is it wrong to be gay?

[mc1234]

is it?u here all these people saying that its not christian and that God does not like it?but is it true?how would they know?surely if He didnt want us to be gay,there would be no gay people...is it a sin?

[CrimsonThunder]

Hey mc1234,

It is definitely not wrong, that is just made up.

No where in the bible does it say homosexuality is wrong If you want confirmation on this I can dig up an article about it.

The bible says that we shouldn't do 10 sins, now how many Christians don't do any of them? None. Everyone sins, and if for some reason homosexuality was a sin (which it isn't remember) then we'd be forgiven.

[greg]

NO NO NO it is not wrong, sinfull,or un christian 2 B gay. Why do people still question their/our right 2 b ourselves, it like bashing your head against a brick wall, we have the right to be ourselves 2 b loved and to love.

greg

[Hydrogen]

Nothing is wrong with being gay.

Anyone who thinks so, is un-educated in the way of the world and life.

[CelebrityHead]

It is considered a sin amongst most christians, however I really do think that its even more important to be yourself and be happy than to try and not 'sin' your entire life (if it actually is sinning..? I don't have a religious bone in my body, so it's never concerned me)

[24601]

No, it's not wrong!


No where in the bible does it say homosexuality is wrong

That's not entirely true. The third Old Testament book, Leviticus, outright condemns homosexuality, in its "Holiness Code" (Leviticus 17-26). Yet, the argument that this passage condemns all homosexuals as sinners is inherently flawed. Here's what I posted about this a while back:


Homosexuality IS right, and don't let the hardcore theologians fool you. It is love, no matter who it's between, and no human being as the right to interfere. God/Jesus has always preached to love, above all other things, and that's just what you should do. In my mind, there's nothing wrong with that.

In the bible, the passages often quoted as condemning homosexuality are:

Leviticus 18:22
“You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination.”

Leviticus 20:13
“If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act.”

Yet, in that same chapter, it also says:

Leviticus 11:11:
"They (shellfish) shall be an abomination to you; you shall not eat their flesh, but you shall regard their carcasses as an abomination."

Leviticus 19:19:
"...do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material."

Leviticus 25:44:
"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property."

Leviticus 19:27:
"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard."

Yeah, that's not outdated at all. Anyway, back on track, if such an old, outdated, and virtually unimportant text is the sole reason for condemning homosexuality (which I'm not sure it is, but I'm pretty sure that's the main one, correct me if I'm wrong), shouldn't the "divine" word of Jesus Christ, preaching about love and acceptance and all that good stuff, far outweigh Leviticus?

It's just an excuse for close minded people to shut us out from their so god-like and perfect lives. It's a disgrace to the whole of organized religion, and one of the main reasons why I no longer believe in or have anything to do with organized religion (except when my mom makes me, ugh!).


The Holiness Code is completely outdated. It set standards for a time that was far different from our own, and doesn't really pertain to modern life.

Not to mention its in the OLD Testament. The key ideas of Christianity are mostly confined to the teachings of Jesus Christ contained in the gospels of the New Testament.

Like these:


A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another.


"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."


Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.


This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another. Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.

I think those summarize life so much better than an outdated code of rubbish.

So, basically, no. :lol:

<3

Ryan

Edit: If I sound bitter, it's because I'm not a big fan of organized religion. Sorry.

[wtinal]

Is being gay wrong?

This is certainly a theological question that has a continum of answers. Personally, I have not found anything in the Bible to specifically and unequivicably (sp?) condemn homosexuality, and at the same time, I don't believe in throwing out the Old Testament as outdated and useless in exchange for the New Testament. I believe the Old Testament and New Testament passages used to condemn gays are poorly translated from Greek (NT) or Hebrew (OT) to English and taken out of context. I believe the Bible condemns many things practiced by expressions of sexuality - whether gay or straight, but I don't think it condemns who we love.

In the end, however, I believe it is up to the individual to determine what God is speaking to them. For instance, I believe God has called me to follow the Torah (first five books of the Old Testament) to the best of my ability, which would include the law of not eating pork, shellfish, etc. This does not mean I will go to hell or face condemnation if I do, just that I believe He has called me not to. It also does not mean I think He has called everyone to this or that there is anything wrong with people who eat pork everyday. But, for me, I don't eat pork.

My point is this: we all have the individual responsibility of interpreting the Bible according to what God puts in our hearts. I believe, if Christians were willing to set aside judgment, that we all come to the conclusion that the life, death, and resurrection of Christ is THE event in the Bible and beyond that, all are disputable matters.

[CrimsonThunder]

For emosewa:

Six years ago, when I went to minister in Salt Lake City, my very first memorial service was for a young man who had committed suicide. Zack (not his real name) was eighteen, he was talented, he was funny, he was well liked -- and he was gay.

No one knows for sure why Zack chose to take his own life. But in the course of preparing for his service, I began to learn about the special vulnerability of gay youth. I learned, for example, that one third of all teen suicides are believed related to issues of sexual identity. And that gay teens are three times more likely to commit suicide than straight teens.

This sparked a conversion for me. Even before this experience, I'd been sympathetic to the liberation movements of sexual minorities. But the issues had pretty well stayed in my head. What my Salt Lake experience did for me was to drive the issues deeper -- down into my heart and soul.

In Utah, Unitarian Universalist churches serve as refuges for gay, lesbian, and bisexual people. While there, I got to hear the stories of many of them, including those in loving, committed, same-sex relationships. In a way that was very immediate, I learned about the damage done when people are repeatedly told that they are unacceptable -- that their way of loving is, at best, second-class. I also learned a lot about anti-gay violence: it was while I was in Utah that Matthew Shepard was murdered in Wyoming, the next state over.

Last week, Tom Wintle addressed the question of "gay weddings." In doing so he covered a wide area -- the personal, the practical, and the theological. This morning, my focus will be both more specific and less so.

On the side of "less specific", I don't intend to address the question of same-sex marriage -- though you'll probably figure out where I stand -- but rather to look at the more general question of human rights. On the side of "more specific", I want to make an inquiry of the Bible -- to unpack what it says, and what it doesn't say, about homosexuality.

Why is this important? Let me tell you a story. Some of you may remember the 1978 murder of Charlie Howard -- a young gay man, a Unitarian Universalist, who was thrown off a bridge in Portland, Maine. Novelist Bette Greene set out to write a fictional account of his murder, and in connection with this she interviewed 400 young men who had been sent to prison for violence against gay men and lesbians.

Of all these men, only a few of them expressed any remorse at all. In fact, many of them told her that they were justified in their actions because of their religious beliefs. Homosexuality was wrong, it was against the Bible. One of the young men told Bette Greene that homosexuals represented Satan and the Devil. How did he know? His pastor said so.

Now, religiously based prejudice doesn't always result in violence. But it does tend to create a climate in which acts of hatred become acceptable. It's analogous to Christian religious attitudes against Judaism -- they aren't quite the same as anti-semitism, but they create a climate where anti-semitism can flourish. In a book about the Holocaust, Daniel Goldhagen concluded that religious attitudes against Judaism created "cultural permission" for Hitler's murder of the Jews.

I believe that people of faith are called to counteract that climate of hatred, that "cultural permission" for violence. It is what the Holy One requires of us. We're called to proclaim an alternative vision, using all the tools at our disposal. And I'm convinced that one of those tools is to deal with the Bible head on. It's not the only tool we have, but it can be a powerful one.

The late David Eaton was a Unitarian Universalist minister, an African-American, who studied with Howard Thurman at BU. David liked to quote Thurman, that "liberals need to know the Bible even better than conservatives do." This is good strategy; it helps us engage people in conversation.

For instance, maybe you're in a discussion with a fundamentalist friend. Maybe you'd like to open this person's mind, just a little. Since this person knows and trusts you, you might even have a chance of succeeding. Which argument will be more persuasive? To say, "Well, I don't really believe in the Bible?" Or to say, "I've read the Bible, too, and here's what I think it's really about."

The Bible is so often invoked to justify oppression of gay men and lesbians, that many people assume that that's just the way it is -- that the Bible condemns homosexuality and that's that. It leaves us in the position of accepting one and rejecting the other -- of acquiescing in anti-gay prejudice or of throwing the Bible onto the scrap heap. Is there a way to embrace Bible AND to combat oppression? I think there is.

To approach any passage in the Bible, we need to ask two basic questions. First, we need to ask, "What did this passage mean to the people who wrote it?" What was the writer trying to say? What was he or she wrestling with? And what was the historical context?

Once we have an idea of what the writers had in mind, then we still have to decide what the passage means to us. And that involves a whole range of questions. Does the passage apply to our situation today? Does the Biblical context have anything to do with us? Is the passage consistent with things we've learned since the Bible was put together? And is it consistent with a larger ethical framework -- including the Bible's own ethical framework?

It's helpful to remember that the Bible does not speak with one voice. It didn't go straight from the mouth of God to one person's ear. In fact, it's not really a book -- it's a library, written by many people over a long period of time. With this in mind, let's look at the Biblical passages that deal specifically with homosexuality.

To hear some people talk, you'd think that the Biblical writers were totally preoccupied -- with sexuality in general and with homosexuality in particular. You might think that the Bible was full of long passages, fulminating on the topic.

In fact, the Bible says very little! Here we have a collection of 63 books and pamphlets, with some 1500 pages, written over a period of 2000 years. And how many passages do you think it contains on homosexuality? Well, there are seven. That's right -- seven. Many fewer than on economic justice, many fewer than on love.

So let's go ahead and unpack them. One caution is in order, though: doing so means we'll be looking at some things that aren't usually discussed in church. So I ask your forgiveness in advance, and please remember -- I didn't make this up! It's all in the Good Book.

Five of the seven passages are in the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament. Two of the five are prohibitions against male temple prostitution -- in Deuteronomy (Deut. 23:17 - 18 ) and the First Book of Kings (1 Kings 14:24, see also 15:12 and 22:46). But these two don't really count, since the Bible takes a dim view of female prostitution, too. So now we're left with three. These consist of two verses in the "Holiness Codes" of the Book of Leviticus, (Lev. 18:22 and 20:13), and also the Genesis story of Sodom and Gomorrah (Gen.19:1-29).

What about the two passages from Leviticus? They're practically identical to each other, part of a legal code that contains over 600 laws. The stronger of the two says, "If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death."

Well, that's heavy. And it seems pretty straightforward, right? Well, maybe not. Let's look at the context. This passage is embedded in a list of "abominations", all of which carry the death penalty. They include adultery, incest -- and cursing one's mother and father. If we're going to seize on one of these, shouldn't we take the whole lot?

While we're at it, we probably should throw in some of the other violations of the Holiness Codes. These include knowing a menstruating woman "in the Biblical sense." Eating sacrificial meat on the third day. Crossbreeding animals. Sowing fields with two kinds of seed. Wearing garments of two different materials. Wearing tattoos. Trimming beards. You get the idea.

The Holiness Codes were meant to address some very specific needs. The ancient Israelites were struggling to populate the land, so fertility was everything. They were also engaged in the task of nation building, and struggling to forge a distinct identity. In short, their situation was vastly different from ours. We can try to understand what these people were trying to do, without being bound by it ourselves.

The one remaining Old Testament passage is the story of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis 19:1-29). We all know what that's about, don't we? Well again, maybe not.

In the 1980s, a scientist who was also a lay theologian gave a keynote address to a convocation of government scientists. Here's how he began:

"I have come to Washington today with a heavy heart, for I am convinced that there are sodomites in high places in government. I am convinced that both houses of Congress have many sodomites in them, the President's cabinet is full of them, and I sadly believe that the President himself regularly practices sodomy."

Well! Now he had their attention!! He went on:

"Now I want to tell you what sodomy is. The clearest biblical definition of this sin is not found in the Genesis story but rather in the prophet Ezekiel: 'This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy' (Ezek. 16:49). That, my friends, is sodomy -- it is social injustice, inhospitality to the stranger."

So how did the "sin of Sodom" come to be identified with same-sex love? The story centers around a disturbing incident of attempted gang rape -- the men of Sodom against Lot's Visitor, who are angels in disguise. But it makes absolutely no sense to identify homosexual rape with all same-sex relations. Like any rape, it has more to do with domination and control than with sexuality. In fact, homosexual rape is often committed by heterosexual men, most notoriously in prisons.

Let's move on to the Christian scriptures, the New Testament. If anything, they say even less than the Old Testament. Most significantly, there is nothing at all from Jesus! Some years ago, the UUA put out a pamphlet. The title page said "What Jesus had to say about homosexuality." Inside, it was blank.

In the rest of the New Testament, there are exactly two passages on the subject, and both are found in the letters of Paul. In First Corinthians, Paul issues a laundry list of people who "will not inherit the kingdom of God", and the list includes "sodomites." (I Cor. 6:9-10. A very similar passage occurs in Timothy, but it seems to be a copy from Paul.) The other passage is in Romans (Rom 1:26-27), in which Paul speaks disparagingly of men or women being "consumed with passion" for people of the same sex.

Once again, context is everything. First of all, in Paul's world, there doesn't seem to have been any concept of homosexual orientation, or homosexual nature. Like all Biblical writers, he assumed that everyone was naturally heterosexual, and that same-sex behavior was "unnatural." Now we know differently.

Second, it's important for us to know that the only homosexual behavior Paul knew about was exploitive. Scholarship indicates that in the Greco-Roman world of the early church, there was only one basic model of homosexuality, and that was pederasty, the sexual use of boys by adult males.

This is what Paul was writing against. He didn't say anything about loving committed relationships between consenting adults because he didn't know about them! Peter Gomes of Harvard's Memorial Church speaks to this: "[Paul] cannot be condemned for that ignorance, but neither should his ignorance be an excuse for our own."

I return to my sermon title: What does the Bible really say about same-sex love? In other words, what does it say about loving, committed, respectful, mutual relationships between consenting adults? Of course it's up to us to judge for ourselves -- but here's what I believe:

On one level I agree that the Bible doesn't say anything about loving, committed, same-sex relationships, because it doesn't know about them. But at a deeper level, I believe the Bible has a lot to say. That is, it has as much to say about same-sex relationships as it does about opposite sex relationships. Walter Wink puts it this way, "The Bible doesn't really have a sexual ethic. What it has is a love ethic." In its love ethic, it speaks in one voice to all of us.

At its deepest level, the Bible doesn't extol a narrow definition of sexual virtue. More often than not, it warns against self-righteousness.

It doesn't lift up ritual purity. Rather, it demands equity for the poor and oppressed, and says that the outcaste is our neighbor.

It doesn't ask us, "Do you go to the right church?" It asks instead, "Did you feed the hungry? And did you make peace with your brother or sister?"

It invites us into the "kingdom of heaven" -- a banquet table set for all.

And it asks us to love one another -- because love is of God, and God is love.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

FOR FURTHER READING

Gomes, Peter J., The Good Book: Reading the Bible with Mind and Heart. New York: William Morrow and Company 1996.

Nelson, James B., Body Theology. Louisville: Westminster/John Knox Press 1992.

Nelson, James B., Embodiment: An Approach to Sexuality and Christian Theology. Minneapolis: Augburg Publishing House 1978.

[Sam]

Is it wrong to be gay? NO NO NO.

Why would God make someone who is gay and then condemn it? I don't think he would.

That being said I think that because we grow up with people telling us how wrong being gay is, that when we realize we are gay we begin to think well is it wrong? Am I really going to hell? (if you want to look at the religious part)

I am a christian and I do believe that God loves me and I don't believe that I am doing anything bad HOW CAN LOVE BE BAD? love is a very powerful thing. love doesn't discriminate it doesn't realize the difference between races or gender. that sounds weird doesn't it that I'm talking about love like that but seriously we can't choose who we fall in love with.

Even my own Dad thinks I'm going to hell!!! yes he accepts me and supports me but he still thinks I am going to hell see that is an example of how a person's beliefs can affect their brain.

It has taken me a long time to get to where I am today and because I have let my family and society drill into my head that being gay is "against the bible" and "wrong" and that "I'm going to hell" I am still not 100% accepting of myself I'm only about 90% accepting of myself I still feel really bad that I am gay. hopefully I will learn to be more accepting of myself soon.

just know that being gay is NOT wrong no matter what somebody else tells you.

[mc1234]

wow!thanx guys!this was really a big help for me...and all those long msgs...it is much apreciated.and like biloved86 said,we ARE being taught that being gay is wrong.so it does lead us to believe it is wrong.but now things are more clear to me

[liszak]

Is being gay wrong?

This is certainly a theological question that has a continum of answers. Personally, I have not found anything in the Bible to specifically and unequivicably (sp?) condemn homosexuality, and at the same time, I don't believe in throwing out the Old Testament as outdated and useless in exchange for the New Testament. I believe the Old Testament and New Testament passages used to condemn gays are poorly translated from Greek (NT) or Hebrew (OT) to English and taken out of context. I believe the Bible condemns many things practiced by expressions of sexuality - whether gay or straight, but I don't think it condemns who we love.

In the end, however, I believe it is up to the individual to determine what God is speaking to them. For instance, I believe God has called me to follow the Torah (first five books of the Old Testament) to the best of my ability, which would include the law of not eating pork, shellfish, etc. This does not mean I will go to hell or face condemnation if I do, just that I believe He has called me not to. It also does not mean I think He has called everyone to this or that there is anything wrong with people who eat pork everyday. But, for me, I don't eat pork.

My point is this: we all have the individual responsibility of interpreting the Bible according to what God puts in our hearts. I believe, if Christians were willing to set aside judgment, that we all come to the conclusion that the life, death, and resurrection of Christ is THE event in the Bible and beyond that, all are disputable matters.

I really liked this post!

It made me wonder, though: what do you suggest for gay people whose hearts tell them that being gay is wrong -- maybe not wrong in an absolute sense but wrong for them individually? Should they strive for a change of heart or to become "ex-gay"? Or something else? I've encountered more than a few gay people who simply cannot get past their guilt. It's very difficult to convince them that their guilty feelings are the result of living in very homophobic environments; the argument shifts to a debate on how to distinguish between "deep in the heart" feelings and (presumably less genuine) feelings that have simply been deeply ingrained as a result of societal norms/values.

[Blue0090]

i know God would rather have gay people than criminals. I'm sure

[wtinal]

Unfortunately, your questions do not go together – in my opinion. If God calls us to something, then our responses (actions) to that calling will never be out of guilt. So, if someone is not acting on feelings of being gay out of guilt, I don’t believe they can say “God has called me to this”. He just doesn’t work that way.

For example, Paul in the New Testament says that it is better not to marry. However, he also says in the same breath, it is better to marry than to be unfaithful in being single. Paul didn’t marry, because God called him to be single. If he had sexual feelings and felt guilty about them, and he decided not marry because of his guilt over having sexual feelings, I think he would be wrong. He didn’t feel guilty over sexual feelings, he just didn’t act on them because of the call God had on his life. Make sense?

For me, if I choose to eat pork for some reason (fear of offending my adoptive mother or rejection), I feel guilty because I have disobeyed what I feel God has called me to, NOT because I ate pork. There is a huge difference.

I feel very sad for those struggling with guilt about being gay. God does not condemn. I don’t believe God calls someone to be straight or gay. He calls us to be faithful. If we attempt to be faithful in whatever we feel He calls us to, then I believe, He will be faithful to guide us into what He wants us to do. So, if I marry someone of the sex, I have the responsibility to be as faithful in that relationship/marriage as someone who is in a heterosexual marriage.

The only thing I believe the Bible clearly condemns is the use of sexual relationships for indiscriminate pleasure. This has nothing to do with being gay or being straight. It would like someone being gay/straight and “batting for the other team” simply so they can have more pleasure, not because of love or attraction. For me, it kind of borders on the line of pedophile (only with adults and not necessarily children). The sexual relations have to do with power, prestige, and position – not love.

God has a way of getting to us. And I think, when we accept the idea that we are gay, there is a freedom that comes even in our walk with God. For years, this was standing in the way of my relationship with Him.

If nothing else, a person has to come to the place that they can say “God, I am coming to you just like I am – gay and all – and asking for you to accept me”. And He does, right where you are. Until we come to Him as we are, how can we really know what is okay with Him and what is not? How can He speak to something (or change or mind about something) we hide (or so we think) from Him and ourselves?

[24601]

For emosewa:

Really long article that I actually read.

That's basically agreeing with what I was saying. While there are passages in the bible (Leviticus) that specifically condemn homosexuality, their literal content is outdated (in my, and apparently the author of that article's opinions). Thanks for the article, though. The Unitarian churches are often a little more accepting than some of the other wings of Christianity, I have noticed.

[liszak]

For me, if I choose to eat pork for some reason (fear of offending my adoptive mother or rejection), I feel guilty because I have disobeyed what I feel God has called me to, NOT because I ate pork. There is a huge difference.


I think there are indeed gay people who feel guilty b/c they feel they have disobeyed what God called them to. And that's what I was trying to refer to: people who feel deep in their hearts that God has called them to be celibate or heterosexual, not homosexual, and that they're straying from their calling. I just wanted to clarify that.

I don't think my question has a "happily ever after" resolution, and I guess I knew that all along. I just wanted to put it out there because I've met people for whom this is a very real struggle.

[wtinal]

Ya, I understand. I guess I would argue that when God calls us to something, He gives us peace, not guilt or depression or a heavy heart. And so, I would have to ask them where their peace is. I am not saying it is not sometimes hard to follow God's call, but even in that struggle, there is peace. For me - no peace, no call. I get the part about guilt for "straying", but often we have guilt for straying when we have no peace in the first place. God brings us to His calling through compassion, love, and a wooing - not condemnation or guilt. - I kind of feel strongly I guess because I have beaten down with this so often, for various things - the most recent of them, homosexuality.

[Red87]

I definately think its ok to be gay. If god didn't want us here and it was a sin, wouldn't he just wipe us of the face of the earth or have not made us this way in the first place?

[mc1234]

I agree with most of u here...we are all geting mixed signals,someone is telling us its ok,someone says its not ok...it really confuses u....oh and i 4got 2 say thanx 2 CrimsonThunder and everyone else writing these looooooong msgs.i enjoy reading them

[CrimsonThunder]

I agree with most of u here...we are all geting mixed signals,someone is telling us its ok,someone says its not ok...it really confuses u....oh and i 4got 2 say thanx 2 CrimsonThunder and everyone else writing these looooooong msgs.i enjoy reading them

No problems champ. Hope it helped you. =)

[tinkerbell]

I was once told that God would not create a specific group of people just to send them to hell (but I disagree for my own reasons). The person was saying being gay was not wrong. According to my own beliefs it is not. Don't worry.

[thecoolmexican]

For emosewa:

Six years ago....really long article!


there's absolutely nothing wrong for being gay.

...and I absolutely loved that post from CrimsonThunder! First really really really long article I finished reading. :eusa_clap
Brilliant.

[CrimsonThunder]

Haha glad you liked it cooliomexican. Make sure you post it on other gay forums too the more people that know it the better. :)

[The Lone Duck]

A useful pamphlet entitled "The Bible, Christianity, & Homosexuality" can be downloaded from this page: http://www.truthsetsfree.net/bible.htm

[Cloud Nine 5]

It's wrong according to the bible, no reason to deny that. Doesn't mean it has to be wrong for you too. I don't believe there would be no gay people if God hated them... that doesn't add up but I'm not gonna rape your mind with the crap I've been hearing. You decide what's wrong and right and that's really the best anyone can tell you.

[Isaac]

The best way to sum all thsi up is no! There are priests out there that actually say that there are parts in teh old testemant where homosexuality is praised, and Jesus him self did stuff. Im not going to ramble about religion being a cult but i don't understand. Back then it was made so people dont fear death, but now the Pope comments on driving safe, doing well in school and stuff. When was that part of reliogion! There is a comedian out there LEWIS BLACK and he is hilarious. He comments on how Chrsitians change the old testemant, they have a new testemant, and teh took ideas form the Jews. I also think it wierd how there are different sub sections.Anglican, Gatholic, Prespiterian, and stuff!I know im rambled on about the church but it just hard whith all these dumb ideas out there. Like my dad says (although he doesn know im gay), as long as you do the things your suppose to do as a human (not kill, cheat, be abusive, good to your neiggbour and kids etc), and just do the right things in life, who cares if your gay!

[davo-man]

I agree that was a rad post....(sorry i just felt like using the ord "rad")...thanks for that...and although i think ive said this before...Being Gay is not bad....its just who you are...

My take is it like this...God is allpowerful, all knowing, all loving..okay? these are basic beliefs in the Christian belief...Now if he is all powerful, hes not gunna create something imperfect...everything he creates is beautiful in his view...If he's allknowing, he would know if something was impefect, so he wouldnt continue creating it....if hes all loving, he hasnt made us so that we can suffer, hes made us so tat we can love others...whether they be loving men or women

[CrimsonThunder]

The best way to sum all thsi up is no! There are priests out there that actually say that there are parts in teh old testemant where homosexuality is praised, and Jesus him self did stuff. Im not going to ramble about religion being a cult but i don't understand. Back then it was made so people dont fear death, but now the Pope comments on driving safe, doing well in school and stuff. When was that part of reliogion! There is a comedian out there LEWIS BLACK and he is hilarious. He comments on how Chrsitians change the old testemant, they have a new testemant, and teh took ideas form the Jews. I also think it wierd how there are different sub sections.Anglican, Gatholic, Prespiterian, and stuff!I know im rambled on about the church but it just hard whith all these dumb ideas out there. Like my dad says (although he doesn know im gay), as long as you do the things your suppose to do as a human (not kill, cheat, be abusive, good to your neiggbour and kids etc), and just do the right things in life, who cares if your gay!

Great post Nathan, had no idea priests said that the old testament praised homosexuality. Same with the Jesus thing haha.

Thx for that link Lone Duck, I'll have to read it later on.

[mc1234]

but why?why do people find homosexuality as such a bad thing?people make it seem that being gay is worse than murdering someone

[CrimsonThunder]

Very well said man. I have actually been thinking the same thing over the last couple of days!

I can't exactly tell you why. I guess they just don't like our lifestyle and think that it's gross. Hell everyone thinks somethings gross!

[Zec24]

I'm afraid I might start an argument with my comments on this topic, but oh well. If someone feels like they can set me straight or help me understand my (likely idiotic) logic please do. I struggle with this same question of how to deconflict religion and being gay and here is what I always fight with myself over...

I keep seeing this comment that God would not create gay people if he felt it was something wrong or he would have wiped them out by now. OK, here is the problem I have with that statement...free will. We have the freedom to commit sins, and God will not stop us from doing so. There are plenty of murders, rapists, child molesters, and abusive parents out there and he hasn't punished or erradicated them yet. God created them, obviously not with the intent to have them do the things they do, but they commit the sin anyway. So how do homosexuals fall out of this category, if they are in fact sinners? If we don't see God until judgment day or whatever then it won't be until that point that we will know for sure how God feels about homosexuals and for all we know it could be the same way he feels about murders. His sheep gone astray.

The only way I can see homosexuality as being somewhat acceptable above the other sins is that homosexuality is the only one of these sins committed out of love. (That might be the turning point). But am I trying to rationalize/validate my own sin? Am I sinning and just trying to justify my actions? That is the major question I struggle with.

Getting into the biblical references and the idea that the laws of the bible are outdated at times, I completely agree with. I happened to have lived in the bible belt when I was in high school and I always heard the most obnoxius comments that people would back up using the bible. Ironically, I usually knew more about theology than my bible thumping peers and could usually argue with them and confuse and anger them. In retrospect, I wish I could have had a chance to tackle the gay issue with them, but unfortunately none of them knew of my orientation, it was bad enough that I was catholic.

To most people trying to use the bible to defend their views on homosexuality (or any number of crazy views) I would say "Well I'm not going to change my ways until I start seeing people walking around missing limbs" None of my friends would have gotten that joke? but what I mean by that is, there is also a passage in the bible that says if your hand commits a greivous act, you must cut it off. Now I know there are obviously no perfect people out there, so everyone should be missing a few limbs. I know this sounds ridiculous and immature, but many people are literalists and think everything in the bible should be followed to a T, but then who actually does that?

I'm trying to make the point that maybe we shouldn't take something produced by old men over hundreds of years and consider it the be all end all.
I'm not even going to get started on why I think the bible should be viewed as an amazing piece of literature rather than the "word of God". Ever play the telephone game? See how fast something as simple as a quick phone conversation gets messed with and changed around after going through a handful of people and consider what happened to the bible.

Maybe I'm just really confused, and I know I certainly haven't figured out theology but there will always be a conflict with religion and homosexuality and I'm not sure I want to waste my time or effort trying to justify my actions.

[Moth]

I struggled with the very same question for a long time. My family is very religious and I once was too, although I'm not anymore (mainly for reasons entirely unrelated to sexuality). When I was religious, I thought it was a sin, so I prayed continually for God to change me and make me straight. It never happened. The way I figure it is this - if God is involved with people on Earth (which I don't personally believe he is, though I'm not trying to discourage others from believing that or degrade those who do, I think faith is a wonderful thing that I happen not to have), and homosexuality is a sin against him, why would he not have answered the prayers of a faithful girl who was just trying to please him? Why would he not have made me straight when I was entirely devoted to him at that point in my life? The only conclusions I can draw are A) God isn't involved with us, or B) homosexuality isn't a sin after all (or both). Now I don't want to discourage you from having faith, that's just my own personal opinion. There are plenty of resources you can look up online (that's what Google is for) that point out that the Bible does not condemn homosexuality - it is up to you wether you choose to believe those things, ultimately. In the end, my suggestion would be to find the passages that talk about homosexuality in the Bible and read them for yourself in several different versions (at least five, though I would suggest around ten). Then decide for yourself what you believe. I myself believe that it is not at all wrong to be gay, but nobody can make you believe anything. Challenge yourself, question what you've been told, and figure out what you believe.

[Zec24]

Moth,
I like your points, and I'm probably at the same place you are on this issue. I've pretty much decicded organized religion is not for me. I am pretty skeptical when it comes to religion, but I was just trying to point out some of the arguments I know would face gay people if they confronted a very religious homophobic person. I personally don't think homosexuality is wrong, but I do think that from a religious standpoint homosexuality will always be in conflict with the beliefs of the church.
I never really tried to pray to God to make me different, because even as I realized I was gay I was already slipping away from religion. You know what scares me though are these reformed or cured gay people who claim to have gotten over their homosexuality with the help of religion. If I ever did become religious again I would hope I wouldn't do something that drastic.

[Moth]

Oh, I wasn't trying to start a debate, Zec24. Actually, I didn't even really have time to read your whole post, I just kind of skimmed it. >.>; My post was for the original poster. =]