Too straight to be gay and too gay to be straight?

[Anonymous]

Anyone else like this? I lift weights, play sports etc.. I'm a masculine guy in general, but yes, I'm about 99% gay. I hate how everything in society (US anyway) is so black-and-white and pre-set. The few people I've come out to, usually in a pretty light way, just laugh and think I'm messing with them at first, like as if there is absolutely no way, like I'm too straight to be gay.. Now, after going to the gay district of a nearby city and going to all the gay bars and everything, the guys there say I'm the "straightest gay guy ever..." It's not even like I'm that overly "straight" either (I really don't try anyway, I'm way past trying to put up the straight act), I really don't get it, I'm a freak of nature??

Please tell me you're not all like that?? And, I am not trying to turn this into a "bash the super femmy gays" thread, who am I to judge right? But why does everyone think all gay people have to be so damn femmy? The few friends that know, and are basically as accepting as anyone, even perpetuate the stereotypes jokingly. Is it just me or is the world crazy? It's like people think,(and apparently gay people themselves) "gay=lisp+super girly+weak+into fashion+other BS". Sure, maybe there's Some truth to it but still, why is this our stereotypical image? Again, I am not trying to bash anyone who is femmy, I just wish it weren't the only stereotype out there, I just feel like I don't fit in in either world.

[Nightmaric]

I'm not even overly masculine and I get that a lot too. To the few people I came out to. It's because we live in a heteronormative society and if you don't fit into a certain box you aren't normal. No matter what it proves that stereotypes are stupid for everyone involved. Don't change to fit them! And revel in the glory of being yourself.

[Lexington]

I think I'm pretty masculine. I'm a bit too overweight and don't play sports, but I'm a season-ticket holder to a contact sport. (The GM of the team told my partner and me last night "It's so great to see you guys out here every week - I really appreciate you guys.") I also listen to rock music most of the time, wear T-shirts and jeans every day (if I can), and have a pretty deep voice. But me like-y the dick-y, so I'm gay.

But I've never had much problem with people believing that I was gay. Why? Because I'm pretty open about it. I don't come out to people in a half-joking way, because then they're more likely to think I'm more-than-half-joking about it. I just say "Actually, I'm gay". And there might be a "really?" thrown my way, but after that, they're pretty accepting.

It may be you're falling into the same trap you feel others are falling into. Femmy gay guys are pretty easy to spot, because...they're femmy. They stick out. They act somewhat differently than "your standard guy". But I've got plenty of gay friends who, like me, aren't that femmy. And you're probably looking right past them, because...well, they're not giving off many cues that they might be gay! And if they were, well, you'd probably think they were femmy, and there you be.

Lex

[Chip]

I talk to a lot of people in the coming out process who run up against this particular issue, and I have an idea as to why people have that perception.

The gay people who are effeminate, who "talk gay", who "walk gay", who are flamboyant, into fashion and interior design and whatever other stereotypes you want to come up with... they're really obvious. People look at them, guess they're gay, and, a very large percentage of the time, they're right.

But then there are the people no one would EVER guess are gay. EC has a high school football team captain that no one EVER thought was gay until he came out to them. I have friends who are bodybuilders, wrestlers, construction workers, Ultimate champions, hippies, football players. In introducing one of my (gay) friends to another bunch of gay guys, they all came up to me later and said some variation of "Are you sure he's gay? He doesn't seem gay."

So that's just the point. The obvious people everyone knows. But the less obvious ones are invisible. You never know they're gay when you're walking around because they don't fit the stereotypes. But they are. You might never see them at a Pride celebration because they just don't like that sort of hoopla, even though they're out to everyone. They don't own a single piece of Armani, Diesel, Prada, Dolce and Gabbana, or any other "gay" fashion wear.

And there are plenty of gay guys who would never wear a Pride bracelet, or get a purple triangle tattoo, or go to some gay-rights rally. They'd die before they'd dress up in drag. They just go quietly about their lives, and are no different than anyone else, except that they love another guy.

So really, our community is filled with all types, from wildly flamboyant, to activist, to scientist/professional/academic, to laborer, to just about anything else you can imagine. It's just the most obvious ones (and the ones that probably tug most at our own internal fears about masculinity) are the ones that we most easily identify as "the gay community."

[Gravity Defyer]

I find myself on the same dilemma. Every person I've come out to is shocked because I, actually, am not femenine.

So you are not alone. There's plenty of us "straight looking" gay guys. But we're not easily spotted. That's when the surprise comes.

[alex1170]

I am also just as you describe, super masculine and into sports and "guy" things. I don't think it is as uncommon as most people think it is. But, it does make it easier for a lot of masculine guys, like myself, to stay in the closet. This could be why there seem to be less of us. Also, people do not go blurting out "i'm gay" even if they are out already. And no one goes and says, "hey, that guy seems totally straight by stereotypes that people generalize about. do you think he is gay?"

[Z3ni]

Well.. I'm sorta in between, I'm into Martial arts and rap etc, but I'm also into pop and love movies.. but that seems a bit normal... hmm

[insidehappy]

well i think we all want to find other images out there that we can identify with and feel like, "ok, im not the only one like this". so i can understand why would be frustrated when you have gone to gay bars/clubs and everyone seems to subtly tell you "you're not like us" in a matter of speaking. there are people just like you, but you do not know they are there. many poeple are in plain sight but you would never know because there's no way to tell.

my suggestion is that you attend events and organization that have a greater likelihood to have people like yourself there. i know there is a gay sporting league and there are websites im sure you can search to find this sort of thing in your own area.

[ukeye]

The movie 'The Butch Factor' is a good example of the degrees of masculinity in gays.

Masculinity historically isn't exactly what masculinity is today.. men used to be closer and more touchy feely and had much closer kinships that would probably be considered 'gay' by western society nowadays.

I am not at all into sports - I do love cars though, so I guess that pretty masculine. I don't, in fact do much at all that is stereotypically gay or a.. however, like lex posted - I am generally up front about it.. it raises a few eyebrows to begin with, but really - who cares what anyone else thinks?

Every gay person has their ups and downs - its just what has been said, society is black and white on the issue.. I think of being gay similar to being short or any other self esteem punching ailment.. dealing with it is entirely up to how you.. you can either let it own you or just accept it and move on.

[Ridiculous]

By the way, proportionally gay guys are more likely to lift weights and work out than straight guys.

If you are after a guy more like yourself, then as above said perhaps you should try looking somewhere that is more likely to attract that sort of person. They're certainly out there, you just have to look in the right places.

[Anonymous]

Originally Posted by Ridiculous

By the way, proportionally gay guys are more likely to lift weights and work out than straight guys.

If you are after a guy more like yourself, then as above said perhaps you should try looking somewhere that is more likely to attract that sort of person. They're certainly out there, you just have to look in the right places.

its funny and i think you are right because on several "dating sites" all the guys show off their bodies especially when they are on the discreet and they do not want to show their face. and they all usually have nice bodies becuase i guess you have to have that to compete when things are all about looks. so they have to work out somewhere or be athelthic so i think gyms are probably more 50/50 gay.

[Anonymous]

OP:

I know I'm not the only masculine guy here... I just need new friends and I don't even know where to start. I like doing "guy" stuff, and as a result all my friends and ones I've known forever, are or turned out to be, homophobic straight guys, at varying degrees (well not ALL, but most). Actually I bet there are just as many "normal acting" gay guys out there as obvious ones, I know (of) a couple but it just sucks because we do blend in with ease. It sucks not knowing anyone you can relate to, much less talk to about any of this... I'm just so anxious to move on in life, and finally feel safe enough where I can be myself and speak my mind. Right now I'd get thrown on the street if my dad found out and I haven't graduated from school yet so.....


I'm kind of debating whether to stick it out for another year and a half in the closet and move or give my friends a chance at accepting me... it's really sad that I've come to this point, some of these people I grew up with and have known most my life but I really don't know whether their hate/fear of me will outweigh the many years of friendship with some of them...

How did your super straight friends handle it?

Remember, I know lots of your typical homophobic straight guys who use "gay" in negative contexts every other minute

[Chip]

I think you might be surprised. I know a lot of people (now in their early-mid 20s) that came out at or near the end of high school, in small towns in rural and/or not-so-accepting places. The sort of places where most or all of the guys make homophobic remarks and so forth.

And... almost without exception, their friends were supportive. Some of the friends, it took a few days or weeks to get their heads around the idea their friend was gay, and some were instant... and nearly all apologized for being so homophobic and making insulting remarks.

Now... there will be some who aren't supportive. Those are generally the ones with bigoted parents, or crazy religious parents (often the same thing) And there are also the ones who are, themselves, deeply closeted, like Dave Karowski on Glee. But those are for the most part in the minority, even in places like the deep south, or Catholic schools, and the like.

Oh and... not to burst anyone's bubble but... someone with really fine-tuned gaydar can pick out even the most straight-acting, deeply closeted gay guys with extremely high accuracy. I don't know exactly how to describe it, but there are just subtle indications that most gay guys give off that a gaydar expert can pick up on. As I think I've mentioned elsewhere, a tongue-in-cheek game my friends and I like to play is "find the hidden fairy"... and we're usually correct in the ones we identify as gay.

[Anonymous]

OP:

I guess I'll never know if I don't try... It's just going to be so weird... I'm too "straight", and I don't like standing out that much. Nobodys ever guessed I was gay, except my brother, who I don't see even that often surprisingly, one of the few I make sure not to give any hints to at all... maybe he has the gift lol..

I guess if one of my family/friends revealed something taboo/controversial that they've been hiding, that I never once suspected, I'd probably be fine with it, but that's just me. I just get the feeling most people I know will never be very tolerant and I don't want just the fact that they like me to change their minds either, it just seems meaningless that way. I've already heard their real opinions.. I'm so tired of worrying about this...

[Lexington]

>>>I guess I'll never know if I don't try... It's just going to be so weird... I'm too "straight", and I don't like standing out that much. Nobodys ever guessed I was gay, except my brother, who I don't see even that often surprisingly, one of the few I make sure not to give any hints to at all... maybe he has the gift lol..

The biggest clue that somebody might be gay isn't a love of showtunes. It's "indifference towards the opposite sex". Even the most masculine gay guys show that.

>>>I've already heard their real opinions...

The thing is - you haven't. Because until somebody close to them comes out of the closet, it's very easy for them to consign "gays" to some far-off category. To put it simply, gays are "them" - some nebulous group of people that they (falsely) believe that they never interact with. When somebody close to somebody homophobic comes out, this forces them to re-examine their beliefs and motives. "I've always thought that gays were like this. But now Fred says he's gay..." And yeah, I'd be lying if I said sometimes, people choose to hold tight to their beliefs and cast the gay guy aside. But it happens a lot less frequently than you might imagine. In my opinion, nearly all the strides made by gay rights over the past half-century can be traced back to that. The more people come out, the more people are forced to confront that "there are gays in my immediate circle", and their attitudes towards them perhaps aren't the right ones.

Lex

[Anonymous]

Originally Posted by Chip

As I think I've mentioned elsewhere, a tongue-in-cheek game my friends and I like to play is "find the hidden fairy"... and we're usually correct in the ones we identify as gay.

i know its tongue and cheek but it kinda reinforces negative sterotypes and imagery (fairy) and really is counterproductive to a climate where masculine men want to be out. by saying fairy it denotes a "negative connotation" and paints a the picture of a group of gay guys sitting around gossiping about who is or who isn't gay within that location. i know it's all in fun and you're totally not playing the game or naming it to hurt anyone but it actually really proves the point of why men find it so hard to come out because they just want to still be theirselves without all the negative labels. also, what really is the point of the game? ok, gay people are all around, big deal. maybe play a new game..."which one of us has the balls to go up and introduce ourselves to the guy we think is possibly gay."

[SFSorrow]

Originally Posted by Chip

Oh and... not to burst anyone's bubble but... someone with really fine-tuned gaydar can pick out even the most straight-acting, deeply closeted gay guys with extremely high accuracy. I don't know exactly how to describe it, but there are just subtle indications that most gay guys give off that a gaydar expert can pick up on. As I think I've mentioned elsewhere, a tongue-in-cheek game my friends and I like to play is "find the hidden fairy"... and we're usually correct in the ones we identify as gay.

Just curious, but could explain what these subtle signs are, or is it more 'instinctive'?

In the past I've had more offers from guys, even though I wouldn't consider myself to give off 'gay vibes'. The last time somebody did was in a (straight) club, and a girl came up to me and said her friend liked me but I said 'sorry, I'm not gay'. A couple of weeks later I started to face up to it, and if it had happened then I might have gone for it, especially as he seemed nice from what I could tell. So near, yet so far. It's never happened since, very annoying. Mini rant over.

[SFSorrow]

Originally Posted by Anonymous

i know its tongue and cheek but it kinda reinforces negative sterotypes and imagery (fairy) and really is counterproductive to a climate where masculine men want to be out. by saying fairy it denotes a "negative connotation" and paints a the picture of a group of gay guys sitting around gossiping about who is or who isn't gay within that location. i know it's all in fun and you're totally not playing the game or naming it to hurt anyone but it actually really proves the point of why men find it so hard to come out because they just want to still be theirselves without all the negative labels. also, what really is the point of the game? ok, gay people are all around, big deal. maybe play a new game..."which one of us has the balls to go up and introduce ourselves to the guy we think is possibly gay."

I also know how it feels, one of the things that put me off is the impression I got of the gay community as a clique that you have to somehow break into, and if you don't know the rules or code words you won't be accepted and will be an outsider.

[sanguine]

Originally Posted by Nightmaric

I'm not even overly masculine and I get that a lot too. To the few people I came out to. It's because we live in a heteronormative society and if you don't fit into a certain box you aren't normal. No matter what it proves that stereotypes are stupid for everyone involved. Don't change to fit them! And revel in the glory of being yourself.

i agree with this

Originally Posted by ukeye

The movie 'The Butch Factor' is a good example of the degrees of masculinity in gays.

Masculinity historically isn't exactly what masculinity is today.. men used to be closer and more touchy feely and had much closer kinships that would probably be considered 'gay' by western society nowadays.

hmmm seems like a movie i am willing to watch and i agree with the masculine part.

yes in response to the OP i know a heck of a lot of guys who are far more fem than i am and they are straight, i too also got that lame reaction where they go "NO WAY" then it automatically jumps to "when did you turn gay?" or the alternative "why are you gay?",which ends up with me going into a phase of aggression.

besides i believe even in the most masculine gay guy there is always going to be that female element, or feminine energy that wants to understand and share emotionally.

i think its more important for people to learn and understand before they judge, after all hate is an emotion caused by factors we dont want to see in ourselves, or because we envy what we see in others and wish we had that factor for ourselves

[Lexington]

Those in the know, with well-tuned gaydar, swear "it's in the eyes". I personally can't see it, but my friends are rarely wrong.

Lex