Important Changes at Empty Closets - Discussion Thread

[Paul_UK]

Please use this thread to discuss the important changes being made at Empty Closets, which are described in detail here (http://www.emptyclosets.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11734).

Please read all of that thread before commenting or asking questions as the information may already be in there.

[pirateninja]

We realise that some of these changes will not be well received. However please understand that this is the result of several days of discussions with the site owners, who were also in contact with their legal advisers.

I know some of the changes are a bit harsh, such as taking the chatroom and ability to PM other members from the "regular members". However having read what caused this debacle to come up:

The recent problems with an older member making inappropriate contact with a number of younger members

I think that it may be a reasonable idea. After all, you don't know who is logging on, and as harsh as this new system can seem, it does mean that members have to "prove themselves" almost, that they are here for genuine reasons.

As much as it is all for safety, I can still see this news being taken badly. :dry:

[Myzou]

I actually like the idea... The established member thing is a good idea, prevents perverts from targeting members on the site (people of all ages, although 18- are more likely here) with inappropriate content. The whole IM thing and myspace also seems like a good idea.

I'm still a bit iffy about PMs being saved on the server and mods being able to view them, as there's nothing bad about PMs I send, but it does feel like a bit of privacy invasion, but then again, I trust the mods on the site, as I've talked to all of them at one point or another o.o.

However, I'm curious. What will happen to the pics thread? As a lot of members enjoy posting pictures there, to show new hairstyles, piercings, etc. but keeping it open would be just as bad as myspace, if not worse. Would it be possible to make it available to established members and not new members, instead of being deleted, which I'm guessing will prob. happen to it?

Also: What will happen to the profile messages? Will those be kept? I see nothing mentioned about them. I kind've enjoy being able to leave a quick message on someone's profile, rather then sending an actual PM about it, lol.

Gonna go about removing my MSN address and myspace address on profile now :3

[MeskElil]

The idea of inappropriate contact between older and younger members is slightly frightening to me...I didn't realize that it was a problem.

I agree that these measures are completely necessary for the safety of members, and even now it is still very liberal. I appreciate the Mod staff for taking so much about our safety into account.

Well...I just wanted to state my opinion.
Thank you, Mods.

[agraves]

I'm fairly new to the forum so I will likely be losing some of the features. It makes me sad, but I definately agree with the reasons for which it is being done. I'm glad the mods fought for the forum to keep the PM and chartoom capabilities. Those make it feel more personal and friendly, in my opinion.

[Jeimuzu]

I agree that these changes are wise. However, the member whose actions created the necessity for them, would have been a good candidate for established membership, I'd have thought.

[Paul_UK]

I'm still a bit iffy about PMs being saved on the server and mods being able to view them, as there's nothing bad about PMs I send, but it does feel like a bit of privacy invasion, but then again, I trust the mods on the site, as I've talked to all of them at one point or another o.o.

PMs were where we found quite a lot of the evidence of what was going on. We are legally obliged to keep them, like the chatlogs, and periodic checking through could reveal potential problems. We haven't established the system yet but it may be that the initial view is the messages only (a page full at a time), without sender or recipients names. Then we'd only check who if there was a problem.

However, I'm curious. What will happen to the pics thread? As a lot of members enjoy posting pictures there, to show new hairstyles, piercings, etc. but keeping it open would be just as bad as myspace, if not worse. Would it be possible to make it available to established members and not new members, instead of being deleted, which I'm guessing will prob. happen to it?

That's still being discussed. A section for established members only is one idea.

We have a lot of details to clear up still. The decision was only reached yesterday, so we may not have answers for everything yet.

[sngl]

We will install a system to automatically log and permanently store all PMs, so that they are not lost even if both the sender and recipient delete them. Admins and selected moderators will be able to view these and will carry out checks from time to time to make sure the PM system is not being abused.

Hm....so you will read all my PMs and know my darkest secrets? :lol:

I think the changes are a bit drastic, but if this is what it takes to make EC truly 'a safe place' then I'm not complaining

[Myzou]

I'm still a bit iffy about PMs being saved on the server and mods being able to view them, as there's nothing bad about PMs I send, but it does feel like a bit of privacy invasion, but then again, I trust the mods on the site, as I've talked to all of them at one point or another o.o.

PMs were where we found quite a lot of the evidence of what was going on. We are legally obliged to keep them, like the chatlogs, and periodic checking through could reveal potential problems. We haven't established the system yet but it may be that the initial view is the messages only (a page full at a time), without sender or recipients names. Then we'd only check who if there was a problem.

That actually sounds nice, but it's up to you guys of course, not like I'll leave EC because of it LOL. It's kind of like the anonymous forums that way, can't see names, but if someone shows that needs a name, you're able to check. >.> So I'm hoping that's what happens, but I'm happy either way.

That's still being discussed. A section for established members only is one idea.

We have a lot of details to clear up still. The decision was only reached yesterday, so we may not have answers for everything yet.

kk, was just curious :) Thought about it when I was browsing through Chit Chat and saw the thread, then thought "Wait a second..." lol.

[Martin]

I agree that these changes are wise. However, the member whose actions created the necessity for them, would have been a good candidate for established membership, I'd have thought.

That is the one problem we did think of, however with all these new monitoring procedures being put in place they would have been caught that way. We will not just let anybody into the Established Member group. They will be checked out before being given powers to contact any members. :)

Getting into the group is only one part. If anybody does abuse the powers given to them then they can expect to lose them. It is harsh, but i can't think of another way that EC could be more safe. ^_^

[MeskElil]

I agree that these changes are wise. However, the member whose actions created the necessity for them, would have been a good candidate for established membership, I'd have thought.

That is the one problem we did think of, however with all these new monitoring procedures being put in place they would have been caught that way. We will not just let anybody into the Established Member group. They will be checked out before being given powers to contact any members. :)

Getting into the group is only one part. If anybody does abuse the powers given to them then they can expect to lose them. It is harsh, but i can't think of another way that EC could be more safe. ^_^

Yay, MartinSuperMod!!! :eusa_clap
Particularly the last sentence. Shows me that you really care. I'm glad the people on EC care so much...it makes me feel so much safer.

[JSG]

I don't like this at all, but I understand perfectly well that this is needed.
Because of people like :***:, a wonderful forum like EC needs to be restricted. The people it'll affect the most are the new members who need help and PM someone they trust for advice, many are too shy to post on the public forum or just prefer to talk to one person.
I like sending PMs to new members, I'm very disappointed.

C'est la vie...

[Tom]

i have to agree, when im in the mood to frequent the forums and i see a new person i did enjoy sending em a PM to make them feel welcome and to encourage them to get 10 posts so i cud have sum fresh meat in the chatroom (meat referring to sum1 to pick on, in a kind way)

anyways i do get why this is being done, and i will support it 100%. i just hope it doesn't put off a few new people but it if makes EC a safer place then i think it would be worth it.

[Behling]

We understand this may be upsetting to many of you, believe me it was upsetting to me. But if EC is able to continue these changes must be made. I'm really glad you guys understand why this must happen and are willing to support it even if you may not like it.

[Grof142007]

ugH AND I I JUST FIX MY SIGGY hmp oh well what must be done must be done man that going to kill that chat room but im glad we still have the chat room cause im sure a couple of ppl would have died out if it was gone.

and ill edit out my siggy so it wont show myspace ,stickam, YT but QUESTION Can i still have the link to the EC shop?

[Martin]

I have sent out PM's to members who have already been confirmed for Established Member status.

If you have not received one then please do not assume you will not get it. Most of the PM's were sent to members with 500+ posts and/or older members who have been here for a decent amount of time. Those below 500 posts have not been reviewed in detail by the staff yet.

If you have not yet received a PM then please wait patiently. We are reviewing every member with 100+ posts (which is a lot of background checks to complete). Those who do not get Established Member status straight away will be able to apply for it in anyway. :)

A few points:

Please don't use the discussion thread to moan about not receiving a PM for established member. As stated above, not everybody will receive a PM straight away.

Please don't start using anon to complain. There is a discussion thread so use it. If you start abusing anon then you will be logged and it can affect your chances of ranking up to established member.
Quoted from other thread. :)

[Martin]

QUESTION Can i still have the link to the EC shop?

Yep, i can't see why not. There are no plans to remove it so your link should be just fine. :)

I'll ask Paul next time i see him, but i can't imagine it being a problem.

[sexyalex]

like OMG, just when i thought things on this site could never get worst. NO disrespect to the owners or advisors or whoever...

..btw before i go into my speech, Paul i have a question for u....u said;
We will remove all instant messenger details (MSN, Skype, email etc), social networking websites (FaceBook, MySpace etc) from profiles, and they will no longer be displayed under people's names in their posts.

right? then why did u also say...
Please edit your signature and profile as necessary now to remove this information.

i mean.... (Alex is confused :confused:)

anyways, :dry:
my opinion and i seriosuly hope this dose not affect me in anyways, but my opinion on this is EXCELLENT. I mean for security purposes of course cuz one of my classmates caught me on EC and said she would tell everyone about thi site if i don't pay her. NOW I DON'T HAVE TO cuz they will never find me :dry:

but,....and yes BUT; i think the whole you guys monitoring PM thing, IS SOOOO RUDE! i mean why call it "Private messaging" if it's not gonna be private!?

huh?! :shrug:
i mean like...this is all adding up. I thik i am putting somethign together. oh and one last question... If i am to get bannded again or...something like that. I wouldn't be bannded form the site temp. like the last time or just be demoted to regular user?

and IF i am just demoted....then what are the punishments a regular user get for not following code of conduct? :shrug:

i knwo my questions are kinda bothering and stupid (my spanish teacher just told me she is glad i am graduating and getting rid of me :tears:) but please at least shed some light on my comments...:)


thank you,
Alex.

[Behling]

First of all he means you need to remove all email addresses, messenger info, facebook links and myspace links from your profiles.
And we have to monitor PMs for members own safety, we have had several incidents with this in the past and now it has become necessary. I am not sure if demotion is going to be used as a punishment. People will be demoted if they give us a reason to by demonstrating that our trust in them was misplaced. However if a member does something ban worthy they will still be banned. And questions are never a bad thing as long as they make sense and are asked in an appropriate and respectful manner.

[sexyalex]

see...
see that right there. totally Mod material!

Thanks Behling. :D

[Paul_UK]

..btw before i go into my speech, Paul i have a question for u....u said;
We will remove all instant messenger details (MSN, Skype, email etc), social networking websites (FaceBook, MySpace etc) from profiles, and they will no longer be displayed under people's names in their posts.

right? then why did u also say...
Please edit your signature and profile as necessary now to remove this information.

i mean.... (Alex is confused :confused:)

The separate entries in your profiles for these items will be removed, with the information in them.

What I am asking is for people to remove them from other places in your profiles, such as signatures, blog entries, profile descriptions etc.

Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[Behling]

see...
see that right there. totally Mod material!

Thanks Behling.

No problem. I know this is new and you guys may not like it but EC's future depends on these changes. Feel free to ask any questions about the changes. Were hear to help and make sure this goes smoothly and again thanks for taking this so well (*hug*)

[Alexander]

Would you consider allowing the contact information section to be accessible to friends only? I don't mind having my screennames up in the first place, and I like that people can find them in one place.

I really like the idea of a forum for established members only. While general debates and stuff is fine for everyone to see, I sometimes feel weird posting more personal stuff in the forums since really anyone can come and read it.

[Paul_UK]

Would you consider allowing the contact information section to be accessible to friends only? I don't mind having my screennames up in the first place, and I like that people can find them in one place.

That was one of the options suggested in our discussions but it was not considered acceptable. We had to make that information "on request only".

[Willywilly92]

i think this completly sucks!! i am aware of the reaso for these changes but still it sucks. new people wont be able to meet the people they and will be restricted to only the new people, like me.

Also some people, like me, dont make alot of posts but instead like to talk to people on-on-one so it will be a lot harder for these people to become "established members" so they will never truly be members of the site.

I just think there should be another way to make the site safer other than taking the privliges of the newbies away, and its also not very appealing to people

[interstella]

I agree with Wilywilly92, and as far as I understand (I might be wrong) it was just ONE member who started all this. Can't you just ban him, block him from re-registering and get on with it? Sorry, don't mean to be rude but I'm quite pissed off (goddamn Spanish homework...)

[Martin]

It was one member, but that does nothing to stop other predators appearing on here. I think we would all love to keep the forum as it is, but sadly that wasn't a choice given to us. It was either remove communication off the public forum entirely or only allow it to approved members. Naturally we took the latter option to at least try and keep things as close to they are now as possible.

It is very extreme, even the site owners acknowledge that. However it is something that has to be done if EC is to continue. You don't have to like it, but it's something we all have to tolerate. The other EC staff aren't excited about the prospect of going through all the members with 100+ posts and changing their ranks, monitoring their safety and activity, approving new people and keeping the forum running as it is now. We could quite easily moan about it just as much as everybody else, but we want EC to carry on going and this is the only way.

I know lots of you are not happy with it, and i know that it makes the forum feel like an online version of Big Brother but it really was this solution or no communication at all. This was the best possible alternative for the forum, and (I hate to be blunt) it is useless suggesting things to us. We have looked to try and find better ways to ensure safety but this is what we had to settle with. I'm afraid moaning about it will not change anything. That isn't my way of trying to say "If you don't have a positive opinion then shut up", but just remember that the people you're moaning to about it have tried to find alternative ways and have gone to extreme efforts to make this as painless for you all as possible. I'm sorry that you all don't like it, but i also appreciate that the majority of you see why we have settled for this option and that you're going to stick it out.

[joeyconnick]

So I'm confused: Behling implied there had been several incidents but Martin above implies it was just one that tipped the scales, as it were.

Whatever the case, it is sucky but if you look at it one way, it's pretty stunning that there haven't been any major incidents (I'm assuming if there were other incidents they obviously weren't as serious as this) like this beforehand. What that says to me is the whole "online predation" thing, while undeniably real, is probably a lot more rare than the media would have us believe.

With respect to "private" messaging... they should never have been called "Private Messages" to begin with because the fact of the matter is that from Day One, Paul and any of the other admins (not mods unless they'd been granted extra privileges but admins) have been able to look at them whenever they wanted to. That's how hierarchical computer systems work: the administrator has free reign, essentially. I'm kinda surprised, actually, that there was no system for logging all PMs prior to this; I assumed they were all logged but apparently they only persisted for as long as people kept their copies.

Here's what I think is a good suggestion: change the name of "private messages" to "direct messages" or "one-to-one messages" or "mail member" or something that does not imply "privacy." I'm not saying anyone had the time or inclination to go snooping around in people PMs before this but that ability has always been there and it would be best to avoid potentially misleading people about their nature.

[joeyconnick]

I don't like this at all, but I understand perfectly well that this is needed.
Because of people like :***:, a wonderful forum like EC needs to be restricted. The people it'll affect the most are the new members who need help and PM someone they trust for advice, many are too shy to post on the public forum or just prefer to talk to one person.
I like sending PMs to new members, I'm very disappointed.

C'est la vie...If new members will be allowed to PM admins, mods, and experts, would it be possible to allow Established Members to PM new members? If you think about it, it makes a certain amount of sense... presumably "Established" members are trusted and have essentially been vetted, so there shouldn't really be an issue and it would address the situation JSG has raised above. And one assumes it would be possible, if you can limit new member PMs to admins, mods, and experts already.

[Martin]

So I'm confused: Behling implied there had been several incidents but Martin above implies it was just one that tipped the scales, as it were.
There have been several incidents in the past. Behling has referred to them, however I am only referring about the latest one as that is the most drastic and caused this revamp of how the forum works. The other past incidents played no part in these decisions, as far as i know of.

Here's what I think is a good suggestion: change the name of "private messages" to "direct messages" or "one-to-one messages" or "mail member" or something that does not imply "privacy." I'm not saying anyone had the time or inclination to go snooping around in people PMs before this but that ability has always been there and it would be best to avoid potentially misleading people about their nature.
I think there was a suggestion about changing them to something like 'Personal Messages'. I'm sure i read that somewhere, but don't quote me on it. I definetly remember the idea of changing it's name, and for some reason that name pops up. :eusa_doh:

Edit: I haven't ignored your above post either. I just think it would be better for an admin to address as they're the ones arranging the PM settings.

[joeyconnick]

Here's what I think is a good suggestion: change the name of "private messages" to "direct messages" or "one-to-one messages" or "mail member" or something that does not imply "privacy." I'm not saying anyone had the time or inclination to go snooping around in people PMs before this but that ability has always been there and it would be best to avoid potentially misleading people about their nature.
I think there was a suggestion about changing them to something like 'Personal Messages'. I'm sure i read that somewhere, but don't quote me on it. I definetly remember the idea of changing it's name, and for some reason that name pops up. :eusa_doh:Well I guess that would be convenient in that it would be the same initials: PM. :) It would be good to have a disclaimer when people sign up or when they first use them or in that section that mentions that they may be monitored simply for safety purposes. People might not like that but at least then no one could claim you hadn't let them know. They could only claim ignorance and that's never a good defence.

Edit: I haven't ignored your above post either. I just think it would be better for an admin to address as they're the ones arranging the PM settings.No worries.

[otc877]

I had noticed a bit of this going on around here...namely in the post your picture thread and I'm glad the admins are making these changes. I used to have a few pictures in my profile, but ever since I started to notice stuff like this going on I opted to delete all of my pictures... not saying that I was ever a target, just preventative.

At the same time, I agree with what Janvier was saying. I also like to PM new members, especially ones that are really struggling with their sexuality and just need somebody who understands to talk to. I worry that those members may not get the full "EC Experience" (minus the predators :)) that some of the older members received.

But, in the end, I support this decision and I hope you guys don't catch too much flak for implementing these changes.

...now to get those 500 posts...

[Paul_UK]

If new members will be allowed to PM admins, mods, and experts, would it be possible to allow Established Members to PM new members?

If we do that then we would also have to allow new members to PM established members (otherwise they cannot have a useful discussion). Doing this would defeat the whole point of preventing new members (that we know nothing about) PMing members to ask for off-site contact details or whatever.

I agree with your comment about the name "Private Messages". The idea of calling them "Personal Messages" (so we keep the PM abbreviation) has been suggested and this is something we should look at in due course to avoid confusion there. Maybe just calling them "Messages"?

Previous incidents were of a more minor nature so were dealt with by banning the members concerned. The nature of this incident meant we needed to bring it to the attention of the site owners who in turn needed to discuss it with their lawyers. This highlighted the problems with the excessively open way things have been done here and areas that needed addressing.

Another thing I should add here is that I also spoke to an expert in internet law and privacy etc here in the UK about this situation, and the information and advice from him was generally in line with the information and advice from the site owners' lawyers. This confirmed to me that the approach we are now having to take, although not what we would have liked, is reasonable.

[Paul_UK]

I had noticed a bit of this going on around here...namely in the post your picture thread and I'm glad the admins are making these changes. I used to have a few pictures in my profile, but ever since I started to notice stuff like this going on I opted to delete all of my pictures... not saying that I was ever a target, just preventative.

We are disappointed that these concerns are not bought to our attention more often, so we can note them and if necessary deal with them. Even if people don't think it is that serious, please let us know as if we get several such comments there may be more to it.

This is a general comment by the way, not aimed at you. :thumbsup:

...now to get those 500 posts...

There is nothing magic about the 500 post count. We are just dividing the membership into groups by post count to make the sorting process easier and more manageable. The 500+ group was the first one to do (and is nearly finished) because it was the easiest due to those members being generally well known to us. The 100-499 post group is next and has been started.

[joeyconnick]

If new members will be allowed to PM admins, mods, and experts, would it be possible to allow Established Members to PM new members?

If we do that then we would also have to allow new members to PM established members (otherwise they cannot have a useful discussion). Doing this would defeat the whole point of preventing new members (that we know nothing about) PMing members to ask for off-site contact details or whatever.Oh ok... that's tricksy.

Could the argument be made that by dint of being Established Members, however young, those members are "sensible" enough (or wouldn't have been made EMs) to ignore and report such requests?

Or (and I realise this isn't fair but it would still help with respect to making new members feel welcome) would it be possible to enable PMs to and from new members for Established Members who are above the age of legal majority? Not that an 18/19/20yo or really someone of any age wants to be approached by someone shady but generally in terms of concern of the law, once you're above a certain age you're considered "on your own" and so I can't imagine EC would get in trouble if an "adult" was approached by someone unsavory.

For example, JSG (or me, ha) is "of age" and an Established Member, so if he (or I) PM a new member, there would be no concern.

And I realise this stratifies things by age, which I am usually pretty set against, but it seems to me it would be better to have some ability to communicate with new members for a group a little bigger than just... 12, is it (mods and admins)?

Also... several mods are underage and yet they will be able to be contacted via PM by new members, so although definitely on a smaller scale, the "issue" will already exist.

[Blaz]

I'm okay with these changes, I just wish it accounted for members who are busy. I've been here for a while, but I only have like 60 posts.

[otc877]

We are disappointed that these concerns are not bought to our attention more often, so we can note them and if necessary deal with them. Even if people don't think it is that serious, please let us know as if we get several such comments there may be more to it.

This is a general comment by the way, not aimed at you. :thumbsup:


The reason I didn't report is because it was nothing concrete or blatant. Mostly just "innocent" compliments made by some older members directed to younger members that made me cringe a bit. :)

But, I'll be sure to let you guys know whenever I cringe ;)

[Lava421]

Also please note that these changes are not up for discussion, apart from minor details such as wording.

However I have created a separate thread here for discussing these changes.

Unless I misunderstand you, this is a contradiction?

You will appreciate that allowing unmonitored private communications to and between people under the age of 18 is a serious security concern and a legal minefield, especially when anyone could sign up and initiate such communication unchecked. The aim of these changes is to reduce this risk.

If your "aim of these changes is to reduce [the] risk" of "... communication ... between people under the age of 18," then:

everybody who is 18+ should be waived from being classified as regular members or established members. Unless, of course, you could be held liable if people lie about their ages. But if people do lie about this, wouldn't the liability be out of your hands?

[joeyconnick]

We are disappointed that these concerns are not bought to our attention more often, so we can note them and if necessary deal with them. Even if people don't think it is that serious, please let us know as if we get several such comments there may be more to it.

This is a general comment by the way, not aimed at you. :thumbsup:


The reason I didn't report is because it was nothing concrete or blatant. Mostly just "innocent" compliments made by some older members directed to younger members that made me cringe a bit. :)

But, I'll be sure to let you guys know whenever I cringe ;)It's a very complicated situation because what makes some people cringe is totally fine to others. Indeed, I've seen things here that are incredibly cringe-worthy to me that no one has apparently batted an eye at, and from people I think should know better. But as you point out, most of the time I just presume it's innocent unless I've really seen a pattern that leads me to believe otherwise.

Of course, just recently I made some comment about wanting to see a JSG workout video which was definitely meant at least somewhat salaciously. Of course I know JSG personally (as in we've actually met in person) plus we've "known" each other on here quite a while, plus he's an adult in the eyes of the law. Still, I'm sure for some people, if they just look at our respective ages, that is potentially cringe-worthy.

And then there's the fact that ages of consent differ considerably across the globe, and that saying something sexually-charged to someone isn't the same thing as actually propositioning them.

I do find myself self-censoring a lot when discussions trend in that direction, usually, but then I'm often hyper-aware of how negatively things can be viewed when there's an age gap between two people. Other people can be kinda oblivious to it, and because they know their motives are not evil, can get very defensive about things when called on it.

Hopefully some relatively relaxed happy medium can be struck. It's definitely not something you can judge in a black and white manner.

[Nicvcer]

Will "Visitor Messages" be affected?

[joeyconnick]

Also please note that these changes are not up for discussion, apart from minor details such as wording.

However I have created a separate thread here for discussing these changes.

Unless I misunderstand you, this is a contradiction?I think the discussion thread is to allow everyone to get more clarification of what's going on, why it's happening, how it's going to work. I took the first message as a statement that major changes have to be made, period.

Plus there's always the fact that it's best to start out clear and firm to avoid people who want to argue just for the sake of arguing, as opposed to people who want to make intelligent (and hopefully useful) comments.

[Nodnarb]

I'm fine with these changes as well. As far as PM's being completely "private", I always asumed that the mods/admin could monitor them, as that is how it is on other forums I belong to, so it doesn't seem like an "invasion of privacy" to me.

Unfortunately, the issue of being able to message new members who truly do need help seems to be very complicated. But I trust you guys to do what is best for EC and, most importantly, our safety.

[Paul_UK]

Could the argument be made that by dint of being Established Members, however young, those members are "sensible" enough (or wouldn't have been made EMs) to ignore and report such requests?

We are discussing a system of having a few members who are given a similar status to "Experts" though not that title, perhaps "Counsellors", "Friends" or something. They would be able to receive PMs from regular members and to PM them. We are thinking of people who are active and give good advice in the support sections, and would be able to give good one-to-one advice where wanted or needed. They would probably PM all new members to welcome and encourage them too.

This whole idea is still very much in discussion at the moment, and we weren't going to mention it until it was clarified a bit more, but since the point has been raised it seems reasonable to let you know what we are thinking. We are hoping this is going to help to bridge the gap somewhat and make newer members feel more welcome and supported.

[otc877]

We are disappointed that these concerns are not bought to our attention more often, so we can note them and if necessary deal with them. Even if people don't think it is that serious, please let us know as if we get several such comments there may be more to it.

This is a general comment by the way, not aimed at you. :thumbsup:


The reason I didn't report is because it was nothing concrete or blatant. Mostly just "innocent" compliments made by some older members directed to younger members that made me cringe a bit. :)

But, I'll be sure to let you guys know whenever I cringe ;)It's a very complicated situation because what makes some people cringe is totally fine to others. Indeed, I've seen things here that are incredibly cringe-worthy to me that no one has apparently batted an eye at, and from people I think should know better. But as you point out, most of the time I just presume it's innocent unless I've really seen a pattern that leads me to believe otherwise.

Of course, just recently I made some comment about wanting to see a JSG workout video which was definitely meant at least somewhat salaciously. Of course I know JSG personally (as in we've actually met in person) plus we've "known" each other on here quite a while, plus he's an adult in the eyes of the law. Still, I'm sure for some people, if they just look at our respective ages, that is potentially cringe-worthy.

And then there's the fact that ages of consent differ considerably across the globe, and that saying something sexually-charged to someone isn't the same thing as actually propositioning them.

I do find myself self-censoring a lot when discussions trend in that direction, usually, but then I'm often hyper-aware of how negatively things can be viewed when there's an age gap between two people. Other people can be kinda oblivious to it, and because they know their motives are not evil, can get very defensive about things when called on it.

Hopefully some relatively relaxed happy medium can be struck. It's definitely not something you can judge in a black and white manner.

Exactly the reason I didn't report. I just assumed that if it was bothering the person it was directed at, they would report it. I tend to mind my own business.

Question, will there be some identifiable tag or soemthign that lets other members know who's in which group?

[Tom]

As has been said before people like to PM new members, maybe you should have a group of people, other than mods and admins, that these can PM for a certain length of time just to get their bearings and be helped by more experienced members, and it would provide them some one to be able to speak to if they dont want to post something in the public threads. this would mean that only people that you specifically ask to do this and trust can send PM's to the new members, and it will mean it is easier to keep track of the conversations, and im sure that if one of the ppl you chose thought the new member might not be who thy are or a predator or such then they can contact a admin/mod so they can make their own decisions.

this seems to satisfy most of the issues i can see, i just done know if it is possible to do with the programming of vbulletin.

[edit just read pauls last post which basically says this]

[Psychedelic Bookmarks]

I'd just like to say that although I'm very sad that this whole debacle even occurred (and I wonder who the predator was...? But I suppose you can't say and I understand that) I support all moves to protect new members. If I had been preyed on when I first came to EC it would have been a f:***: disaster. That's just not something you can risk.

[Paul_UK]

Also please note that these changes are not up for discussion, apart from minor details such as wording.

However I have created a separate thread here for discussing these changes.

Unless I misunderstand you, this is a contradiction?I think the discussion thread is to allow everyone to get more clarification of what's going on, why it's happening, how it's going to work. I took the first message as a statement that major changes have to be made, period.

Yep, that's correct Joey. What I was trying to say (perhaps not that clearly) when I said "not up for discussion" is that the actual changes are set and not changeable. Perhaps "not for negotiation" would have been better wording.

However people obviously will want to discuss the changes, clarify what they mean for the site and its members etc, and how we can make the transition as painless as possible. That is what this thread is for.

[Paul_UK]

Question, will there be some identifiable tag or soemthign that lets other members know who's in which group?

Yes, we will be doing that. Similar to the Moderator and Admin ones but different colours.

[joeyconnick]

Could the argument be made that by dint of being Established Members, however young, those members are "sensible" enough (or wouldn't have been made EMs) to ignore and report such requests?

We are discussing a system of having a few members who are given a similar status to "Experts" though not that title, perhaps "Counsellors", "Friends" or something. They would be able to receive PMs from regular members and to PM them. We are thinking of people who are active and give good advice in the support sections, and would be able to give good one-to-one advice where wanted or needed. They would probably PM all new members to welcome and encourage them too.

This whole idea is still very much in discussion at the moment, and we weren't going to mention it until it was clarified a bit more, but since the point has been raised it seems reasonable to let you know what we are thinking. We are hoping this is going to help to bridge the gap somewhat and make newer members feel more welcome and supported.That sounds like a cool solution! "Counsellors" is probably a problematic term (as I kind of find "experts," too) because it implies a formality that may make people think the person is "officially" qualified and in so many ways there's no way to verify it even if they were. So "Friends" or "Greeters" or something else welcoming but not easily confused as any kind of official thing in the "outside" world. Maybe "EC Advisor?" Since you're talking about people who give good advice and I don't think "advisor" can be mistaken for any one formal role in the "real world." Like there are "Residence Advisors" at university (here, at least) who are just people with jobs, not people with formal qualifications.

[Paul_UK]

this seems to satisfy most of the issues i can see, i just done know if it is possible to do with the programming of vbulletin.

I have no idea how we will do the PM permissions in vBulletin yet. I'm hoping there is an add-on out there to simplify this, otherwise I'll probably be doing some custom programming...

[ccdd]

I would like to say that I am 100% behind these changes, and that I am horrified and upset at the events that seem to have brought it about.

Online safety, especially on a site like this, where people come when they are especially vulnerable, is absolutely essential. I would say that it should be the site's number one priority, which overrides all other concerns. Although that said, I am really happy that, given the difficult legal (and ethical) circumstances they are working in, the mods were able to come to a compromise whereby the valuable PM and chat room facilities can be retained in some form.

I had already assumed that all PMs were kept, actually. I think that the suggestion whereby people are notified of this will also put potential abusers of the system off using them anyway. Random viewing of threads, anonymously, by a select few, I see is necessary too, to prevent abuse of the system. I myself am very happy this is being implemented.

I think that being able to reverse decisions as to whether someone is an established member or not is also very important, and I like the fact that once received, it is still subject to good behaviour, and that it can be subject to review.

I, for one, would have found these extra safety features an additional reason to join, especially if I was younger, and I find them an extra incentive to stay now.

I am really upset that there have been incidences of older members preying on younger members. Anything that can be done to prevent this and ensure the safety of all EC's members - including the older ones who don't want to be stalked or harrassed either - is necessary and welcome in my opinion.

I would like to say a good thank you to Paul and all the mods for making what must have been a difficult decision. And thank you for taking the time and energy to come up with a compromise whereby safety can be ensured, and some of the very valuable features of EC can still be kept. I would like to thank them for taking the time to go through all the members to establish their membership, which I am sure cannot be a fun task. And I'd like to thank them for caring enough about the members on here to take our safety seriously, even to the point of making decisions which some might dislike.

The very active moderation of this site is one reason why I remain, and I like to think that all the friends I've made on here are as safe as I'd like them to be :)

[JSG]

Nooooooooo !!
Post your pic thread is dead :cry:
This is the 2nd time it's been closed and quite possibly the last time :(

[Asteroid]

I'm supporting the changes being implemented. Although having joined EC, I was and still am a bit concerned that everything we post is visible on the web that can easily be exploited by others. The enhanced security features will definitely alleviate some of these concerns. Plus, the securer the site is, the more likely it is that others who need help will join. I do feel that it is important to keep this site as safe as possible for current and future members.

I can only echo ccdd's words: Thank you to the team for caring about the safety of all members and for undertaking this challenge.

[jazzrawr]

I think this is actually a pretty cool idea.
One of the big reasons that my mom doesn't like this site so much is because she hates that internet forums aren't safe enough, and this is adding the safety factor.
i mean, it will be kinda sucky not being able to pm new users, but it makes everything safer in case a new user isn't here for the right reasons...
so thanks guys. I'm not mad ^.^ :D
and thanks for doing all this work just for us!!

[Paul_UK]

Will "Visitor Messages" be affected?

They are part of profiles so will be limited to established members, the same as blogs and albums.

They seem to cause some confusion as I think some people don't realise they are publicly viewable and use them like PMs.

That sounds like a cool solution! "Counsellors" is probably a problematic term (as I kind of find "experts," too) because it implies a formality that may make people think the person is "officially" qualified and in so many ways there's no way to verify it even if they were. So "Friends" or "Greeters" or something else welcoming but not easily confused as any kind of official thing in the "outside" world. Maybe "EC Advisor?" Since you're talking about people who give good advice and I don't think "advisor" can be mistaken for any one formal role in the "real world." Like there are "Residence Advisors" at university (here, at least) who are just people with jobs, not people with formal qualifications.

Yes, I agree with you about the naming. Counsellors is a sort of "working title" we have used in the discussions, but as I mentioned this is still being planned and discussed (though something will happen if technically possible), and the title for them is part of that. There are some good suggestions in your post. :thumbsup:

Nooooooooo !!
Post your pic thread is dead :cry:
This is the 2nd time it's been closed and quite possibly the last time :(

I'm sorry, but yes it has been removed for now. In light of this discussion we have already had a few people asking us to delete their photos from it, so it was easiest just to remove it from view for now. I don't know whether it will be back, but I think it is unlikely.

We now have a much better album system though, where comments can be left. There is also the view of the latest pics and random pics on the Members tab (which will also be unavailable for regular members) to help you find them too.

I think an "Album Updates" thread would be a good replacement for the picture posting one. People can put the new pics in their albums then announce the additions in the thread so others can go and take a look and leave comments. It achieves the same thing without having all the pictures out there for everyone to see.

We could have a "Blog Updates" thread too, where people can announce their new blog entries.

[Asteroid]

I think an "Album Updates" thread would be a good replacement for the picture posting one. People can put the new pics in their albums then announce the additions in the thread so others can go and take a look and leave comments. It achieves the same thing without having all the pictures out there for everyone to see.

We could have a "Blog Updates" thread too, where people can announce their new blog entries.

I like the idea of an 'Album Updates' and 'Blog Updates" threads. :)

[LOVEjames]

I adore everything being done, and it really seems to be a step for the better. :)

[Kat22]

This was a hard decision to make, I am sure, but thank you to everyone who worked so hard to keep EC from simply being shut down. With change comes greatness, right? I'm totally willing to adapt to the change to keep members feeling safe here!!!

Way to go mods and admins! (&&&)

Edit: Btw. I had no idea that any of the older/younger member problems were occuring :-S

[MeskElil]

I like the idea of having "counselors" for the younger members. They are, after all, the ones who really need advice. I think that that would be the best way to help them with things. And again, I appreciate everything that the mods have done to make this site safer (and still keep it helpful and workable.)

[Chaos]

I've been a member of EC for two and a half years, but I don't have as many posts as some people who've joined this year. I barely just have over 100 posts.

The criteria for established members talks about making as little as 100 posts to be considered for an "established member" account....

100 posts is fair, but the way people obtain those posts isn't.

Some people just spam lots to get more posts. Some people, like me, post sporadically, but I personally think that my posts mean more. Why? Well, for one thing, I didn't really spam. I will post in the game threads at times, but some people do it all of the time, therefore their post counts are pretty high.

Personally, I think that to be an established member you need posts that are more meaningful... So posts that take time to write or require thinking. I've run many successul web forums with thousands of members and what we do is have posts not count to post counts in game or spam sections.

Wouldn't that be more fair? It makes sense to me.

Edit:

One other thing. I think that it's about time that changes like these happened.

[MeskElil]

I've been a member of EC for two and a half years, but I don't have as many posts as some people who've joined this year. I barely just have over 100 posts.

The criteria for established members talks about making as little as 100 posts to be considered for an "established member" account....

100 posts is fair, but the way people obtain those posts isn't.

Some people just spam lots to get more posts. Some people, like me, post sporadically, but I personally think that my posts mean more. Why? Well, for one thing, I didn't really spam. I will post in the game threads at times, but some people do it all of the time, therefore their post counts are pretty high.

Personally, I think that to be an established member you need posts that are more meaningful... So posts that take time to write or require thinking. I've run many successul web forums with thousands of members and what we do is have posts not count to post counts in game or spam sections.

Wouldn't that be more fair? It makes sense to me.

Edit:

One other thing. I think that it's about time that changes like these happened.

Well, they're looking over every member to see if they're EM material. That means not just post counts, but helpfulness and whatnot.
Also, if that is your main focus, I don't think you would be turned down if you applied to be an EM, which you will be able to do shortly.
The post count is simply a starting point for the mods to start reviewing people to see if they should be an EM.

[Tom]

one issue that i have noticed in the chatroom is people that regularly enter the chat, but rarely enter the forums and so have a low post count but love the chatroom and might not be immediately considered for EM, and so may have to wait a while to get back in there. i think that the application process should be started a few days before this is released maybe, finish all the programming first by all means so it is ready to go but allowing the few extra days for applications could help the transition to the new system as there will be fwer people that are anoyed by not being allowed in the chatroom, Derek and Martin should know almost all of those that would be affected the most by this and so maybe they could give these people slight priority as without the chatroom half of them will disappear.

[Martin]

All applications will be looked at individually. That is what makes it hard to give a set criteria like "100+ posts". We will mainly be looking at peoples behaviour, and of course we will need a fair amount of posts for that to assess accurately. That isn't to say they will need 100, but that's not to say 10 will be enough either. The best thing to do would be to apply. We will read your posts and check them so if you aren't an active poster but you behave sensibly and any forum background checks we do are satisfactory then there would be no reason for us to reject you. However you do need to show that this type of behaviour is consistent and not the result of logging on once a day, posting 1 or 2 mildly helpful posts for one week and then expecting access to communication features. Worrying about post count is not really worth it as you can just use your common sense to judge what you consider to be enough time and posts for somebody to get a decent impression of you. Forum checks done will either help your application or result in it being denied, but if you are denied then it will be explained why if you aren't sure.

As for Chatroom regulars: The current Chatmods will be playing a part in the application process. Any input they give will be valued as they will know the member better than anybody on the staff team. Even the most minor incidents are logged in the mod forum so we can do a fairly accurate check on the member based on them. If they seem to pass these requirements then there is no reason for them to not be given access to Chat.

The critera has not been finalised yet, and it is hard making one when every application is unique. We will try our best to enforce the criteria set, however we are more interested in getting members ranked to the correct group than making them wait. If we see a member who we all agree deserves ranking then we have no reasons to not rank them because they may only have 98 posts or whatever. I wouldn't dwell on these criteria motives too much. They are mainly there to help us, however the main influence will come from the users themselves.

[TriBi]

Well said MeskElil - you are absolutely correct.

The idea is to try and screen for potential predators...and unfortunately, sometimes these may masquerade as somebody they aren't. Sometimes they can be easily spotted (yes, we have banned before for this reason) but sometimes that may not be the case - hence the need for caution.

That said, the way we are approaching things is just the most logical way to begin working through things. Those people who have been regulars on the Forum, have made their views, personalities etc known over a period of time are the ones with whom we have most information to work - and easiest to use the "broad brush" approach to say "we think they are OK".

The ones on whom we have less information will naturally require a little more time. I'm sorry if that disadvantages some initially, but we will be working to make the whole process as fair as we can. Please realise that this has literally happened in a whirlwind in the last few days. The number of hours all the Mod team has spent in discussions is way beyond anything I can ever recall before on EC - and as for the amount of time that Paul has personally put into this - I shudder to think. I doubt he has done much 'work' (of the type that earns him a living) in the last week.

[darkness]

We are discussing a system of having a few members who are given a similar status to "Experts" though not that title, perhaps "Counsellors", "Friends" or something. They would be able to receive PMs from regular members and to PM them. We are thinking of people who are active and give good advice in the support sections, and would be able to give good one-to-one advice where wanted or needed. They would probably PM all new members to welcome and encourage them too.


This is a great idea... I have to say I don't think I would have lasted on EC if it was not for some of the welcoming PM's I received from other members
(&&&)(&&&)(&&&)(&&&)(&&&)(&&&)(&&&)(&&&)(&&&)(&&&)(&&&)(&&&)(&&&)(&&&)(&&&)

[joeyconnick]

That sounds like a cool solution! "Counsellors" is probably a problematic term (as I kind of find "experts," too) because it implies a formality that may make people think the person is "officially" qualified and in so many ways there's no way to verify it even if they were. So "Friends" or "Greeters" or something else welcoming but not easily confused as any kind of official thing in the "outside" world. Maybe "EC Advisor?" Since you're talking about people who give good advice and I don't think "advisor" can be mistaken for any one formal role in the "real world." Like there are "Residence Advisors" at university (here, at least) who are just people with jobs, not people with formal qualifications.

Yes, I agree with you about the naming. Counsellors is a sort of "working title" we have used in the discussions, but as I mentioned this is still being planned and discussed (though something will happen if technically possible), and the title for them is part of that. There are some good suggestions in your post. :thumbsup:Thanks...

We now have a much better album system though, where comments can be left. There is also the view of the latest pics and random pics on the Members tab (which will also be unavailable for regular members) to help you find them too.

I think an "Album Updates" thread would be a good replacement for the picture posting one. People can put the new pics in their albums then announce the additions in the thread so others can go and take a look and leave comments. It achieves the same thing without having all the pictures out there for everyone to see.To be honest, I think the "post your pic" thread has always been problematic with respect to increasing the divide between certain groups of members based on their personal attractiveness. While it's nice for people to get positive feedback, what about everyone who either didn't feel self-confident enough to post their pic or who posted and got no or next to no feedback? Especially in light of how certain repeat posters often got people fawning over their photos?

Having that all in one thread really materially changed the tenor of EC, in my opinion. Please understand I know that was not at all the intent of the thread, nor the conscious intent of the people who posted there... after all, I posted there once or twice myself and certainly not to try to damage EC or anything. I just think that the thread inadvertently had this effect.

While the same type of feedback can happen in albums now, it won't be this massive list of people where at a quick run through you can really see the overall general consensus on "who's hot, who's not" and I can't see that being anything but incredibly positive.

[CrimsonThunder]

Im not a fan of these changes at all. Reminds me of another forum I used to go at, although that was only 10 posts there to have access to the full forum. I think 100 is a bit too high as not everyone posts lots.

I think new members will feel like outcasts, wasn't there a big thing a while ago about members feeling un-noticed? This will probably add to that. >.>

It'll be way harder for the new members to make friends on this site now, which is why I loved it at the start.

Why dont you just make it so you have to approve all PM's? Then new members can PM as well. All I can see is PM's will just be "Add me to MSN." etc.

I think thats all I had to say.

[LOVEjames]

I'm confused, everyone is talking like the EM won't be able to connect with the RM at -all-, and I thought we could like... still post on the same message boards and everything. Like, we could greet them in the introductions thread and everything... o.o We just won't be able to PM them.

[MeskElil]

You're right, LOVEjames. There was just talk of a separate forum for EMs, and I think that got a little out of hand and people thought that it meant EMs and RMs wouldn't be able to communicate at all, which would be bad considering once an RM was made an EM they would lose all the friends they made...
That's not what the mods meant at all.

[joeyconnick]

Im not a fan of these changes at all. Reminds me of another forum I used to go at, although that was only 10 posts there to have access to the full forum. I think 100 is a bit too high as not everyone posts lots.

I think new members will feel like outcasts, wasn't there a big thing a while ago about members feeling un-noticed? This will probably add to that. >.>

It'll be way harder for the new members to make friends on this site now, which is why I loved it at the start.

Why dont you just make it so you have to approve all PM's? Then new members can PM as well. All I can see is PM's will just be "Add me to MSN." etc.

I think thats all I had to say.I'm pretty sure there are probably WAAAAY too many PMs flying back and forth for them all to be moderated. That's asking too much of the mods.

The changes do suck but you can see why they're necessary from a legal perspective. EC has owners... it may be that all it would take is one angry parent's lawsuit and EC would probably cease to exist completely, so it is better to try to avoid the kind of situation that would engender conflict of that manner.

From a totally different perspective, it would suck a lot more than messaging restrictions if someone from EC were seriously victimised by someone who found them via EC. I don't honestly think it would be EC's fault, ethically, but I can see why EC would want to take as many reasonable steps as they could to prevent that.

As is usually the case with the world, a tiny fraction of creeps tend to spoil things for the rest of us.

[Kimi]

We will install a system to automatically log and permanently store all PMs, so that they are not lost even if both the sender and recipient delete them. Admins and selected moderators will be able to view these and will carry out checks from time to time to make sure the PM system is not being abused.

Now, that makes me wanna be a selected mod:badgrin:

Anyways, I wanna know what will happen to the old PMs that I exchanged with others?
Will they be gone when new system installed?

[LOVEjames]

I don't think that the PM logging feature is there so the mods can just look at every PM sent, I'm pretty sure it's more there just in case a complaint is received but the person who was harassed accidentally deleted the PM or in similar situations.

From what I see, the only changes that are really going to be made are that EMs won't be able to sent PMs to RMs (lotsa _Ms xD), and RMs won't be able to enter the chatroom or send PMs until they've proven that they're here for actual reasons. And from what I've heard so far, even if you don't post a whole lot, what's in your posts is going to be what matters. I mean, if you have 120 posts of just <5 word posts in the Fun & Games section and you've been here for a week, your application will probably (from what I've inferred, so don't quote me) be denied. While someone who's made 30 posts in various places that were actually separated by paragraphs and seems to be well thought out, and you've been here for the same amount of time, your application is probably (again, don't quote me) going to be approved, or has more chance of being approved than the other person.

And I totallllly know that I'm saying this on no authority whatsoever, but I'm just trying to help. :)

[Willywilly92]

Could the argument be made that by dint of being Established Members, however young, those members are "sensible" enough (or wouldn't have been made EMs) to ignore and report such requests?

We are discussing a system of having a few members who are given a similar status to "Experts" though not that title, perhaps "Counsellors", "Friends" or something. They would be able to receive PMs from regular members and to PM them. We are thinking of people who are active and give good advice in the support sections, and would be able to give good one-to-one advice where wanted or needed. They would probably PM all new members to welcome and encourage them too.

This whole idea is still very much in discussion at the moment, and we weren't going to mention it until it was clarified a bit more, but since the point has been raised it seems reasonable to let you know what we are thinking. We are hoping this is going to help to bridge the gap somewhat and make newer members feel more welcome and supported.


like would u have to be an established member to do this cuz im not one but im really good at giving advice to people who really need it. i have been a peer mediater at my school for the past three years and i would really want to do it somewhere where it really it matters.:icon_bigg

[TyraBanksIsFierce]

What if you could like automatically flag PM's sent from New members for moderation?

[step49x]

Overall, I can understand why these new rules were added. The one issue I had was with limiting PMs to new members, which I could see being taken care of with a welcome committee (how's that for a group name?). For me, it's always been a given that admin could see PMs, and I really don't expect much to change (besides them reminding people, once again, that they have the ability to do this).

I do have to say, I am always amazed at the activity of the forum leaders, here. Thanks for all your work. I know people won't always like your decisions, but that's life. You can make some of the people happy all of the time, and all of the people happy some of the time, but you can't make all of the people happy all of the time...

What if you could like automatically flag PM's sent from New members for moderation?
Even if mods are just moderating the PMs of new members, it's still way too much work to expect them to do. Just because they have the ability to read everyone's PM, doesn't mean they will.

If I was a mod, I wouldn't want to read everyone's PMs. I'd rather focus my attention on things everyone sees (the forum, the blogs, etc), than things only a couple people will see (PMs).

[CrimsonThunder]

Im not a fan of these changes at all. Reminds me of another forum I used to go at, although that was only 10 posts there to have access to the full forum. I think 100 is a bit too high as not everyone posts lots.

I think new members will feel like outcasts, wasn't there a big thing a while ago about members feeling un-noticed? This will probably add to that. >.>

It'll be way harder for the new members to make friends on this site now, which is why I loved it at the start.

Why dont you just make it so you have to approve all PM's? Then new members can PM as well. All I can see is PM's will just be "Add me to MSN." etc.

I think thats all I had to say.I'm pretty sure there are probably WAAAAY too many PMs flying back and forth for them all to be moderated. That's asking too much of the mods.

The changes do suck but you can see why they're necessary from a legal perspective. EC has owners... it may be that all it would take is one angry parent's lawsuit and EC would probably cease to exist completely, so it is better to try to avoid the kind of situation that would engender conflict of that manner.

From a totally different perspective, it would suck a lot more than messaging restrictions if someone from EC were seriously victimised by someone who found them via EC. I don't honestly think it would be EC's fault, ethically, but I can see why EC would want to take as many reasonable steps as they could to prevent that.

As is usually the case with the world, a tiny fraction of creeps tend to spoil things for the rest of us.

Yeah I forgot about that, then it would take ages to PM people, usually they are instant replies but due to that it would take a while. XD

[Grantious]

Hey Hey,

These changes remind me of the system that the chadzboyz forum uses new members had to have 10 Posts or more to even be reviewed to be classified a full member. The system on this site will be a lot different from what I've read but some of the best changes seem to be made. I'm way happy with the changes I believe they are the most logical and sensible step and the idea of a separate forum section for pictures and stuff for full members would be heaps of fun

I remember back when i was at chadz (b4 i moved to this forum; because EC IS DA BOMB ha ha ha) that the member system gave me a sense of security. So Good Luck with the changes got my full support :-P

xoxoxo.

[Sam]

I think its a good idea. While some may not be happy about it, Safety is very important and the mods just want to make sure that this site can be a safe place to come to. This site is a place to meet others like us and get support and have fun, not to be the subject of somebodys twisted, perverted thoughts.

[cc6log]

Well these changes sound like they are necessary the survival and legitimacy of this site. I came here mainly for the chatroom which was a nice way to talk about things on the internet without leaving things on here that are searchable by google or anything similar. I'm not bitter at all here I just want to say that it was fun while it lasted. I understand there is no way to differentiate me between the idiot who was trying to inappropriately do something or other through this site, this leaves me with no qualms. So to all I discussed things with in the chatroom over these last few weeks, thank you. And unless I change my mind about posting publicly about something I am not at all public with in my own life, this will be the end of my time here "whenever I officially am unable to get into the chatroom" If it comes to that as I see it most likely will then "Good Luck and Good Night" everyone. I guess one last question would be if anyone knows any chatrooms similar to this one that may be of use for me?
cc6log

[firecausesburns]

It's a shame that this has to happen, but I think it's a good idea.

[Blitzkrieg]

I think the changes are a good step toward providing safety towards EC members, it's nerve racking that predators have gone from the streets to the computers. Naturally just as we have police on the streets we should have some form of protection the younger members who are just here to seek advice and meet people with similar interests. I'd much rather be a part of a site where it took time to become established than one where just anyone could come online with intentions to deceive others. Thanks Mods for taking the time to make changes for everyones safety. :)

[charlie12]

I support all these changes, 100%. It's a shame that one person has to ruin things for everyone else and that the mods have to take legal action. It's just more work for the mods, but I am so glad the mods are taking legal action in this and that they are making all these changes for everyones safety here at EC.

[darkestknight]

Seriously, I don't mind about these changes. Links to Facebooks and all of those social networking sites should be not stated inside the user details - it'll be quite dangerous in terms of security, and many people are below age 18 are inside this place as well.

I don't mind having my PM's all being scanned as long as they keep it secret and not leaked out to the forum too.

It's for everyone's greater good. I admit that I like that place so much, I don't mind making this place safer for everyone too!: D

[interstella]

When will these changes come into place?

[CrimsonThunder]

Im not a fan of these changes at all. Reminds me of another forum I used to go at, although that was only 10 posts there to have access to the full forum.
Hey Hey,

These changes remind me of the system that the chadzboyz forum uses new members had to have 10 Posts or more to even be reviewed to be classified a full member.

Lawl. :p

[Hln D]

I agree with LOVEjames, a few posts back. I don't have any issue with the PM logging, because I would imagine that it's mainly for reporting reasons, as James stated.

It is a real shame that somebody had to go and spoil things, but if it means that we'll all be safer, then I'm not complaining. ^_^

[joeyconnick]

I support all these changes, 100%. It's a shame that one person has to ruin things for everyone else and that the mods have to take legal action. It's just more work for the mods, but I am so glad the mods are taking legal action in this and that they are making all these changes for everyones safety here at EC.Just to clear something up: the mods are not taking legal action. They're taking precautionary actions (advised by lawyers) to avoid legal actions, really.

[Paul_UK]

In answer to a few of the points raised:

As Martin has said, the criteria for established member status is still being finalised, and actually going through the member list is helping us to shape that. Whether there is a minimum post limit for applying is also being considered. There does need to be enough posts on the forum for us to form a reasonable opinion, so a figure of 10 or 20 isn't going to work, however it may not need to be as high as 100. If the posts to get to any threshold are trivial ones in Fun and Games they obviously won't give us much to work on. Quality, not quantity! ;)

With the PM logging, we obviously will not be looking at them all. We will be looking at them if we suspect something untoward is happening, and we will probably to spot checks of say 50 or 100 recent PMs (maybe displayed without sender and recipient names) sometimes. We will not be revealing any information in them outside the mod team.

In some ways this is similar to how we review the chatroom logs. We don't read it all (that would be way too tedious), but we do scan for inappropriate stuff, and we do look at problematic discussions in detail.

None of your existing PMs will be lost when the logging system is introduced. All that will happen is that all PMs sent from that date will also be copied to the logs. I will probably add a message onto the PM sending page saying that they are logged and may be see read by site staff.

With regard to timescales, that is not fixed yet. We should have a better idea in a few days, as I will be looking at the technical changes needed (using a copy of the site on a test server) this weekend. Once we know what is needed (whether custom code needs to be written etc) we will have a better idea. If the technical changes can be achieved with existing settings and add-ons then we could be looking at the end of June or early July. I will update the announcement thread when we know more. :thumbsup:

[Beebo]

I think we should be able to delete a comment someone has posted on our webpage. What do you think?

[SamAlex728]

I think we should be able to delete a comment someone has posted on our webpage. What do you think?

we can
check the box next to it, scroll down, make sure the drop-down box is on delete, and hit ok

[Paul_UK]

I think you can also set your preferences so that you approve comments before they appear, but I'm not sure about that.

[moonlight]

I think that these are very reasonable changes, and anything that will keep the members of the forum safe works for me.
I just hope that people wont start spamming in order to get a higher post number in order to get Established Member status.

[TriBi]

^ I think I can safely say that having a certain number of posts WILL NOT guarantee anyone Established Member status. We are merely talking about a benchmark that will likely be applied to anyone, about whom we have no other knowledge, before we would generally consider them.

Just reaching a certain number of posts doesn't mean anything - people will be assessed based on what information we have.

[Quitex]

I must say, first of all, sorry to be absent for a while, and I am so pissed that people abused of this forum. Such a great place to be. :(
I have mixed feelings towards this. Meh.
Sorry If I am cold or anything. I just... feel weird. I guess it is a good thing for our security so I will heartily support.

[Paul_UK]

Several people have PMd me about aspects of this. I have been busy with working on the details so I have not been able to reply to many of these yet. I have asked other mods to reply to some of them, and the others I will hopefully get to soon. Please don't feel you are being ignored, we are just very busy at the moment.

If you have a question or comment about all this which you don't want to post here, please use the Ask The Mods section (where only you and the mod team can see your posts) rather than sending PMs. That will allow whichever member of the team is available or is working on that aspect to respond to you.

[Jim1454]

I'm really happy that much of the reaction here has been positive. I think the changes strike a very reasonable balance.

And with respect to PMs limiting the benefit of this site to 'Newbies'... I rarely used the PM fuctionality when I first joined. I still don't use it all that much. I found that just reading the public forums helped me tremendously when I was coming to terms with my orientation.

I know everyone is different. But I don't think this limits the helpfulness of EC much at all.

I'd also like to thank Paul and the other mods for their efforts around these changes. I've been busy at work and at home and haven't been as available to contribute. I continue to be VERY touched and amazed at the dedication that exists - all on a volunteer basis - to the management of this site. THANKS GUYS!!!

[Paul_UK]

I think an "Album Updates" thread would be a good replacement for the picture posting one. People can put the new pics in their albums then announce the additions in the thread so others can go and take a look and leave comments. It achieves the same thing without having all the pictures out there for everyone to see.

We could have a "Blog Updates" thread too, where people can announce their new blog entries.

I like the idea of an 'Album Updates' and 'Blog Updates" threads. :)

They are now here (http://www.emptyclosets.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11836) and here (http://www.emptyclosets.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11837). :thumbsup:

[snapcat]

Paul, I think you all have done an outstanding job. I think the changes you have put in place set a high benchmark for other websites to aspire to. Well done!

[panda]

One of the most important things is that the Newbie to EC still gets all the personal attention that's possible. That still seems to work with the new format.

Thanks to Paul for so much extra work ,and all the other Mods for their time and input.:kiss:

[Hidden Angel]

This kind off frustrates me since I haven't made enough posts to be an established member but I see there is a need for it and see the point.

[Paul_UK]

One of the most important things is that the Newbie to EC still gets all the personal attention that's possible.

Yes, that is something we are very concious with these changes.

This kind off frustrates me since I haven't made enough posts to be an established member but I see there is a need for it and see the point.

There is no magic post count. We will probably only be reviewing members with 100+ posts initially, to keep the task manageable. However there will be a system for applying for established status, and we will have that in place a week or so BEFORE we apply the restrictions, so that anyone who has not been reviewed or told they will have established status can apply then.

On the "established member" approval process, out of those with 400 or more posts who have visited here in the last two months, over 90% will get established status and have been PM'd. The remaining ones are still being checked (it's a big job with so many to do) and at least some of these should get established status too. We are now working through people in descending post-count order, probably down to 100 posts eventually.

[otc877]

I know everyone is extremely busy working on these changes.

With that, I'm curious if there's a target date that these changes will be put into effect by?

[TriBi]

^ Not at the moment. We are working toward trying to get it all happening as soon as possible - but there is a lot to be done.

Not least of that is what needs to be done in recoding/reprogramming. Paul is going to be busy in his real job, so he has asked the site owners if any of their people can assist with that to help speed things up.

[Paul_UK]

The main technical issue I have at the moment is making the PM system work how we want it. There are no settings within the vBulletin software to control which usergroups can and cannot send PMs to which other usergroups. We need this to work so that regular members can send and receive PMs to/from moderators and advisers, but not to/from other users. The only option in the software is to enable or disable PMs for usergroups completely.

I was hoping there would be an add-on available to do what we need but I haven't found one yet (though I haven't had much time to look).

As TriBi mentioned, I have asked the site owners if any of their people can get involved and help us with that aspect. I am very busy with real work (the type that brings in money) for at least the next fortnight.

It will probably need some custom programming, which would need someone who understands PHP and is also familiar with the vBulletin plug-in system. If any of you have such knowledge and want to help, please PM me.

[Alexander]

how are the user groups defined in the code? a variable? send me over the definitions and the pm pages and I'll see what I can do :)

[Paul_UK]

It's not that easy. It has to hook into the vBulletin add-ons system so it means no modifications to vBulletin core code (otherwise we can't update vBulletin without reapplying the changes). Everything in vBulletin is stored in the MySQL database and is retrieved with MySQL database queries as needed.

I have found an add-on that may form a useful starting point. It is a daily PM quota one, but it hooks into the right part of vBulletin (when a PM is sent) and can display error messages. So the vBulletin hooks and interface are there, I would need to change the checks it does and the messages it displays. So better than starting from scratch, as I only need to think about the logic and not the interfacing.

[gabriel1]

It is unfortunate that changes like this need to be made, but the goal of Empty Closets must always be a safe haven for those under majority members. I just think it is a shame that things happen on a "safe haven" site to warrant these changes.

[Psychedelic Bookmarks]

Have fun with those changes tomorrow! It sounds like several hours of S Club 7 is in order :D

[LOVEjames]

I'm a little confused as to the Visitor Messages being taken away, I mean... can't you just announce that they're public and everything? It seemed pretty obvious to me, since when you're posting a message on someone's profile, you can see other people's messages and everything. Personally, I like the visitor messages and everything. <3

[Chaz]

I'm hoping the new member ranking works well, I might not post much but I think i'm active enough in the community and chat ;)

[Master Hade]

Hmmm..... This seems almost like over-kill but what ever you gotta do to keep me from getting raped by some grandpa I'm ok with:icon_bigg

[Master Hade]

I think with all these new changes you will end up making the site too inclusive. No one will want to work hard enough to like be an established member... I don't know. I still think its just a bit of over kill. After all I came here to talk and meet other gay people who have or are experienceing problems I'm facing. I wanted to meet people and stuff. It seems your going to scare people off with this whole thing. Hmmm I'm just kinda thinking out loud.

[EM68]

I'm not a big fan of limiting access to member profiles. I have found it very helpful looking at postings by people my own age. I think it will hurt the spirit of this great site.

[MeskElil]

Working to get to Full Member status is going to be difficult, yes, but for those who are active in the site and happy with it and encouraged to make it better it will probably be easier. And of course you can apply for the status at any time...you just need to have some background to you first.
These changes, I believe, are completely necessary for ensuring the health and well-being of all the people on this site. And those who really care about the site and put time into it will reap rewards and be able to do more things.
But it's just going to have to work that way. There's no other way around it.

[Grof142007]

Hate to say it but since these changes it has really kill my mood for EC even tho it probably wont affect me seeing ill probably be full member. also that and the BIG ANNOYING notice update at top i mean yea it was good which i didn't see it but seeing it every time i log in is just annoying... hopefully once all this is done i can get back into mood of EC

[Austin]

Sadly I have to say, I think that the changes are going to end up killing EC =( I mean, as Hade mentioned, nobody new is going to work hard enough to get to become an established member. If I were joining a new forum, I wouldn't want to do all that work. I mean, I don't even know anyone there. People may still join, post a bit but quit. And eventually, a large amount of established members will slowly get bored as there will be less people posting, etc. and they will slowly become less and less active and find other things in life and forget about EC. It's sad, but I feel that with these changes, that is what will come of EC =( I hope that these changes will be altered a little bit in the future.

[Paul_UK]

We hate these changes as much as you all do. As you would have read from the first post in the original announcement however, we do not have much choice in the matter.

We are still trying to find ways to minimise the impact and make it as straightforward as possible for people to get to the "Full Member" status. We are also still considering whether we really need to be quite as restrictive in certain areas to achieve the requirements.

There is going to be some learning for all of us, and things may well change over the next few days and weeks. Please bear with us and allow us time to work things out. Please also use Ask The Staff to communicate any concerns with us that you don't want public.

[Paul_UK]

As Martin posted here http://www.emptyclosets.com/forum/showthread.php?p=262624#post262624 we have decided to allow Regular Members to continue to view and create albums and blogs, however they cannot leave comments on other peoples photos and blogs. We are also keeping Visitor Messages but Regular Members cannot post them. However this all may change in the future.

The aim of the changes was to prevent unmonitored private communications between unapproved members. Because blogs and albums are public we think it is worth keeping them for now and watching closely how they are used.

The PM restrictions will be applied probably in two weeks time.

Our aim is to minimise the risk of inappropriate unmonitored private communication while allowing people to use as much of the site as possible. It is a difficult balance to achieve.

[Myzou]

Paul, I'm just a bit curious. If regular members can now view and make albums, what was the point of removing the picture thread? Sure, they could comment in that thread, but at the same time, removing the picture thread was for "safety", but allowing new members to view albums would remove the "safety" in removing the picture thread wouldn't it? O.o As any comments in that thread were completely public, and comments sent through PMs because of the thread would still happen from viewing albums. Sorry, just a little confused on that aspect o.o

I was also curious about the profile messages as James was, but you cleared that up, which I'm glad. If someone can't notice there's other people's comments under their own, then they aren't really paying attention o.o

[Paul_UK]

We have only just decided to leave the albums and blogs available today, on the basis that they are public so can't be used for unseen inappropriate contact. We are not sure if it can stay that way though. I'd like them to but it may not be possible.

So the approach is a cautious "let's continue to allow blogs and albums, but not allow regular members to post comments on them, for now and see how it goes". In a couple of weeks when we apply the PM restrictions we can review it and see where we are.

The picture posting thread was removed from view a while ago, before today's decision.
While PMs are available to new members we do not want to encourage picture posting in the forums. It's not a good thing to encourage anyway, especially with some images are hosted away from EC.

What we are trying to do is find a way of reducing the amount of changes and limitations for members while still achieving the requirements that have been set out by the site owners for the safety of members. So there may be some inconsistencies and changes while we try to figure out the best compromise. Bear with us please!

[bitou]

If a regular Member like me ( poor me) has a friend who is full member you mean they wont be able to talk anymore? I though this was a social network ? I m very confuse

[Paul_UK]

If a regular Member like me ( poor me) has a friend who is full member you mean they wont be able to talk anymore?

Yes, that is correct.

The reasoning is that anyone who signs up gets regular member status. They could be genuine members like you or they could be people with more dubious motives. We need to stop just anyone from making private contact with members. So we have the restrictions for new members, and promote them to full members once we are reasonably happy that they are legit.

The form for applying for full member status is now available.

The PM restrictions won't be added for a couple of weeks though, to allow regular members time to apply for full member status, and to allow us to continue going through our member lists.

[bitou]

Thanks . Well , I think that I just have to fellow the rules.

[halfy]

hi, i seem to be having trouble logging on and staying on at empty closets. i'm not sure if this is to do with the member change or the fact that i haven't been on in a while. the forum keeps logging me out when i log in. could you help me with this?

[Grof142007]

how much is left -.- im bearing with ya but yea

[joeyconnick]

how much is left -.- im bearing with ya but yeaI think the only thing that's left is turning off Private Messaging to and from Regular Members.

So... not much. It'll be interesting to see if that much changes. Guess it'll depend on how the application for Full Membership process works out and how many people care desperately about PMing. I have to say I don't use it that much.

[Myzou]

hi, i seem to be having trouble logging on and staying on at empty closets. i'm not sure if this is to do with the member change or the fact that i haven't been on in a while. the forum keeps logging me out when i log in. could you help me with this?

Try deleting your cookies and private data, I had this happen for the longest time a few years ago, as I didn't even know what cookies were at the time, so there were like 2 years worth of them on the computer, deleting them solved it.

[William]

Hi! I just want to say despite the moaning about it, I am very grateful to the mods and admins for these changes.

I guess I'm just dumb, but I was contacted by someone, and I gave him loads of personal information and my e-mail and everything, and now I find he was banned for 'inappropriate' things with younger members.

He seemed very nice and I was going to meet him, but now I won't. I nearly gave him my address and mobile (cell phone) number, but I'm glad a mod contacted me just in time. My uncle warned me about contacting peeps on the net, but this guy seemed really nice and not like a paedo (I'm not saying he is, cos that would be unfair, but I don't know).

Neway, I think this is a good system, and it might have saved me being embarrassed - so my thanks to the mods. :thumbsup:

[halfy]

hi, i seem to be having trouble logging on and staying on at empty closets. i'm not sure if this is to do with the member change or the fact that i haven't been on in a while. the forum keeps logging me out when i log in. could you help me with this?

Try deleting your cookies and private data, I had this happen for the longest time a few years ago, as I didn't even know what cookies were at the time, so there were like 2 years worth of them on the computer, deleting them solved it.

thanks. i figured it out. it turns out i was logged in here at my work computer, so when i came to log in at home, it automatically logged me out because i was logged on at another computer. thanks for the advice anyway. btw, where do you find cookies on your computer? i always forget where they are. in my experiance, manually clearing your cookies is much better for making your computer work faster rather than defragging it which (in my experiance) just deletes all of your precious, precious files.

[Paul_UK]

how much is left -.- im bearing with ya but yeaI think the only thing that's left is turning off Private Messaging to and from Regular Members.

So... not much. It'll be interesting to see if that much changes. Guess it'll depend on how the application for Full Membership process works out and how many people care desperately about PMing. I have to say I don't use it that much.

Yes, that's correct. The current plan is to add the PM restrictions on the weekend 26/27 July, but it is really dependant on how we get through the membership upgrade requests and how the advisors settle in with contacting new members to welcome them etc.

At the moment we have allowed regular members to continue using blogs and albums on the basis that these are public not private (regular members cannot comment on blogs and photos though). However we are keeping an eye on that to see how it works out. I hope it can stay as it is - fingers crossed!

On the full membership upgrades we are now just dealing with applications and are not looking for any other members to upgrade ourselves. This is simply because in the lower post count bands it is such a massive job to sort through them all. So if you are a regular member, have been active on the forum etc for a while and want to be upgraded, please fill out the form to apply. :thumbsup:

Also if anyone received the PM from Martin a couple of weeks ago saying they would be full members but is still a regular member, please post in Ask the Staff. One person that we accidentally missed already has, and has now been sorted.

[SamAlex728]

Okay, not a complaint, just something I just noticed. I just saw a newb with a custom title. So you got rid of the 500-post thing for custom titles during the updates?

[beckyg]

Hi! I just want to say despite the moaning about it, I am very grateful to the mods and admins for these changes.

I guess I'm just dumb, but I was contacted by someone, and I gave him loads of personal information and my e-mail and everything, and now I find he was banned for 'inappropriate' things with younger members.

He seemed very nice and I was going to meet him, but now I won't. I nearly gave him my address and mobile (cell phone) number, but I'm glad a mod contacted me just in time. My uncle warned me about contacting peeps on the net, but this guy seemed really nice and not like a paedo (I'm not saying he is, cos that would be unfair, but I don't know).

Neway, I think this is a good system, and it might have saved me being embarrassed - so my thanks to the mods. :thumbsup:

Thanks William, that kind of feedback is important to hear. Please if anybody feels uncomfortable with anybody here please let us know. We're doing our best to make everybody safe!

[Paul_UK]

Okay, not a complaint, just something I just noticed. I just saw a newb with a custom title. So you got rid of the 500-post thing for custom titles during the updates?

Yes, I thought it would be good to let everyone set custom titles now. :thumbsup:

[SamAlex728]

cool

[Alexander]

is there *any* way a regular member can contact another member privately?

[joeyconnick]

is there *any* way a regular member can contact another member privately?They can (or will be able to...) contact mods and the advisors privately. That's it, though.

[SamAlex728]

is there *any* way a regular member can contact another member privately?

If you are asking because it has happened, it is because Paul hasn't set up PM restrictions yet.

[Urman]

i glad i read up on this

[Martin]

is there *any* way a regular member can contact another member privately?

Nope, that would defeat the point of it all. :p The changes are planned to take effect this weekend. Once in place Regular Members will only be able to PM Advisors, Experts, Mods and Admins. The only way you can really communicate with a new member is by profile messages, but they will not be able to reply so I wish ye luck having a conversation that way. :p

It isn't ideal, but it was either this or no forum at all. We've tried to make it as simple as possible by making the application process simple. It isn't impossible to obtain Full Member status, but it does require some consistant activity on the applicants part.