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Wise Message On Change

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by NEWFrontiers22, Sep 3, 2013.

  1. NEWFrontiers22

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    I was watching the world news, and I found this video about a Saudi Women named Haifaa al-Mansour. I personally think her mgs equality and change related to sexism is brilliant. I think the issues she brings up can even be applied to our own LGBT struggles, both internal and external.


    BBC News - Haifaa al-Mansour: Saudi Arabia becoming more tolerant
     
  2. Ridiculous

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    Sorry, don't agree.

    The only reason change happens gradually is because people are fighting strongly for their rights.

    Gradual change isn't the goal, it's just a reality of how things happen. And gradual change only happens because people fight strongly for their rights. If we take her advice and instead treat slow change as the goal, fight meekly, and try to accommodate and 'respect' those who want to keep us and other groups as second class citizens, we aren't going to get any change at all.

    Fighting for anything other than the ideal is to settle for inequality.
     
  3. NEWFrontiers22

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    Of course, I agree with you, but I meant social change, not laws, but changing people minds through visibly and presence in the mainstream world as well as everyday life. By the way, I think she is fighting for women's rights, elsewise she would not be on BBC being interviewed on it.
     
  4. Argentwing

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    Rapid change would be ideal, but people will only accept small changes at a slow pace. It is wise of her to realize that there is a perfect balance between progress and peace, but she is aiming a little low.
     
  5. Djinn

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    She understands the condition of her home country better than any of us. What we consider to be baby steps here may be huge leaps forward over there. I think her opinions are born from that background of reasoning, as she can ask herself, "Would my family, friends, and community be okay with this change?"
     
  6. Ridiculous

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    Standards of human rights shouldn't differ between countries. Just because things are exceptionally bad in Saudi Arabia doesn't mean they should only fight for it to be slightly better, or shouldn't fight for the same standards that are in place elsewhere in the world. The reason things haven't progressed in that region is because they are too concerned with not 'offending' the people that are causing the problem.

    If your rights movement is mostly concerned with being acceptable in the eyes of your oppressors... well, what's the point? You're going to achieve nothing. It precludes any possible advancement.

    edit: I do understand exactly what she is saying, by the way; she's just framed it in a way that will either do nothing or discourage people to fight for our rights. Not what we need at all.
     
    #6 Ridiculous, Sep 7, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2013
  7. NEWFrontiers22

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    That may be, but you cannot force change on people, when in the long history of the human race has that ever worked? We in the LGBT community know this even more, than most. Ideally human rights should be the same everywhere, but that's just an "Ideal". We should not Force our beliefs or lifestyle down on others anymore they should force there own on us. Of course people deserve the right to say, live their lives without being verbally, physically, or emotionally abused. However you should consider your surroundings before venturing into a place where that might happen. Would anyone expect a zebra to walk through a lion’s territory and not escape notice, possibly be eaten? Rapid change overnight is fantastic for those it benefits, for those it does not; it only breeds shock, fear, resentment and anger, all of which will foster extremism. Force never works, period. "Written laws are like spider's webs; they will catch, it is true, the weak and the poor, but would be torn in pieces by the rich and powerful."
     
  8. Ridiculous

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    Which is (almost) all completely true and as I said in my first post gradual change is all that is every going to happen, but the only reason gradual change happens is because people fight for more than gradual change. If you fight for gradual change (as she seems to be advocating) you will get no change at all. The rapidity of progress is going to be the midpoint between the oppressors efforts and the activists efforts.

    Just because someone believes something doesn't mean it has to be respected, and not all beliefs are equally as valid as each other. Some are just simply wrong and pretending we have to coexist with them is silly.
     
  9. NEWFrontiers22

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    Our "oppressors" already think like this, how is imitating them going get us anywhere? The change you’re advocating seems kind of totalitarian to me, we share this earth with a great many different species and human groups, like it or not we have to live together on this earth that has a finite amount of space. Wrong or Right is a relative anyway, what it comes down to is who has the power. That's all it has ever been and will always be. I want change as badly as you anyone who is LGBT does, but at what cost? I don't want become the very thing I fighting against (tyranny, oppression, autocratic behavior).
     
  10. Ridiculous

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    I'm not advocating for any kind of activism other than what is currently employed in Western countries.

    The rights campaigns that are undergoing in Saudi Arabia and other countries in that region are far too meek and mild to do anything - this is why barely anything has been achieved there. Her saying that slow change is the goal is only going to encourage meek and mild campaigns.
     
  11. Aussie792

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    Anyone saying it "just needs more time" or "respect their culture" is really not helping. Taking time means never getting anything done, and respecting a barbaric culture is (apart from having a subtle racism that they're incapable of being civil) also legitimising their actions.

    We can't say to them that they must be patient when they're at the same level we were at one-and-a-half centuries ago.
     
  12. Steve712

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    I don't think that what Ridiculous has been saying is totalitarian. He's simply denying that relativism is capable of making progress, and I think it's a very sensible view. Certain views are more rational than others (in many case there are ways of measuring this mathematically via game theory and probability theory for example). If we adopt an axiom to the effect that arbitrary suffering is undesirable, then it follows that some form of egalitarianism (at the very least in rights) should be implemented, and those who think otherwise are acting according to conceptions of justice that it would not be rational to adopt. Even if it's tempting to say that everyone's preference should be absolutely respected, this is not practical and leads to a huge, gigantic, putrid, awful mess (which is really bad).
     
  13. NEWFrontiers22

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    "when they're at the same level we were at one-and-a-half centuries ago"

    So let them get there on their own, I agree that rapid change and more assertive activism would indeed help, but think about that for sec, that's what Egypt did, that's what Syria tried to do, and look what happened they were either stonewalled(Egypt) or brutally put down(Syria). Doing what we do in the west there is dangerous, not just for the activist but for the people as whole, who have to be taken into consideration.
     
  14. Aussie792

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    What makes them so different that we can't advocate rights as we do in our own cultural spheres? Saying that we have to leave them to do it themselves means that we have to allow generations of women and other oppressed groups be treated in disgusting ways.

    Turkey was once a ridiculously conservative place, but they changed very quickly from Islamic monarchy to a secular republic after unrest similar to the unrest that has been in the Arab world for decades.
     
  15. Steve712

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    Revolutionary activism like that is dangerous anywhere, including here, but it's also true that because they don't have social institutions to work with, activism of the sort we do here is a lot harder over there. All the more reason they should push forward, though; it does no good to concede that the irrational position of those in power and those in the majority is valid just because it's a belief.