Hi My name is Maddie. I've recently denounced Sunni Islam last year, and embraced Quranist Islam (Quran Only, no Oral Tradition), and it has come to my attention that the kingdom of Lot story may not be what I thought it was..as per this playlist: Homosexuality in the Quran - YouTube Anyway...back to the point. So given that interpretation of Lot's story in the Quran, it really got me thinking about sexual orientation in general. Which I find funny that I never gave homosexuality/LGBT very much thought, even though I can remember being attracted to girls growing up and still am (I'm bisexual or bi-curious). What I'm trying to say is, I did not want to judge anyone without hearing both sides, just like I wouldn't someone to judge me being a Quranist (a minority which is most often persecuted in the Arab World) based on outside sources. I'm asking all you lovely people and creations of God , to help me understand LGBT on a scientific and intellectual level by pointing me in the direction of some Studies (Pro LGBT), Arguements/Debates or any material possible. I'm curious as to what Pro LGBT studies, documents, debates have to say about this lifestyle/orientation in terms of whether it's natural, a 'disease', genetic, it's history, impacts (?) on society..etc. I just want you to convert me!! But please know I come here with no prejudice at all whatsoever and I respect all your orientations, I just thought it'd be a good idea to come to you for information , rather than anti-LGBT biased sources that are usually connected with churches or other religious organizations and are not objective. Help me get rid of the ingrained traditionalist mindset I grew up with about LBGT. I would really appreciate it! <3 Maddie
https://www.google.com/#bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=f753e8c5b2b4ef91&psj=1&q=Studies+is+LGBT+normal https://www.google.com/#bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=f753e8c5b2b4ef91&psj=1&q=Is+Being+gay+a+choice? https://www.google.com/#bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=f753e8c5b2b4ef91&psj=1&q=LGBT+history If that is what you are looking for Google and many other search engines exist that will point you on the way. Its kinda pointless to actually ask us to do this leg work for you. Half the process of this education is actually doing the leg work. I know its a pain, but there is good deal you can learn from the process alone. Back in my youth, it was even harder to find reliable, good resources of 'factual' data and the full debates - we didn't have the internet and Google to look stuff up - we had to rely on the reference desk at the local Library, or do all the leg work and search the stacks ourselves. Now if you want us to share our own stories, our personal views, our own personal experiences in these matters then you should really ask us that. I think that we can provide for you rather well. I think you might be interested to know that in churches/organized religions, the debate wages warmly. I do not know in the Islam community how that is fairing, but I do know that for Christianity scripture is being debated right now as to what it really means. The story of Johnathan and David and Ruth and Naomi - are both two hotly contested stories which one half says suggested these people were gay, the other deny it flat out. So don't fully throw out those places you feel may be all about Anti-LGBT sentiments... Like I learned a lot about Christianity from Atheists and their point of view - While one wouldn't think that an atheist would be a spiritual guide, many of them do actually know the subject a lot better and through their experiences, their 'point of view' it helped me to get a better grasp of my own faith. I know its ironic, one would think that I would go to other Christians to learn about Christianity - but nope, the atheists appear to have better wells of understanding and research.
Well, that's quite a request. Haha, I think it's great that you want to hear both sides, but I'm a bit confused about what you want to find here? Are you looking for links to science research, or personal experience with lgbt matters, or did I just totally misunderstand your post?
Hello, and thank you for those links! I appreciate it . I'm sorry, I didn't mean I want anyone to do the work for me . But you see, my trouble is, I've tried searching for these sources but almost ALWAYS come up with some kind of religious or bible-thumping biased argument/study/presentation. Therefore I thought it would be best to go to the 'experts' on this topic, meaning you . Because for example I have a Sunni friend who is on my case all the time because of my Quranism, because she only looked at it through the ostracizing lens of Sunnism. And she can get lost in all the anti/pro information out there. But if she came to me, I would know first-thing about all the Quranic arguments and evidence to provide to her about my spirtuality, because I have debates with people all the time about my beliefs! (As do most of you do, as well about your sexual orientation, I'd imagine!) Do you see why I posted here? And yes personal input would be greatly appreciated as well! Forgive me if my post was not entirely clear, I was a bit nervous, being new here n all .
Hi there Ok, I guess what might make more sense is : What are the myth-busting materials/sources you use in order to defend your sexual orientation to bickering, judgemental straight people? THAT's what I'm looking for! I'm sure you get all kinds of accusations/claims such as : LGBT is unnatural, a disease, immoral, sinful..etc. If LGBT were natural, then why can't homosexuals procreate? blah blah blah Plus I'm trying to open up the mind of my husband, who is downright against LBGT and think it's disgusting and unnatural, without any bases for his opinion. I hope I'm not being annoying . ---------- Post added 12th Aug 2013 at 10:55 AM ---------- woe to me, I just realized those links were google search links lol. I just worry about falling into the 'wrong' hands on this topic while googling. That's why I thought maybe the LGBT community such as this one, would know pro-LGBT sites with the information I need. Like for example, for Quranism (sorry its the only parable I can think of!), I could easily point curious ones towards sites like The Quran and its Message, free-minds.org, quranicpath.com, quran-islam.org, quranists.net ...etc , which would provide the arguements needed for someone who is curious why Quranists believe what they believe.
Most of the people who say that being LGBT is a disease and unnatural are religious zealots, most of whom are Christian. Now why people ask pastors about scientific and psychological matters like that is beyond me. In my opinion, that's like going to the dentist because you have a broken leg.
if you're looking for why homosexual is actually natural, you can look up animals that have homosexual behaviors lol. Did they extinct? Nope! (Unless you're talking about something like meteor extinction, but then every species have equal chance with that.)
Well, my general opinions on this and any matter are that if an activity (ie consensual homosexual sex) hurts no one, then its perfectly fine to do it. Whether or not its natural (though I'm sure it is) is of little consequence.
Well there is evidence that suggests that non-standard sexual orientations such as homosexuality, bisexuality etc. are there in the brain from birth. It's neurological and is developed in the womb. Same thing goes for transgender people and non-binary genders, only for different sectors of the brain which dictate gender, not sexuality (which are not sexual orientations, but aspects of gender identity. Both are part of the LGBT+ spectrum, but they are not the same). Looking at this evidence from a religious standing point, it'd be an easy conclusion to draw (well, at least from my deist perspective) that as God created everyone, then these differing sexual orientations and gender identities were put there by God as just another form of diversity in human existence. We all have different skin tones, accents, voices, structures, hair colours, eye colours and such, it seems strange that thing like sexual orientation and gender identity would be left all the same. People are naturally diverse and if God created everyone, then he made people gay, bisexual, asexual, transgender, genderqueer and such on purpose. The thing to remember about scripture is that it was recorded by people. Human people with human agendas and flaws. The scriptures often represent the social mindset of the time and not necessarily the will of God. The idea of God as loving is generally accepted by all monotheistic religions. Looking at the evidence in the human body, we can tell that non-standard sexual orientations and gender identities are written into our brains intrinsically, so when it comes to the idea that God disapproves of non-standard sexual orientations and gender identities, we have to question why an almighty being who is loving would "curse" people with "sinful" traits that are part of who they are that they cannot change. There are only two possibilities that can be drawn from this situation: one, God is not loving or two, scripture is an untrustworthy source of understanding the will of God. Therefore, the ideas of homosexuality and friends being sinful does not hold up and even reverses the situation. To deny people with non-standard sexual orientations and gender identities the freedom to embrace these aspects of themselves would be to deny the will of God and could very easily be deemed "unnatural" or "sinful". That's all I can think to say on the matter and I believe it's a pretty solid argument personally.
I second Danica's point of view. Personal anecdote here; there's 4 gay people in my family (although I'm not 'out' yet) and my family is a staunch catholic one. I know your starting point is different but all religions have broadly the same concept of gay=bad. My uncle delayed being open about himself until after his parents died for fear of their religious stand-point. My aunt, (his sister) then went on to have 3 sons, 2 of which are gay. She was the most strictly religious of the family and she was blessed with three lovely boys. Would God have given her three sons, two gay, if it were unnatural? If so, then that's not a God I think anyone would like to be associated with because to me that's just mean. She's now having a crisis of faith because she loves her children and they are still the same people they always were. She's come to realise that the scriptures must be wrong because if her sons were 'sinful' or bad in any other way, then they wouldn't be such lovely genuine and caring people. Long story short, she's realised she's been fed a load of lies her whole life and is starting over with a very different, first-hand perspective.
The Quranist school seems to be very intellectual and not as organized as the other sects, at least from what little I've learned about the various sects in Islam. So, there are probably multiple online sources for you to find Quranist theology and hermeneutics. But, I think the most universal reasoning for why homosexuality is not bad is because biology has shown pretty clearly sexual orientation for most people is established very early in childhood. In addition, it has been observed both closely related animals like primates but even distant animals like birds. Finally, the frequency of homosexuality in humans is much greater than what would be expected if it was a totally negative influence like having a congenital physical disability. So, there must be some positive or neutral aspect of being homosexual to keep it remaining prevalent. For people who are believers, this takes the form of "Why would God make so many people who are intrinsically driven toward 'sin'?".
Hello! I appreciate that you came here with an open mind. As to the topic at hand, I also agree with everything Danica has said. Being LGBT is not a choice (who would choose to go through a lot of the pain associated with this?). I have known I am gay for as long as I can remember. People are born gay/lesbian, bisexual and transgender. G-d makes people just the way they are for a reason. Why would G-d make someone only to banish them to hell? Makes no sense to me. As for it being natural, homosexuality occurs in the animal kingdom as well. As for the argument of "homosexuals cannot reproduce", well, I would tell those folks to watch a movie called "The Happening". It has nothing to do with the LGBT community, but rather how nature deals with human overpopulation. Of course, it is a fictional film. But it really gets you thinking, as we are at a point where soon, there will not be enough resources to sustain the human population. Perhaps this is nature's way of cutting back no the numbers of the human race. Nature has other ways too, just look at natural disasters, which occur every year and kill many. It is sad, but I think that is the truth. Sorry if this did not make much sense, but I do hope it helped.
