Advice Needed

[Kinuki]

Well, after having typed this about 2 months agao and leaving it sit in my documents folder, I'm finally going to post it. With all that's been happening, I'm in desperate need of advice or guidance. Thanks in advance for anything you can give me.

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I don’t really know how long I’ve felt gay feelings; I can remember several childhood incidents of homosexual encounters, such as enjoying being with my naked male friends, etc. etc.

I’ve been closeted for God knows how long. I lied to myself constantly; when I hit the beginning of the teens and my hormones kicked in, I of course looked at some naughty pictures. But after discovering a site containing bi and gay pictures, I clicked it.

“Ewww….that’s disgusting. It’s so wrong!” But I couldn’t help myself, I kept coming back, looking at those pictures. Even while I did this, I rallied against homosexuals rights to marry. Ironic, no? So I stayed in a land of blissful ignorance, not putting 2 and 2 together for a long time. It was while I had a girlfriend that I noticed it. I suddenly realized I had homosexual attractions. I slowly broke it off with her, and over the summer swore I’d beat it, it wasn’t me, I was just experimenting, and that I just needed time to overcome it. Slowly that notion disappeared (though I clung to the belief I wasn’t gay) and I slowly pushed it from my mind.

I guess it was when I met Zen, an online friend of mine, that the wheels started turning, for better or worse. See, he's bisexual, and very open about it. He'll often talk about fantasizing about some guys (though mostly, he's into girls). At first, I felt a twang of my heartstrings every time I talked to him. My stomach would knot up, and I would feel jittery. What was this feeling? Dare say...have I fallen for him? And then, as though by some magical force, my eyes were opened, and I realized just how gay I probably was. I looked at naughty images concerning two males, I found little interest in girls, and I fantasized about guy more than girls, felt attractions for guys and not girls. Add into the fact that around this same time, my best friend, Aqua, whom I'd just met, I thought I fell for her too, as I experienced the same feelings I described above. So now I was going nuts. What was wrong with me?

These feelings have since subsided into the land of nothingness, leaving me wondering if it was merely friendship regarded as something more than it was. Either way, the key had been turned, and now, it was as though everything I knew had been turned upside down. Suddenly, the faith I was brought up in labeled me as "evil" and "sinful". The political party I once proudly said I supported rallied against me, and the rights i would eventually want as I grew older. Everything I had believed in was now turned against me. I don't think words can, or ever will, describe this pain. It's like having your still-beating heart ripped from you, but not having the ability to die, instead lying there in agony.

What exemplified these feelings was probably that besides Zen, I knew no gay or lesbian people near me that I could trust. I felt alone, isolated, cut off from everyone else. I had nobody to turn to for advice or help, guidance that I sorely needed. I was alone, stranded within the darkness.

During this time, I felt increasingly moody and snappish. It was because of gut wrenching experiences, like seeing heterosexual couples cuddle in the seat in front you, and wanting to just curl up and die when you realize, "I can never be like that with a woman, and no one will accept me for wanting to be like that with another man." Hearing people around me, all of my male friends, talking constantly about which girls were hot, and trying my hardest to joke but slowly dying on the inside, feeling the happiness and optimism inside of me whither away.

(A small tangent for a question in this paragraph; if you just want what happens next, skip this, but otherwise, please read it and give me some advice. :help: ) Another little question for anyone willing to give advice (having submitted them through reading a novella >.>), but I'm not sure if many know the answer to. Is it possible, that keeping something like this inside of you can fundamentally change your personality? Years ago... it seems eons, lifetimes ago, before any of this started, when I was "straight," I was probably one of the most happy-go-lucky people you'd ever meet. Always cheerful, always smiling, always trying to make new friends. Now is a different story altogether. I've become quite cynical, quite bitter, resentful. I used to become sick (I mean it, sick) when I saw even the smallest forms of blood in games or movies, but now... now I... almost revel in it. For anyone that's played Silent Hill (the game so graphics and disturbing it's made grown men cry) I just shrug off some of the most gruesome sights of the game. Someone's splattered body? Meh. A rotting, bloody corpse strung onto a fence, as though it were on a cross? No problem. Not to mention I've fallen in love with the color black and gothy things. I look down at my shirts that have brighter colors and think, "this isn't me." So, is this a result of keeping everything inside of me, letting it eat away at me, or is this a part of my personality that's just never been seen before?

So now I was getting substantially darker in thought, and still had no place to vent. Now what? And then, one day, I found this site. I don't remember where, or how, but I bookmarked it inside of my head. I visited it on and off for a few months, almost crying at seeing that there were actually other people like me, going through what I was going through, in whole or in part. But I couldn't bring myself to register. It would be like admitting everything, and part of me still clings to the belief that maybe, just maybe, I'm straight, but just went in over my head when I began experimenting. SO I put it off.

While all of this was happening, I found another forum, a roleplaying forum. Many of the roleplays involved the characters having sex (I know what you're thinking, 'OMG CYBER SEX!!1!' but please, just read on.) I found there was a board where gay characters could do this, so...after debating it mentally for several weeks, I joined. I was fucking nervous, let me say that much. But I met some incredibly nice people there; and believe it or not, there are actually many, many real life virgins on that board, who aren't sex-crazed perverts. They're people like me. You see, the whole reason why I joined was that I wanted to explore my sexuality further, but be safe; I wasn't and still am not, willing to have sex. Not until I've found someone I know I'll create a long and enduring relationship with. But, besides the point. I met a few people there, we're friends now, and I did just that. After partaking in a few role-plays, and seeing how much more it aroused me than any other type, I slowly came to about 90% acceptance, 10% denial that I was homosexual. (I still hover at about there, or slightly more to the homosexual side) One of them, I started feeling that same rush whenever they came online, that same twang of the heartstrings. Only it felt more pronounced. It was like that for a long time, until I read in their LJ that they'd begun seeing someone. My heart just sort of withered away, and the spark I felt died, because it had seemed lasting. Only it didn't.

Now, this person's one of the nicest, most caring people ever. And...he asked me out. I never said 'yes', for the record, and to this day have said nothing in the way of an answer. Did he care I lied about my age? No, he said he understood the pressure that teenagers feel to prove themselves without having an adult discriminate based on age (he's 18, by the way). Did he care I had told no one? No, he said he would wait, and that he would not rush me to do something I wasn't comfortable with.

Now, I know what some of you may be thinking. "OMG PEDOPHILE FREAK FROM THE INTERNET!!1!" and I won't rule it out, no matter how nice he is, that it's possible. But...the feelings I said had died for him have begun slowly (slowly, mind you) resurfacing, in that I might be able to go out with him if he wanted. But... I ran away. I posted on my LJ that I was taking a break from talking with my friends and I, in a sense, stopped talking to him and several others from that board. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm sure he would still talk to me if I started a conversation with him, since he's respecting my need for distance, but I ran away from everything. I didn't want to have to cope with the pressure of anything anymore. I started hinting to my friends (particularly Aqua and Zen) that I was having problems...problems that were starting to wear me down. They wanted to help, and said no matter what it was, they'd help me get through it. But I couldn't bring myself to tell them. It was too much. So, after several lengthy discussions, I pretended talking had helped and left it at that, and to this day, they have spoken little of it, and I do likewise.

Now, at about this time, I met two other people online. One, who will also remain anonymous (let’s call him Guy B) and more recently, another (Guy C). With Guy B, I felt the same sort of rush, but much less pronounced; looking back, I guess you could call it a crush. But, it scared me to be feeling all of these crushes and feeling at once, so I broke off contact (though we’re still amiable on the message board). Then Guy C comes along. Yay, heartbreak! Basically, I started roleplaying with this guy, and the roleplay got very…personal? We ended up writing our characters so that it was more than just kind of mindless drivel, but the characters felt a huge click between them and realized they’d met their soulmates. Now, he and I talk (although we’re both shy, so not a lot) but I started feeling a sense of love towards him. Whether he feels it too is most questionable, I don’t have the slightest clue. But I must know, I keep thinking about him, I can’t get him out of my thoughts. Is it love? A heightened friendship? Or perhaps living vicariously through my roleplay character, wishing him to be that “soulmate”? I can’t answer that question, and it tears me to pieces. Now I feel affection towards two people. Yay, ain’t life grand?

So, that’s the gist of what’s been happening to me. Throw in the usual “family of homophobes” story and a few “friends reactions to coming out are questionable” in there and you have a pretty good view of what’s been bothering me.

If anyone can give me advice or guidance, you have no idea just how much it would mean to me. I never wanted to post this, hoping I could cope with everything on my own. But I’ve realized, you can’t come out, or work through the coming out process, without the help of friends. So I turn to you all.

PS: I added this as a last note because I didn’t know where else to put it.

Is it possible all of these feelings, all that I’ve gone through for the past three years, could’ve been caused by a bad relationship? Let me explain.

My first (and only) girlfriend and I, we liked each other as friends, and after awhile, we just started dating each other. So, we did, and after awhile, of course, she asked me to kiss her. But I stalled; it didn’t feel right. So a few more weeks go by, and she asks again. This time, I plunge in and kiss for a good ten to twenty seconds, and after I pull away, I don’t feel overjoyed like her. I feel empty, depressed, sick to my stomach. I tried not to think about it, since we enjoyed each other company, giving hugs, etc. But during another date a few weeks later, we kiss again. Again, afterwards, I feel this horrible feeling in my stomach, that emptiness. I wonder now if it was shame? But anyways, at this point, I’m going, “OK, this isn’t right. Why don’t I enjoy it?” But instead of simply being content with, “wrong girl” my mind landed on the answer “I don’t like girls, maybe?” So my question is, could my feelings for guys simply be the after effects of a relationship that was never meant to be more than a friendship? Or are these feelings genuine? I don’t know anymore; everything seems like a lie. If anyone knows how to help me, or can give me a few shreds of advice, you have no idea what it would mean to me. I am to the point of tears as I write this because I, at the same time, both don’t want to think that all this pain was over nothing, and, as strange as it sounds, I’d prefer to be gay now, even if I have a hard time accepting it. It’d feel…weird to go back, you know?

Anyways, I’m being long-winded and thoroughly confusing. If you can make sense out of any of this, please, I beg of you. Help. Thank you.

PPS: (Why do I keep adding on to this?) Things are getting more painful everyday. Guy A met someone else and they hung out together, cuddling, kissing, hugging, etc. He described it all on his LJ, ending with the tagline “love high” to describe his happiness. Each word was like a stab to my heart. I thought I didn’t like him anymore, that I could just move on, but now I’m not sure. Meanwhile the distance grows between us; I haven’t talked to him in awhile, and every time he logs in, my stomach ties itself into knots, and I can’t bring myself to talk to him, to open a conversation, and every time he logs off, I kick myself. And the more I read about Guy C in his blogs, and talk to him and roleplay, the deeper the feelings for him become, despite my knowledge I shouldn’t give it any serious thoughts. With all of this inside of me, I constantly feel on the verge of tears, loneliness biting into my heart. What can I do? What should I do?

[BaciListClostridium]

Hi, Kinuki.

I guess I would suggest that you confront each issue one at a time. From what I read, it sounds like you're trying to figure out if you're gay, why you're gay, how being gay has affected your thinking, who you want to be with, and a whole lot of other stuff. That would overwhelm anyone! Maybe it would be easier if you could somehow go one by one, beginning with figuring out for yourself whether or not you are, in fact, gay. If so, then you can start thinking about how that part of yourself is going to affect other parts of your life and what you can and cannot do to control whatever happens. And then take it from there.

This next part is me just presenting my opinion, not so much giving advice or suggesting that I know what's best for you... With that caveat in mine, let me say that I don't think it's always constructive to ask yourself, "Why?" when it comes to being gay. It doesn't matter why. If you are, then you are, and that's it. For me, when I ask myself why, it's not just b/c I want to know out of sheer curiosity. It's also b/c there's a part of me that thinks that if I know why, then I can know how to reverse it -- to un-gay myself -- or whom to blame for me being this way. And being gay is not something to reverse or to blame on someone. It just is.

I think sometimes loneliness is intensified by being gay and in the closet, but this forum can really help. I hope you find some friends and good advice around here! :) Good luck coping. It can be a long process, but I think it's worth it if you emerge knowing yourself better and more truly.

[nisomer]

Kinuki-

Let me just say that you are not alone with all these emotions and feelings. I think that it is very typical for someone gay who is still trying to identify oneself to have all these feelings. I remember I used to ask myself why, and I would think to myself, "Out of all the people in the world, why do I have to be gay?" Just like you I used to be the most outgoing person, and was always friendly and had lots of friends, but I changed. I had the same problem with losing friends, and never wanting to talk to anyone. You know how I solved these problems? I came to accept myself. I accepted that I was gay, and I was ok with it, and I think if you come to acceptance with your sexuality, your life will be a whole lot better...You will make more friends, find people you have things in common with, your loneliness will go down, and then soon enough you will find someone to come out to! It only keeps getting better after that.

But remember, acceptance first.

[jenny2005]

I think that most of your feelings are very normal for someone just realizing their sexuality. From what I read it sounds like you are gay and that you are just getting used to thinking of yourself that way.
The problem with online relationships is that they are unrealistic (although a good place to start if you are trying to explore yourself). You reveal only certain parts of yourself, and deception is very easy. Also since you are not always meeting in person it leaves a lot to the imagination which can make your feelings for someone more intense because you can fill in the blanks to your own liking. Since you are new to this, and feel relatively alone, your desire for a relationship may cause you to seek that in cyberspace.
My advice would be to first work on your real life. I know that it is difficult to talk to friends especially about this, but if you can work yourself up to a discussion where you can express that you think you could be gay- it will change you forever. Having someone who knows you- the "straight" you- to talk to about this can give you courage and it will lift some of the burden off your shoulders. Also, being able to come out to your friends forces you to completely come out to yourself. At this point, I would not take your internet relationships in the roleplay forum too seriously- use them to find out more about yourself. Don't rush into anything- coming out- a serious relationship-despair (although this is a very painful time, you are NOT alone). Take time to explore your options, and things will come together for you.

[Kinuki]

Hi, Kinuki.

I guess I would suggest that you confront each issue one at a time. From what I read, it sounds like you're trying to figure out if you're gay, why you're gay, how being gay has affected your thinking, who you want to be with, and a whole lot of other stuff. That would overwhelm anyone! Maybe it would be easier if you could somehow go one by one, beginning with figuring out for yourself whether or not you are, in fact, gay. If so, then you can start thinking about how that part of yourself is going to affect other parts of your life and what you can and cannot do to control whatever happens. And then take it from there.

Yeah, one of my worst habits is thinking too broadly, focusing on the future instead of the here and now. It's a bad habit for life (but a good one too, for other things) that I picked up when I started writing. I'll try, but it's so hard for me to concentrate on just one without the others slowly weaving their way into my thought processes.

This next part is me just presenting my opinion, not so much giving advice or suggesting that I know what's best for you... With that caveat in mine, let me say that I don't think it's always constructive to ask yourself, "Why?" when it comes to being gay. It doesn't matter why. If you are, then you are, and that's it. For me, when I ask myself why, it's not just b/c I want to know out of sheer curiosity. It's also b/c there's a part of me that thinks that if I know why, then I can know how to reverse it -- to un-gay myself -- or whom to blame for me being this way. And being gay is not something to reverse or to blame on someone. It just is.

I think sometimes loneliness is intensified by being gay and in the closet, but this forum can really help. I hope you find some friends and good advice around here! :) Good luck coping. It can be a long process, but I think it's worth it if you emerge knowing yourself better and more truly.

I'm slowly realizing asking "Why" doesn't do anything, but being in the closet, it's always hard to shake that small, nagging thought that asks "What if I could change?" I guess it's something I'll have to learn to ignore.

Kinuki-

Let me just say that you are not alone with all these emotions and feelings. I think that it is very typical for someone gay who is still trying to identify oneself to have all these feelings. I remember I used to ask myself why, and I would think to myself, "Out of all the people in the world, why do I have to be gay?" Just like you I used to be the most outgoing person, and was always friendly and had lots of friends, but I changed. I had the same problem with losing friends, and never wanting to talk to anyone. You know how I solved these problems? I came to accept myself. I accepted that I was gay, and I was ok with it, and I think if you come to acceptance with your sexuality, your life will be a whole lot better...You will make more friends, find people you have things in common with, your loneliness will go down, and then soon enough you will find someone to come out to! It only keeps getting better after that.

But remember, acceptance first.

Yeah, it's always nice to know people have gone through the same thing as you. It's kind of spooky because my friend recently said the same thing to me when I told him that, when he asked me why I didn't really hang out with him much anymore, and explaining I just was changing and such, he said that I'd have to come to accept the changes before I could keep going, but more on that later.

I think that most of your feelings are very normal for someone just realizing their sexuality. From what I read it sounds like you are gay and that you are just getting used to thinking of yourself that way.

Yeqah, I suppose I am. I'll have to think on this a bit more.

The problem with online relationships is that they are unrealistic (although a good place to start if you are trying to explore yourself). You reveal only certain parts of yourself, and deception is very easy. Also since you are not always meeting in person it leaves a lot to the imagination which can make your feelings for someone more intense because you can fill in the blanks to your own liking. Since you are new to this, and feel relatively alone, your desire for a relationship may cause you to seek that in cyberspace.

That's a pretty good summary of one of my biggest fears and frustrations, actually. I realize that I may not be getting the whole picture, or that my lonliness is causing these feelings. But it's so hard to ignore what I feel at the same time, because it does feel real. I geuss what seems a likely answer is to (assuming I continue feeling this way for a prolonged period of time), one day, with a friend or two, meet him and then see how things go from there.

My advice would be to first work on your real life. I know that it is difficult to talk to friends especially about this, but if you can work yourself up to a discussion where you can express that you think you could be gay- it will change you forever. Having someone who knows you- the "straight" you- to talk to about this can give you courage and it will lift some of the burden off your shoulders. Also, being able to come out to your friends forces you to completely come out to yourself. At this point, I would not take your internet relationships in the roleplay forum too seriously- use them to find out more about yourself. Don't rush into anything- coming out- a serious relationship-despair (although this is a very painful time, you are NOT alone). Take time to explore your options, and things will come together for you.

Yeah. It's especially nice knowing that a good protion of my closest friends wouldn't really care at all. It would just be one more thing about me and that's that, especially since one, for awhile, thought I couldn't possibly be that nice and be straight. And yet, knowing that, something continually holds me back. I geuss I'll have to soulsearch until I find out why I can't come to terms with this, even with the support I know I'd probably have from my friends.

[TriBi]

Kinuki,

I think Jenny makes a lot of good points (Jenny, correct me if I am wrong, but I recollect you first posted here as a friend to a guy who "came out" to you).

Seriously, Kinuki, I think she is a remarkably empathetic person who pretty much hits the nail right on the head. You seem to have pretty much worked out where you are - the problem you have seems to be adjusting to it - and finding people to whom you can relate.

The one thing I can say is "Don't be ashamed of what you are". If, by your sexuality, you are homosexual - so what?!

If you are a "good" person (and it certainly sounds from your postings as if that is your aim) then your sexuality should be incidental.

Be proud of the "good" person that you are. Aim to meet other "good" people. Aim to gradually (I am not sure of your age) move into circles where you can meet more "like" people.

Don't be hard on yourself. You sound like a really nice person.

[Kinuki]

Kinuki,

I think Jenny makes a lot of good points (Jenny, correct me if I am wrong, but I recollect you first posted here as a friend to a guy who "came out" to you).

Seriously, Kinuki, I think she is a remarkably empathetic person who pretty much hits the nail right on the head. You seem to have pretty much worked out where you are - the problem you have seems to be adjusting to it - and finding people to whom you can relate.

The one thing I can say is "Don't be ashamed of what you are". If, by your sexuality, you are homosexual - so what?!

If you are a "good" person (and it certainly sounds from your postings as if that is your aim) then your sexuality should be incidental.

Be proud of the "good" person that you are. Aim to meet other "good" people. Aim to gradually (I am not sure of your age) move into circles where you can meet more "like" people.

Don't be hard on yourself. You sound like a really nice person.


Thanks for the kind words, it comes as a relief after having to survive a bus trip full of idiots using the word "faggot" as an insult. Anyways, I suppose that's pretty much true, but there's still quite a bit about myself I guess I have yet to discover.

One thing I realized the other day was soemthing rather odd. I found out our school had a GSA "on the down low" because it couldn't be approved by the school board. I went to a meeting, under the guise of being straight, and the entire time, I felt extremely uncomfortable, like there was a huge spotlight on me and everyone could just see right through me, right through the meticulously crafted facade that seems to be crumbling every passing day. With feeling so out of place among people like me, I kept asking myself on the ride home that day whether I would ever feel like I belong to "the community". I have yet to find my answer. :eusa_eh:

[joeyconnick]

Thanks for the kind words, it comes as a relief after having to survive a bus trip full of idiots using the word "faggot" as an insult. Anyways, I suppose that's pretty much true, but there's still quite a bit about myself I guess I have yet to discover.I totally want to turn to guys like that and say, "You guys sure are obsessed with homos, huh? What do you think that means?"

One thing I realized the other day was soemthing rather odd. I found out our school had a GSA "on the down low" because it couldn't be approved by the school board. I went to a meeting, under the guise of being straight, and the entire time, I felt extremely uncomfortable, like there was a huge spotlight on me and everyone could just see right through me, right through the meticulously crafted facade that seems to be crumbling every passing day. With feeling so out of place among people like me, I kept asking myself on the ride home that day whether I would ever feel like I belong to "the community". I have yet to find my answer. :eusa_eh:About the GSA, that's funny. I sometimes think GSAs are just groups that serve as transitional spaces where closeted youth can go under the guise of being "supportive." I'm sure that's not totally true but I suspect the number of "straight" youth who attend who later come out is probably pretty high. And maybe that's the point.

As for feeling out of place, I think all of us, at one point or another, feel alienated from some kind of "gay community" or another. And I think that's especially true when you're first exploring them (because really, there are several gay communities, not really one unified one) because hey, gay people are weird. Seriously. Some gay people are just out of their minds. Now, I don't really believe they're/we're any more crazy than people in general, although you could probably make a case that they have to face more shit and that might make them more prone to being a little nuts, but there's something to be said for how groups that gather a bunch of gay people together can be pretty strange. It's kind of a facet of already being on the "wrong" side of a serious societal taboo--it tends to make people a lot less concerned about other taboos, and if your only taboo-busting attributes are that you are into guys, dealing with all the other non-standardness can be pretty overwhelming.

I think a lot of similarities can be drawn between gay people and "theatre" people (actors). That is, gay people spend a lot of their lives acting and so they often tend to assume others expect their personalities to be a little... bigger than ordinary. But the thing is, a lot of theatre people and gay people are just as reserved or shy as the rest of the population so the perceived and real external pressures to be a certain way creates strange personality disjunctures.

I don't know if that made any sense but I understand it so hopefully someone else will too. :)

[Kinuki]

Just a bit of an update to anyone that cares.

Depression's been hitting harder and harder, and my grades are steadily declining. I feel like I'm withering away into nothingness. But the thought of telling someone makes me feel like I'm about to vomit and often triggers a burst of tears.

I'm probably go to go in and get counseling sometime soon because I don't think I'll be able to recover from this by myself anymore, even if I do come out. So many other psychological problems have become worse that it's now inevitable.

Anyways, that's a tiny little update.

[drhladnjak]

Please do get some help! If that brings tears, so be it. It sounds like you're in a rough state, but the people out there who can help with these sorts of issues will understand where you're coming from.

You totally deserve more than "withering into to nothingness"!

[imad]

Sometimes it's best not to think too much about it... It's troublesome, yeah, but it's like a fact; it's there, and there's no need to stress about it. I guess that sort of composure comes with time, and counseling may help you a lot.

Hang in there, and until you reach that state of thinking, try not to let this have any bad effects on the rest of your life.

As you've found, you're not alone, and all of us on this forum can empathise with you.

For a while, I was depressed, too. One thing on this forum that really helped me is the "good gay books" thread. A lot of the books listed there will change your view on homosexuality, and most of them have implicit names that help to avoid embarrassment at the check-out counters.

You've already taken monumental strides in the right direction; posting your story here and deciding to get counseling require a lot of courage and mental strength.

Useless and irrelevant comment:
I really like the way you write.

[xyc]

Sadly, your story (of being happy and sociable, then your personality changing, and the confusion and depression, etc. etc.) is pretty much the story of most gay people it seems, including me.

What's been helping me: this year I came out to my best friend (who turned out to be gay/maybe bisexual) and led to my first gay relationship. Also, I'm going to a counsellor who knows I'm gay and has just been able to help me with EVERYthing (being gay just being a kind of complication/added complexity to my life). Finally, I'm finding myself happy more often and I'm able to talk to people again and make friends more easily.

Everyone gave good advice so I don't have much to say. But, do remember that only a small part of "you" is made of your sexual orientation. As a gay teenager, the sexuality seems to play a huge part and it's difficult to think of the rest, but it's important to remember there's a lot more to you.

I would recommend working more on 'real' relationships as opposed to those on the internet. Basically, friends who've known you for years can help a lot and support you. Also, maybe you'll be able to find another gay person in your area like I did. Although my first relationship turned out to be pretty crappy altogether, at the very beginning I was incredibly uncomfortable with actual male-male contact, despite knowing I'm gay. However, being with him made me get over that internal homophobia and societally-nurtured discomfort at gay interactions. Now, I feel as though I actually am ready and confident enough with my sexuality to be able to flirt with guys and have a relationship and not feel uncomfortable or confused.

It's difficult to make that final "choice" ( :grin: ) as to whether you're gay or bisexual or what. People tend to label things (including themself) to make life easier to understand, but if you feel like saying 'I'm gay' will cut off possibilities or is just too hard, then maybe leave that labelling until later (perhaps after you've had some successful relationships with people of whatever gender). Even with myself: despite knowing I'm gay and having an incredible amount of 'evidence', I still find myself clinging onto the bisexual hope (I'm certain I'm not straight). Right now, I have 'feelings' for a female and we just recently flirted with each other. I don't know if these feelings are real or imagined or forced or what, but I do feel them. So, for now, I'll just continue saying I'm gay and let things with her progress naturally. I won't ask her out or force anything, but if something happens then it happens.

Sorry, pretty long reply; hope it helped! Yeah, but just know that you can always post on here if you need help or advice. (*hug*)

[joeyconnick]

Sadly, your story (of being happy and sociable, then your personality changing, and the confusion and depression, etc. etc.) is pretty much the story of most gay people it seems, including me.I want to challenge that. Not that I want to dismiss or minimise any struggle people, including Kinuki, are going through but I don't think everyone who comes out faces noticeable personality changes or depression. Confusion, sure, but there are degrees of that, too, that aren't "clinical."

I know when I was dealing with coming out, I was definitely more withdrawn from certain people in my life (like my parents) but I'm also pretty sure it wasn't to the point where people thought I should be getting professional help. Not that professional help isn't a bad idea in some cases, and it's certainly something I've sought later on in my life (but not for, tellingly, anything having to do with my being gay). Just thought I'd mention that in case someone thought I was against therapy.

But what I have a problem with is the construction of ALL queer youth as having such a hard time dealing with coming out that they need professional help and face huge mental health challenges. Some of them don't, and when I say "some," I don't mean just me. Dealing with being gay is a very different thing for everyone. For some people it's not big deal and for others it's a monumental struggle. I just know that when I was newly out, sometimes I felt like maybe I wasn't really gay because I'd never been suicidal growing up and none of my friends rejected me for being gay. And that kind of thinking is what I'd like to debunk: that, simply by dint of being gay, people AUTOMATICALLY face serious, life-threatening issues.

That's not to say that some people don't face serious, life-threatening issues when they're coming out. It's just to point out that, like with straight people, gay people have a whole variety of experiences as they figure themselves out. Just like it's not a good idea to assume that teens coming out in the 21st century don't have to face any kinds of problems, I think it's just as bad an idea to assume they're all in danger of clinical depression.

[joeyconnick]

Just a bit of an update to anyone that cares.

Depression's been hitting harder and harder, and my grades are steadily declining. I feel like I'm withering away into nothingness. But the thought of telling someone makes me feel like I'm about to vomit and often triggers a burst of tears.

I'm probably go to go in and get counseling sometime soon because I don't think I'll be able to recover from this by myself anymore, even if I do come out. So many other psychological problems have become worse that it's now inevitable.

Anyways, that's a tiny little update.That sounds awful... I'm really glad you're open to seeing a counsellor--I think that's probably the smartest move at this point. It's certainly very unlikely to hurt.

And sometimes crying is a very good thing, not a bad one. I kinda wish I cried more, actually. I think it's better than keeping stuff all bottled up inside.

[xyc]

Joeyconnick: I never said (nor meant to imply) that every gay person has to deal with huge problems and then develop clinical depression and attempt suicide. I wrote what I did because pretty much every gay person I know and the vast majority of the stories of gay youth that I've read (on here and elsewhere) seem to have the story where 'I was sociable and talkative but then I became more withdrawn and reserved'. I wrote "most gay people" and that was a jump, but it wasn't 'all queer youth' and it was based on personal evidence/observation (not that I'm for 'speculative learning'). I should've chosen my words better I suppose... the word 'depression' could've been left out or replaced with 'unhappiness' (it never meant clinical depression); and by the word 'happy' I meant more 'talkative' or 'outgoing'.

[nisomer]

good idea Kinuki, i think it will help a lot.

[joeyconnick]

Joeyconnick: I never said (nor meant to imply) that every gay person has to deal with huge problems and then develop clinical depression and attempt suicide. I wrote what I did because pretty much every gay person I know and the vast majority of the stories of gay youth that I've read (on here and elsewhere) seem to have the story where 'I was sociable and talkative but then I became more withdrawn and reserved'. I wrote "most gay people" and that was a jump, but it wasn't 'all queer youth' and it was based on personal evidence/observation (not that I'm for 'speculative learning'). I should've chosen my words better I suppose... the word 'depression' could've been left out or replaced with 'unhappiness' (it never meant clinical depression); and by the word 'happy' I meant more 'talkative' or 'outgoing'.I just wanted to provide an alternative experience: I became much more talkative and outgoing after coming out and most of the gay people I know didn't become or stay terribly unhappy. Not to say coming out was necessarily something they'd want to go through again but it wasn't this huge angst-fest that I see it painted as over and over again. My only point is that there is wide range of coming out experiences and the awful, terrible, difficult ones tend to get the most press. And I think, ultimately, that's not a good thing because then it reinforces the idea that being gay is a terrible, difficult thing. And frankly, at least for me, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. And while it wasn't exactly easy, it was certainly worth the effort involved and I would do it again in a heartbeat.

[BaciListClostridium]

I just wanted to provide an alternative experience: I became much more talkative and outgoing after coming out and most of the gay people I know didn't become or stay terribly unhappy. Not to say coming out was necessarily something they'd want to go through again but it wasn't this huge angst-fest that I see it painted as over and over again. My only point is that there is wide range of coming out experiences and the awful, terrible, difficult ones tend to get the most press. And I think, ultimately, that's not a good thing because then it reinforces the idea that being gay is a terrible, difficult thing. And frankly, at least for me, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. And while it wasn't exactly easy, it was certainly worth the effort involved and I would do it again in a heartbeat.

Yeah, everybody's experiences w/ being gay are different. I personally have been in the process of coming out for the past four years, and I still struggle w/ my gay identity. Sometimes I feel bad for having such a hard time coming to terms w/ it, as I know lots of people who, like joey, dealt with the shit and moved on seemingly much faster than I've managed to do. But you know... to each his own.

[joeyconnick]

Yeah... I don't think feeling bad you haven't come out faster or easier is a useful way of looking at it, anymore than feeling bad you came out relatively unscathed. It's just like... what you go through is what you go through.

[xyc]

I just wanted to provide an alternative experience: I became much more talkative and outgoing after coming out and most of the gay people I know didn't become or stay terribly unhappy. Not to say coming out was necessarily something they'd want to go through again but it wasn't this huge angst-fest that I see it painted as over and over again. My only point is that there is wide range of coming out experiences and the awful, terrible, difficult ones tend to get the most press. And I think, ultimately, that's not a good thing because then it reinforces the idea that being gay is a terrible, difficult thing. And frankly, at least for me, it was the best thing that ever happened to me. And while it wasn't exactly easy, it was certainly worth the effort involved and I would do it again in a heartbeat.

I think that most people do become more talkative and outgoing after coming out, also. I've just started actually coming out to people and (as I wrote before) that's been one of the biggest things which has helped me to be happier, more outgoing and such. I think coming out is great, but it's in that hiding period before you come out (perhaps after the questioning and realization period, or perhaps still questioning) where I hear over and over that the person's personality seems to change and they get reserved. Well, there's a simple explanation: in order to better hide your sexual orientation, it's easier to avoid conversations where sexuality plays a part (and it plays a part in many conversations of teens, even just as jokes).

I agree that most people probably become more talkative and outgoing after coming out; I was referring to the 'hiding', and possibly 'confused', stage. However, I disagree with saying that being gay is not difficult. It is difficult. However, I don't think it's "terrible".

[imad]

Maybe this debate should go into another thread? I think it's beginning to lose its connection Kinuki's thread, though it's still a very interesting topic to discuss.

[joeyconnick]

Maybe this debate should go into another thread? I think it's beginning to lose its connection Kinuki's thread, though it's still a very interesting topic to discuss.Good point... I'll do that.

[TriBi]

Just a bit of an update to anyone that cares.

Depression's been hitting harder and harder, and my grades are steadily declining. I feel like I'm withering away into nothingness. But the thought of telling someone makes me feel like I'm about to vomit and often triggers a burst of tears.

I'm probably go to go in and get counseling sometime soon because I don't think I'll be able to recover from this by myself anymore, even if I do come out. So many other psychological problems have become worse that it's now inevitable.

Anyways, that's a tiny little update.

Well, it certainly sounds like you need to talk to someone. Bottling everything up inside is not good - and if you're not sure what to do...well, it isn't going to make you feel good.

Apart from counselling - are there any "Gay youth/help groups in your area that you could go to? What about some sort of anonymous phone "helpline"? (I know there are "lifeline" groups here in the telephone directiry that people can ring to talk). Just getting things off your chest to someone you don't know might be beneficial. Do you find any sort of relief from discussing it here? Some people even find that the simple act of "unloading" on sympathetic forum members can help.

Whatever you do - it certainly sounds like you need to find someone with some empathy and understanding. Good luck - but make up your mind to do something. Unfortunately...Apathy and inaction won't do anything to make you feel better.

[Shannice]

Hi Kinuki,

okay after reading the novel you've written here is some advice:frist of all you need to stop avoding the fact that you have feelings for men. You either do or you don't.When i was battleing my self i had to make up my mind. Oh and another thing, you are not alone. Many people go through this. Eventually, i came to the conclusion that i'm bi and not and not just a les. You need to spend sometime to find your self. Go to your friends, that way you know who your true friends are. Start off by asking them what the think of gay peopleor strike up a conversation. Take it slow. You have to be strong for your self frist. Because if your not you'll do nothing but knock your self down again. people are going to call you names it's your job to make them look stupied. Now know one is asking you to put your self out there. You just need to creat your own style.For example, this girl that went to my school would talk to me in class and we became friends, this lasted for awhile. She asked me if i wanted to have children, i said yeah but just one. Then i told her thats after i get married.Thats when the ouestion came who are you gonna marry i told her the person im with who is raven. Long story short. she was shocked that i was even gay or dating a girl. Know one has to kknow your business unless you tell them. You can still be the person you want to be as far as your carreer. So my advice to you is stop lieing to your self. then take it slow with the coming out. AND Kiniki it's okay to be open in a relationship it's okay to talk about it. Feel free to talk to me any time.

Shannice

[Kinuki]

All worries of how to come out to my parents are no longer a concern; they took care of that for me.

There exist no words in the human vocabulary to describe the shame and hurt I felt. I had just finished accepting myself and feeling ok with being gay when this happened, and all of that progress was completely shattered and destroyed. I am questioing myself all over again, and cannot even think about that night without wanting to curl up and cry. It was a violation; like being mentally raped. That's how I can describe it: like being raped. It robs you of your dignity, your assurance, and makes you question everything. And the guilt I feel is insurmountable; I blame myself for everything that happened.

I have failed.

[Jim1454]

If your parents didn't handle this properly, it isn't your fault! Don't blame yourself for their ignorance and insensitivity!!! And you DON'T have anything to feel GUILTY about!!!

It sounds like your parents have failed you - you haven't failed. I don't know what happend, but it doesn't sound like it was good. I'm glad you came back to this site to share your feelings, because it's important that you get some of this stuff off your chest.

Don't dispair. We're all here for you. Keep in touch with this good bunch of folks.

[Jim1454]

I've now taken the time to read this entire thread - holy mackrel it was long! - and I have to agree with an earlier comment - your original posting was incredibly well written!

So what? Well - it suggests to me that you're someone who is far more 'put together' than a lot of people - gay or straight. It says to me that you're bright and insightful and someone with a bright future ahead of them. I really mean that!

But you have, also as someone suggested here, this added comlication in life in that you're gay - or at least not 100% straight. And that's not an easy complication to deal with. Some people, given their circumstances, deal with it better than others.

Are you still going to counselling? If not, get an appointment and go. You need help right now dealing with the feelings that you are having.

I think you suggested that most of your true friends likely wouldn't have a problem at all with your sexuality, you were just hesitant to tell anyone. Well, now that your parents know, you should tell your friends too and get from them the support that you obviously didn't get from your family. Don't try to deal with this on your own.

I'm not sure any of this helps. I just hate to see others experiencing the kind of pain that I have also been through - and I want to help. Let us know if there is something that we could do for you to help you through this.

[Kinuki]

I never was able to bring myself to go to counseling. Counseling and coming out are perhaps my twin peaks of Everestian proportions. Reaching either, or somehow both, would be a sign that I am of a much more put-together mental state than I really am. Though, for whatever it's worth, it's probably not depression. It's much more liekly bi-polar, if anything at all.

As for coming out to my friends, the very idea make my stomach tie itself into a naval knot and my breaths come more rapidly. I was never at the point of coming out to them before this happened, and this retardation of my coming out process has only pushed me back farther in this regard. Though they would accept it, I'm just not ready, and not comfortable enough with myself or the very idea, to do it yet.

[Jim1454]

Your last statement is key - you have to be comfortable with the idea yourself before you should take any additional steps - so give yourself permission to do just that. I was just thinking that your friends might offer the support and acceptance that your family hasn't.

In terms of getting counselling, I really do think it would be helpful. If you think you're bi-polar, that's even more reason to get help. I'm no expert, but I think there are medications that would help you with that, and with that under control you'd be more able to deal with your orientation.

Stick around in here. Read the other stories. Ask for more advice and pose more questions. Hopefully, the more you chat 'virtually' about this, the more comfortable you'll be about having a real live discussion with someone else soon.

Until then, take care. Don't hesitate to write.

[xxAngelOnFirexx]

I'm bipolar and I just did a report on it. 15% of untreated bipolar patients end up commiting suicide. So if I were you I'd start trying to find your right med coctail! It took me years but i'm finally on the correct meds and I'm doing MUCH better. (btw sent you a PM)

[Kinuki]

Nothing has changed.

Dunno if anyone on here knows how to get a hold of a former member named confusedkid, but used to talk to him a lot; he was one of the first people really I talked to about my confusion. Haven't seen him online in at least a year now, and seems like emailing him is futile. How many other key people responsible for making me feel ok with being gay can disappear without a word, leaving me to pick up the pieces? I am breathless with anticipation.