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Monogamy and abuse

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Hexagon, Aug 1, 2013.

  1. Hexagon

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    Alright, so some of you may have heard about my brother, who is apparently abusive in relationships.

    This, along with my general attitude towards sex and social issues has led me to a question:

    Is monogamy really the best type of relationship? It seems to me that if polyamory were the norm, that the type of abuse in relationships that my brother perpetrates (Isolating and controlling his girlfriend, with or without violence, that is still an unhealthy relationship, and its still abuse) would probably be unheard of.

    What do you guys think?

    Oh, and please be civil. I know that poly in general can be a controversial topic. I'm in no way suggesting that monogamy causes abuse or anything.
     
  2. MerBear

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    I don't know. I prefer it because I'm not good at multitasking hahaha. thats a joke. but It's not the best type of relationship but i think, it's just simpler and that's why the majority prefer it but it can cause many many problems so can polygamy relationships but I feel one on one, is a bit more complicated
     
  3. LinkLarkin

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    I've read something interesting somewhere that suggests that the fact that humans cheat, stray, leave, or at the very least notice other attractive people while they're in relationships, means that we are not naturally monogamous and should not consider mating for life to be the norm. I don't know if that's true but it's an interesting thought.

    I guess the appeal of a monogamous relationship is that we tend to form more emotional relationships than a lot of animals who are just concerned with reproduction, and at the start we just want to spend all of our time with that one person. Even if you're in an open/polyamorous relationship, it's still easy to get jealous of the time they're spending with others, even if you're not jealous of the attention.

    I'm not sure about polyamory in relation to abuse though, I can picture a controlling man essentially forcing many "wives" to be his personal slaves. Maybe I'm just not being open minded enough, I don't know. I guess different types of relationships work for different people.
     
  4. dreamcatcher

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    Well, what evidence do you have to support that polyamory would make abuse less likely? I'm just curious as to what your reasoning is. I don't know much about polyamorous relationships to have a say. And im sorry about your brother. I have a cousin that is abusive but he gets like that mostly when he's drunk.
     
  5. BudderMC

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    Monogamy has advantages and disadvantages, evolutionarily-speaking. It's simply social norm that we have it in modern-day society.

    The idea of relationships is essentially to "pair up" with other people in order to gain all the benefits of the other person and help to produce and protect genetically-favourable offspring. Monogamy works best for this, because to have multiple partners means to split your time and resources amongst multiple people.

    On the other hand, having multiple partners allows for multiple offspring with different gene sets - could be good, could be bad. It's essentially a "quality vs. quantity" (of offspring) issue.

    Food for thought: if we aren't a naturally monogamous species, why is it that when we tend to crush (I mean seriously crush) on someone, we only do it to one person at a time?

    I disagree with the idea that abuse wouldn't happen because of polygamous relationships. If anything, depending on how you define "abuse", you may see even more of it due to general neglect of a person's multiple partners. I'll also note that abuse isn't exactly due to the result of monogamy, but much more likely due to the personality/mental attributes of the people involved.
     
  6. Jinkies

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    After talking with you in the chat, you already know my stance on the whole thing: He really needs therapy, at the VERY least. That's what the problem is.

    And as for polyamory, I don't really think it's relevant. What is relevant is abuse. The two are completely unrelated. I'm sure that there are polyamorous relationships that have absolutely no abuse whatsoever. It's like any other relationship.

    The problem is his abuse, not his sexual orientation. I mean, you've probably gathered that already. What he needs is an institution that does well in reform. And I mean VERY well in reform.
     
  7. Hexagon

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    I don't have any evidence, unfortunately. I don't have the resources to conduct trials :frowning2:

    My reasoning is that if (as in polyamory, as opposed to polygamy), it is the norm to have multiple partners, to have one of your partners trying to isolate you would be both much more difficult, and much more obvious, in terms of alarm bells.

    The reason I differentiate between polyamory and polygamy is because usually, in polygamy, there's just the tradition of one person (usually male) having many partners, and those partners only having one partner, which would defeat the point entirely.

    As has been mentioned, I agree that we as a species aren't very good at monogamy, but thats a bit of a different conversation.
     
    #7 Hexagon, Aug 1, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2013
  8. TheEdend

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    There is seriously very little evidence that you can demonstrate to try and prove that we are "naturally" a monogamous species. The concept of marrying for love alone is not older than 100 years!

    As for crushes, you are implying that because you crush on someone at a time it means that the feeling is eternal. If people didn't have the ability to crush and sexually crave multiple people at one single time then we wouldn't have 40% of people cheating.


    I'm personally all for polyamory, but this isn't quite true.

    While some types of abuse wouldn't be as common, the ones you mentioned above, emotional and physical abuse would still be fairly common.

    For a successful polyamory relationship to work, just like a successful monogamous relationship, everyone involved has to go through a lot of self-analysis and a lot conversations to make sure that no abuse is being done.

    Specially for our culture, anyone willing to try a polyamours relationship needs to do a lot of homework, a lot of reading, and to be very self-aware.
     
    #8 TheEdend, Aug 1, 2013
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  9. June Cleaver

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    I have to ask what is wrong with him keeping tabs on his GF? That is pretty normal for guys as I have experienced. My current BF knows where I am at all times and who I talk to and it does not bother me at all. Until reading this I thought all guys acted that way in relationships. He tells me what he wants me to do if anything above normal household chores and calls and checks throughout the day during his breaks. My last BF was a bit overboard in that he would not even let me go to the grocery store alone or leave the house alone ever. As long as he is not beating her or fighting about it with her, is it still abuse? I would never want a 3 way relationship personally. One guy to keep up with is a full time job and plenty for me! I just never thought of the possession thing as a form of abuse, but normal for a guy to do to his GF in a serious relationship. I would love to hear more on this topic as it is new to me. June
     
  10. BudderMC

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    Oh, I'm not trying to say that we're definitively monogamous. In fact, I argued we're both inclined to be monogamous and polygamous.

    As for the crush thing, I really did just say it as food for thought: something worth thinking about. Wasn't implying any direction either way with it, it was just something I thought about as I was typing my reply and it was interesting to me. I didn't mean to say it was eternal - quite the opposite, in fact. Most people will have many love interests over the course of their lives to varying degrees. I just thought it was interesting that we typically only hold really strong feelings towards one at a time.
     
  11. TheEdend

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    Must have read your post wrong then.

    I would still highly debate the thought that evolutionary wise monogamy was ever an option, but i'll let it go for the sake of this thread :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:

    I will say though that the bold statement you made is actually highly biased towards the romanticized concept that we have of monogamy today.

    For example, penguins will pick one partner and stay faithful to them for a whole mating season, but after that season its over then they pick another partner. Does that make them monogamous simply because they have strong feelings for one partner at a time?

    Granted I'm also a bit biased. I highly hate the idea that the romanticized concept of monogamy that we have right now is the "right way" and the "natural way", and I believe that many of our problems stem from the fact that people don't realize that marriage as we say it today is our new social experiment that we are still trying to figure out and that it has to be treated as such.
     
  12. Hexagon

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    I think it's very definitely abusive. You said it yourself, possession. It is absolutely, always, and without exception wrong to own, (or behave as if you do, since I don't recognise such ownership) another person. Also, since you suggest this is something men do to women, it implies the woman is inferior and subservient. I don't mean to offend you, but the way you describe your relationship sounds a bit unhealthy - unless you exercise the same power over him.

    Would you consider it acceptable for a girl to tell her boyfriend who he was allowed to be friends with, where he could go, what to do and for her to constantly invade his privacy. The fact is that a healthy relationship is based on trust, and if there is an understanding that neither of the participants in the relationship sleep with anyone else, that should be respected without the need to constantly verify this without the other person's consent. But in the case of my brother, they weren't even together when he checked her phone.
     
  13. Gen

    Gen
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    BudderMC does have a good point here.

    Monogamy is actually not that rare in other mammals. The instinctive desire for reproduction isn't actually to have as many children as possible, as most people elude. Female animals have been known to use their own biological forms of abortion frequently, and it isn't exactly rare for either sex to kill off young that doesn't live up their standards. The desire for reproduction, which leads to the desire for sexual interaction, is about efficiency. Especially for mammals, because many of us are prefer to horde together than live in solidarity. If one wolf in the pack isn't worth his weight, than he is simply a waste of food.

    If we were simply hardwired to reproduce, all sex would bring us an equal level of satisfaction psychologically. We are hardwired to reproduce efficiently, which is why we tend to seek partners with qualities we admire, because even if we are not consciously attempting to reproduce, subconsciously it still seems 'more important'.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~​


    Oh, and I didn't give my thoughts on the actual thread question. No I don't believe having a polyamorous norm would help domestic abuse.

    For example many rapist become aggravated when their partner acts, or appears, to actually be enjoying the altercation. The vast majority of rapists don't rape because they just wanted to have sex with a specific person; if that were the case they would have at least tried to ask that person personally first. Most rapists rape because they enjoy the actual act of raping.

    Abusive people often gradually begin to abuse over smaller and smaller things because they find satisfaction in the actual abuse far more than putting someone in their place. Its much more of a psychological than custom issue.
     
    #13 Gen, Aug 1, 2013
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  14. PurpleRain

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    Controlling attitudes are most certainly a form of abuse and they come from BOTH sexes. I was in an abusive relationship for 2 years, and I'm still deeply affected by it. My ex used to go through everything that I owned, my computer, my phone, my dresser drawers, literally everything to see if she found any traces of me talking to or hanging out with anyone else. If she DID find anything then she would get so angry that it made me fear for myself. However she was passive-aggressive, so rather than use violence to get me she would verbally assault me in front of other people and alone just to make sure that I always felt inadequate because she knew that I already had an inadequacy problem. She would also bite me using the excuse of her libido, but in reality quite a few of the times it happened she was angry and wanted to hurt me. She would also use my sympathetic and trusting nature against me when she was angry or upset to cause me emotional trauma. I remember several times that she threatened suicide to keep me in line and she used other means to cause me to worry or feel terrible. She didn't like my friends (what few I had) or my family and I wasn't allowed to go anywhere or do anything that I enjoyed doing; It was really bad and has had severe lasting effects on me including a dependency on her that I still can't quite get over. So anyone that thinks that that kind of behaviour isn't abusive, it is, and can have just as bad effects as physical abuse and BOTH sexes will do it. It's not just men, women do it just as much.

    Polygamy won't solve anything. The controlling attitude is a part of that person and they will display it in all their relationships until they can understand that what they're doing is wrong and seek counseling to help with it. That is the only way their behaviour will stop.
     
    #14 PurpleRain, Aug 1, 2013
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  15. justjade

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    I prefer monogamy, but I admit, it's not for everyone. It's hard work, and sometimes keeping the other person happy or at least complacent is just not worth it. It just depends on the person, like anything else. I do think, though, since I've been in an abusive relationship, that finding another person can help. It can make you feel better about yourself while also getting support in leaving the relationship with the abusive partner. But it can also backfire because if the new person leaves you, it hurts even worse.
     
  16. AwesomGaytheist

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    Well in terms of STD's and such, monogamy is the best idea. But as for like an open relationship or something, that's up to the couple, and only they can decide.
     
  17. FreeFlow9917

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    Idk, i feel like as if in certain situations one person is enough, while you may feel cerain feelings for a certain group of people. All i know is in the past, my step-dad is married to mom,ad my real dad used to mentally abuse me, but we are know pretty good, i still feel uncomfortable around my dad and step dad.
     
  18. TheEdend

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    That's actually not true. Monogamy in mammals, a male and a female who raise an offspring together as a unit, is quite rare with only around 9% of mammals being documented to do so. Monogamy is quite common in birds, though.

    You are correct, but this leads to most mammals to be more into polygyny rather than monogamy since most females will choose the toughest males around, which is usually only a select one or two. Also, most mammals don't have sex for pleasure so trying to compare the level of satisfaction of a sexual encounter is imposing how we view sex on other species.

    I will agree, again, that polyamory won't lead to a decrease in domestic violence, though.
     
    #18 TheEdend, Aug 1, 2013
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  19. Gen

    Gen
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    I wasn't insinuating that it wasn't rare in any possible sense, simply not as rare as most people tend to perpetuate. People tend to believe that nature instills instinctive polygamy, but this idea is not true.

    Either way, in the frame of human society, the mindset that I originally claimed still favors monogamy over polygamy, regardless of its similarities to polygyny. On a psychological level, human sexuality at large favors monogamy over polygamy even in regards to reproduction, as humans no longer have an inherent need for physical perfection in order for survival. This is not to say that the brain does not active seek out certain qualities, rather that those that it does do not exclusively fall in accordance with the qualities that are valued in the animal kingdom.

    I agree with what you are saying, but speaking only in the boundaries of this topic, unless we are going to bring back polygyny as a normality, reproductive preferences still favor monogomy over polygamy.

    I wasn't imposing our views on other species; that entire last paragraph, and every other instance when I referred to 'we', I was speaking towards the human population, no all life as a whole.
     
  20. TheEdend

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    ^ Eh, I think we are talking about two different concepts of monogamy.

    In the animal world monogamy can be as simple as raising off-spring together, and then finding a new partner once your off-spring is an adult. Other animals, very few, mate for the rest of their lives.

    There is very little evidence that demonstrates that we as animals are built to mate with one single individual for the rest of our lives. You could argue to raise one off-spring, but not to just have one life-partner.

    Either way, now we are way off topic, but I had to include this last bit because this is a topic that I think is important to discuss.