "lipstick lesbian" usually refers to feminine women who exclusively date other feminine women, and there are connotations among lesbians that they don't want anything to do with lesbians who "look gay."

I've never heard anyone use "lezzie" about themselves. Well, except for the animated character, "Lizzie the Lezzie." But no real people.

I know women who are proud butches.

If someone called me butch, I would be very confused--actually, I would think they were very confused--but I would not be offended.

18th Jan 2012, 11:37 PM	#1
Anonymous Posting Anonymously Posts: 34,191 Join Date: Dec 2007	are the terms "butch" and "lezzie" and lipstick lezzie offensive to lesbians? hi, i was wondering if the terms "butch" and "lezzie" and lipstick lezzie offensive to lesbians? no offense meant but i wanted to know.

18th Jan 2012, 11:40 PM	#2
Anonymous Posting Anonymously Posts: 34,191 Join Date: Dec 2007	Re: are the terms "butch" and "lezzie" and lipstick lezzie offensive to lesbians? I personally don't find them offensive, but that's just me.

18th Jan 2012, 11:52 PM	#3
J Snow EC Addict Regular Member Gender: Sex - Male, Gender -Female/bigender/not quite sure Orientation: Primarily interested in men. Out Status: fairly out about sexuality, gender not so much Location: Des Moines, Iowa Age: 22 Posts: 1,380 Join Date: Aug 2011	Re: are the terms "butch" and "lezzie" and lipstick lezzie offensive to lesbians? My speculation is, that with all such terms there is going to be a huge amount of disagreement. I've had a trans person freak out on me in real life for saying "male to female." She told me the term put to much emphasis on birth gender, but I've never heard anyone else get upset about it. I don't really see why they would be any more offensive than "bear," "twink," or "otter" are amongst gay males. Edit: Oh yeah, I also agree with MWG's post below me. I meant to point out that while I don't think lipstick lesbian would be offensive, lezzie and lesbo do seem like they are probably offensive, especially the latter. __________________ "You don't need to hide my friend, for I am just like you." Last edited by J Snow; 18th Jan 2012 at 11:56 PM..

18th Jan 2012, 11:53 PM	#4
midwestgirl89 EC Addict Full Member Gender: Female Orientation: Interested in Women Out Status: Some people Age: 23 Posts: 543 Join Date: Jul 2011	Re: are the terms "butch" and "lezzie" and lipstick lezzie offensive to lesbians? I don't like those terms. Especially if someone is like "You are a lezzie" or something. I'm okay with the term lipstick lesbian in general but not lipstick lezzie. But it kind of depends who is saying it. If it's my best friend who is kidding around I wouldn't care. But if it's some random person I'd get annoyed. I don't even like to be called a lesbian (unless on here) sometimes.

19th Jan 2012, 12:13 AM	#6
midwestgirl89 EC Addict Full Member Gender: Female Orientation: Interested in Women Out Status: Some people Age: 23 Posts: 543 Join Date: Jul 2011	Re: are the terms "butch" and "lezzie" and lipstick lezzie offensive to lesbians? I think if you're joking around that might be different. The context is what matters.

19th Jan 2012, 05:45 AM	#8
Anonymous Posting Anonymously Posts: 34,191 Join Date: Dec 2007	Re: are the terms "butch" and "lezzie" and lipstick lezzie offensive to lesbians? Butch can actually be used to describe a more masculine woman in general - and has been even applied to men on some occasions. But it's more of a classification of the manly lesbian stereotype. I actually became aware of the expression, "lipstick lesbian," rather recently. It's essentially a longer version of the classification, "femme," the only difference being a, "femme," lesbian is more attracted to, "butch," lesbians, while a, "lipstick lesbian," is attracted to other, "lipstick lesbians/femmes." shrug I've got loads of Lesbian friends, and they don't tend to take offense to any terms unless its used with obvious dislike. But when it comes to my friendship, they call me a fag or a half-breed (cause I'm bi) and I call 'em lez or dyke. For us personally there is nothing but affection behind the nicknames, but coming from someone else they can be extremely negative.

19th Jan 2012, 07:37 AM	#9
dreamcatcher EC Addict Full Member Gender: Female Orientation: lesbian and still working on accepting it Out Status: A few people Location: Florida Age: 20 Posts: 297 Join Date: Oct 2011	Re: are the terms "butch" and "lezzie" and lipstick lezzie offensive to lesbians? I don't think they're offensive although I do think the word lezzie sounds a bit ugly. I've also heard the terms "boi", "soft butch", and tomboy femme. I tried looking these up and couldn't figure really see the difference between a boi and a soft butch. As to what a tomboy femme is, not quite sure. The thing I hate about "butch" "femme" "boi" etc, is that it puts everyone into these neat little boxes, as if that's all there is to a person. Sort of like if you're a butch, you must be tough, masculine, and aggresive, when you may be lacking one or more of those typical "butch" characteristics. And sometimes people will take one of these labels and try to fulfill the role of that label. I guess I don't like all the labeling because I don't feel like I fit into one of these neat little lesbian labels and I wouldn't want people making assumptions about me because of a certain label.

19th Jan 2012, 11:37 AM	#12
Anonymous Posting Anonymously Posts: 34,191 Join Date: Dec 2007	Re: are the terms "butch" and "lezzie" and lipstick lezzie offensive to lesbians? I'm new at this and just starting to learn to get comfortable. I don't think I would find any term particularly offensive. I think it’s mostly the "way" people use it that makes it offensive. I'm sure the most innocent words could be used negatively. On the other hand, the few friend and family I have come out to (they are supportive) arn't even comfortable saying the word gay, lesbian or anything around me. I get to hear a lot of "the way you are", "that way", "it", "your preference", "your type", "you know...like that". . . so, I don't know what's worse... I guess we just arn't ready for jokes yet. Also, I think the whole labeling thing does put pressure on people. At least for me, I have no idea what category I am in. There are times that I feel like I should somehow "fit" somewhere, since I no longer seem to "fit" in to the straight world.

19th Jan 2012, 03:52 PM	#13
Ianthe EC Addict Full Member Gender: Female/Femme Orientation: Lesbian Out Status: Out to everyone Location: Oregon Age: 32 Posts: 1,055 Join Date: Feb 2011	Re: are the terms "butch" and "lezzie" and lipstick lezzie offensive to lesbians? It's always rude to call people names they don't identify with. Obviously, people who self-identify with those terms do not find them offensive. I, personally, very much dislike being called a lipstick lesbian, which sometimes happens, because I feel that it trivializes both my sexuality and my gender expression. I'm a femme, and that's true even when I first step out of the shower with no make-up. My femininity is a complex aspect of who I am, not something that can be summed up by "lipstick." And "lipstick lezzie" is even worse. Also, "lipstick lesbian" usually refers to feminine women who exclusively date other feminine women, and there are connotations among lesbians that they don't want anything to do with lesbians who "look gay." I've never heard anyone use "lezzie" about themselves. Well, except for the animated character, "Lizzie the Lezzie." But no real people. I know women who are proud butches. If someone called me butch, I would be very confused--actually, I would think they were very confused--but I would not be offended.