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Sexism

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by dolphinsneu, Jul 21, 2013.

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  1. dolphinsneu

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    [Admin note: the content in this thread can be extremely triggering for survivors of rape. Proceed with caution.]

    I just got into an argument with a girl I met online.

    We were talking about paying on the first date. I told her I never do. She told me that wasn't being a gentleman and that was why so many of my dates were going downhill. I told her that I never pay for somebody until I know that they are not just after my money. I used to pay, but then when I started not getting second dates, I stopped, realizing girls were just after my money. I do pay for my friends sometimes when we hang out, but that's because I know they like me and are not after my money. I compared it to a girl not wanting to have sex on the first date because she wants to make sure she is not being taken advantage of.

    "Man, women have it so easy in the world," I commented. "They get a free ride on dates and if they don't, it's considered not being a gentleman."

    She told me I was being sexist and told me never to contact her again. I delightedly obliged.

    In my experience, I do believe women have it easier in the world than men do, especially in terms of relationships and dating. Also, I have never witnessed any of the hardships women claim they face in the working world, even though I have looked. I don't understand how this viewpoint makes me sexist.

    Anybody care to enlighten me?
     
  2. Randy

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    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  3. dolphinsneu

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    Love that!!!!
     
  4. Owen

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    The "men pay on a first date" thing is definitely an out-dated way of thinking. My personal philosophy is to just go dutch on the first date, unless one person had to go out of their way to get there or drove you both there, in which case it's reasonable for the other person to pay. But apparently I'm in the minority on that; the standard philosophy these days seems to be that whoever asked the other person out on a date should pay, regardless of sex.

    But women definitely don't have it "easy", and if you really listened to the stories they tell of the kind of shit they have to put up with without dismissing it because you haven't seen it personally, you'd know that. I could just as easily say, "I've never seen a woman call a man sexist because he wouldn't pay on the first date," and dismiss your experiences that way. That kind of viewpoint might not make you sexist, but it does keep you from being part of the solution, it does make you inadvertently perpetuate the problem.

    Also, ILIKECATS, those pics are incredibly misogynistic. "Overreaction" is just a way for men to dismiss women's feelings when they don't want to take them into account. And even if men did pay for dates, it would not justify a 77 cents to one dollar pay gap. Plus, the vast majority of women don't want chivalry because chivalry is based on the idea that they're week and need protection. They want equality.
     
  5. dolphinsneu

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    I don't get that pay gap. What does it mean?
     
  6. Sarcastic Luck

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    I have to agree with the pictures actually, because I've met women that actually think that way. Hell. My mom wants me to be with someone so that I'll "have someone to protect me".
     
  7. MerBear

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    Okay let me restate that then.

    They dont apply to all women. hopefully you can agree to that.
     
  8. Jinkies

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    I've got 2 parts to this post, so I'll start with how women do face hardships:

    In this world, you're constantly bombarded with advertisements, stores, friends, etc. that basically shape who you are, or rather WHAT you are. For guys, it's "be a man" Plain and simple. And that has a wide variety of things. You could be barbecuing burgers with a nice collared shirt on, or watching the football game with a beer belly drinking your 29th Miller Genuine Draft (although I'd advise against the count). You could even be blowing up the Eiffel tower. For a girl, that means a lot. The main message is "be sexy" That includes Big boobs, small waist BUT NOT TOO SMALL OR YOU'RE ANOREXIC, makeup so you hide all your fugly pimples, nice thick, flowing hair, everything that takes it for a guy to want to have sex with you.

    If you don't do it enough, you'd be:

    1. fat
    2. anorexic
    3. ugly
    4. stupid
    5. Lesbo

    Do it just a tad too much, and you're

    1. A whore/skank
    2. all for attention

    On top of THAT, you've got to make sure you check out as someone who's popular. That also includes being in the top of your class, or being close to the boss. Do it too much, and you're a nerd, do it not enough and you're stupid.

    It's so easy to fuck one little thing up and then get hounded upon by many people of your own sex, just because you might have put on a little too much makeup or just a tad under. Frankly, I'm pretty glad I was born with a penis, even though I have to deal with "You're such a bastard" almost every week just because of it.

    The other part of this is that believe it or not, fights between girls tend to be much more vicious than ones with guys. There's biting, hair-pulling, punching, kicking, all sorts of things guys would never have the gall to do during a fight.

    So onto part II:

    I would find both of you guilty for being sexist. You because you generalized millions upon millions of people with your argument and her because of her argument. Not all girls will flip out because you didn't pay (some girls will actually feel guilty for not paying. I've been down that road), and not all guys have the money or reason to pay for the girl.


    I'm not saying no girl ever has ever thought that way. There's good reason to say that there have been. But here's the thing:

    People are people. Male, female, queer, androgyne, gay, bisexual, pansexual, whatever, they all have different backgrounds. And because of those different backgrounds, they will ALL react different than another. Why can't we seem to grasp this after thousands of years as a race? Why?

    And why the fuck did I have to say that on EC of all places?
     
    #8 Jinkies, Jul 21, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2013
  9. MerBear

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    This does NOT apply to all women. I had to restate that but honestly, Those pictures are offensive
     
  10. Rakkaus

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    Well we live in a patriarchal society that overall is dominated by men. But patriarchy screws over males just as it does females.

    Men are viewed as strong and manly warriors who need to stand up and do everything for themselves without showing a hint of emotion, while women are viewed as weak, delicate, emotional creatures who need to be rescued by men.

    This manifests itself in a wide variety of ways. Some might be interpreted as beneficial to women. (For example, traditional male chivalry of paying for dates, or giving up seats on a train for a woman) But these 'perks' of patriarchy are just as insulting to women as they are to men; men and women should be united in overthrowing this system rather than just resenting each other over it.

    But I definitely agree that this mindset harms males.

    From a young age, the problems start; traditionally, while girls are allowed to stay with their mothers until they are older, conventional American child-rearing encourages a clean break between a boy and his mother very early on in life. Recent studies in developmental psychology have found this is very traumatic in a boy's life. (Recently read a good book on this topic). Boys need love and support just as much as girls do, yet our society acts as though boys are all born tough and strong and devoid of emotion. Many of these boys will develop issues as such as ADD, fail in school, and act out in violent ways.

    The fact that male circumcision is legal while female circumcision is illegal is another example of how this mindset manifests itself in our legal system. Girls need protection, but even as little babies, boys are fair game for being sexually violated and literally physically desensitized by removing their most sensitive body parts- because sensitivity in a boy is a bad thing. It's no wonder that later on in life, adult males who are sexually violated rarely feel comfortable reporting to the police about being raped and victimized sexually.

    Then we get into the fact of how gender policing hits boys especially hard. While girls can be rough-and-tumble 'tomboys' and wear trousers and play sports, boys who are shy and sensitive and want to play with dolls and dress-up, are subject to extreme ridicule both from peers and from parents. However this is not girls' fault; the root of this problem is the patriarchy, which demonizes femininity. It's the same mindset that is at the root of homophobia toward gay men: men who act in feminine ways are inferior and subject to disparagement by society. Traditional masculine values are revered as the gold standard to which every person, male and female, should strive to adhere to in order to succeed in our society.

    So sexism is less an individual thing than a systemic thing, and it harms both sexes greatly. Both males and females should strive to eliminate it and it's pernicious effects on our social, legal, economic, and political structures.
     
  11. boysdontcry

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    It means that on average, women are paid 77 cents for every dollar a man earns, in the same job. Women of color earn 62 cents for every dollar, and trans* people earn even less than that. If that isn't blatant sexism, I don't know what is.

    Women don't want your money, they want equality, but so many have been brainwashed into taking it without thinking.
     
  12. Jinkies

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    This is the only part of your post I sadly have to disagree with.

    While I'm personally not for mutilating genitals (especially at a young age), I'm pretty sure that has more to do with the 1st Amendment and Freedom of Religion. If we made circumcision illegal, that'd be an act against the 1st amendment that sadly protects circumcision.

    Although what the fuck do I know? We just had several bills passed that clearly violated the 4th.

    Everything else in your post:

    [​IMG]
     
    #12 Jinkies, Jul 21, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2013
  13. Pret Allez

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    I realize this may not be what you want to hear, but have you considered the possibility that the women you date just don't like you or don't feel any chemistry with you, which is why you're not getting second dates?

    Just as you don't owe a girl the meal on the first date, she doesn't owe you sex on the first date. But that's where the similarity ends. The level of exploitation that we're talking about here is wildly different.

    That was the correct response from her. Unfortunately, it didn't teach anything. The reason she responded to you that way was not that she genuinely thought the "man buys the meal" convention should be followed; rather, it was the level of entitlement you demonstrated and your general lack of understanding the issues women commonly face. The way you're talking here, you're literally trying to buy the second date. As to women having it easy, that's a statement that you are making without having done the research. Women do not in fact have it easy all the time. Women, in many fields, are discriminated against in both hiring and promotion. That's only one example. Compared to men, in general, women, in general, face considerable and unique challenges that it's worth men understanding and being sensitive to.

    I think the "in your experience" part of that is controlling here. You're talking about never having "witnessed any of the hardships." Why don't you go and do some research?

    That response was completely inappropriate. In addition to being wrong, it doesn't actually contribute anything to the thread.

    It's pretty wild that you think that the right to bodily integrity is somehow overridden by the Almighty God, the First Amendment Establishment Clause.



    Ziester Adrian
     
    #13 Pret Allez, Jul 21, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2013
  14. Randy

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    My bad. I was just putting those photos on here for pure comic relief. They weren't meant to be taken seriously. But regardless, I sincerely apologize from the depths of my heart.
     
  15. dolphinsneu

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    In the dating world I believe women have it easier:

    1) They can get sex anytime they want. Most girls I talk to on okc have an on call sex partner

    2) They get tons of messages on dating websites and can take their picks. Guys have to send out hundreds of messages

    3) They don't have to worry about false assault charges

    I honestly believe my life would be a lot easier if I was biologically female.
     
  16. MerBear

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    I understand that and I forgive you but its giving him pure pleasure and thinking its okay which I dont like because he's generalizing women or stereotyping per say

    ---------- Post added 21st Jul 2013 at 08:25 PM ----------

    1) Not true for all women
    2) Not true for all women
    3) Not true for all women.

    Your generalizing a whole gender and that's not right
     
  17. catatonie

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    sighing forever
     
  18. Owen

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    Have you ever considered that maybe the don't want sex any time they want? That maybe the fact that men are hounding after them is something with more downsides than upsides?

    The proportion of false sexual assault charges vs. legitimate ones is exactly the same as the proportion of false charges for any crime vs. legitimate ones. The problem is not false charges. The problem is all the changes that don't go through.

    Did you know that one in six women will be raped in their lifetime? Meanwhile, I believe the statistic is that for every 500 rapes, there's one false rape charge (and most of those charges are dropped before they go to court). Try to tell us women have it easier again.
     
  19. Jinkies

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    No, you had the right word. He's generalizing. If he were stereotyping, he'd have an entire set of behavior and mannerisms along with clothes, accent, etc.

    They're similar, but here's the difference:

    Generalizing comes during an argument and when someone makes a case. For example, "All old guys are cynical" or "All gays eat poop"
    Stereotyping is creating a character, similar to a trope. For example, "The cynical old guy" or "The gay guy"
     
    #19 Jinkies, Jul 21, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2013
  20. Rakkaus

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    Freedom of Religion has nothing to do with it, otherwise we would allow parents to commit human sacrifice on their children if their religion demanded it. Freedom of Religion ends the moment it begins to infringe upon the rights of another. Not to mention, many Muslims believe it is their part of their religion to perform female circumcision, yet it is completely illegal. So no, the First Amendment does not protect male circumcision anymore than it does female circumcision. Sexism and stupidity do.

    The Constitution rather should guarantee equal protection to male babies as it does to female babies from having their genitals mutilated, but alas it does not. That's one manifestation of how our sexist society harms males, in that male children aren't considered to be in need of protecting. It's quite blatant discrimination against males, one of the most glaring examples there is in American law, yet is rarely discussed by those in power.
     
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