Perception of own intelligence vs. modesty

This is a really interesting one!

I agree with you on the assumption that if lots of people are against you, you're intelligent. If you were to apply that, then creationists and the WBC would be genii . Just because you have lots of opponents is no basis to gauge your intelligence, as you might just be wrong or have radical views. Having said that, if you're visionary, then perhaps...

I'm of the school that intelligence comes in many different forms. I'm like you in that I've been put in the High Achievers programme, and got great grades, but I still don't think that's a strong case to claim I'm objectively smarter than everyone else. Because at the end of the day, what do they actually mean? They show I have a good memory and can articulate myself when needed, but imo they don't reflect much problem-solving, creative thinking, artistic thinking, common sense etc.

When you say you're surprised at people's capabilities, I think you can be with anyone if you get to know them. There are some who never got on with school or "traditional" forms of intelligence, yet excel in business. Others who are like walking encyclopaedias, but can barely even plan a day out or socialise.

What I'm saying is, yeah, there are lots of different types of intelligence. I'm okay with saying I'm intelligent when it comes to memory and writing, since my good grades and my general knowledge in conversations show that, but I wouldn't venture so far as to say I'm, say, a problem solver. I don't know.

Overall, I don't mind saying I'm intelligent in some aspects, but I readily accept that in some others I am lacking, and others excel much more at them. When people make the claim "I'm smart" I don't think they really think about the different facets of what it is to be intelligent (for there are many), because for me it's more nuanced than "smart or dumb". There are different forms that are very hard to measure, and no-one (okay, VERY few) can be all at once, which is why we should all have intellectual respect for each other and recognise we're not clever at everything.

 

How i settle it is by surrounding myself with people of similar preferences, mental ability, sense of humor etc, and ignoring pretty much everyone else. Of course, that's easier said than done when they are voting against our basic rights, and are responsible for the completely broken political system - what Toqcueville knew would become a race to mediocrity -, but i sure try to avoid them. Thinking on the unwashed masses for too long is just depressing.

 

Heh heh, thanks

I've thought before about how people's views on intelligence itself might indicate intelligence. I think there is something to that, but I would hesitate to say the people with the "black-and-white" view of intelligence are necessarily dumb. I think to an extent that view of intelligence is another thing we're introduced to by society, so many people have that conception just because they're given it and they haven't been exposed to other ideas about the nature of intelligence. It's like people who are naturally smart who haven't received an education. Also, different people attribute different values to intelligence- I suppose my view of it is quite broad, but others will always view it differently; that doesn't make them less open-minded or intelligent, just means they have a different take on it. For example a critical thinker who is clearly capable of arguing and having intelligent discussions but views logic and pattern-seeking as the dominant/ most important intelligence trait hence thinks intelligence should be based on that, as it mainly is now in IQ tests.

Not sure how clear that was (my train of thought was on bendy tracks for some of that ), but yeah. Basically I just think complete, objective intelligence profile is (for now at least!) crazy hard to test out in any way.

 

Well, isn't intelligence relative? I'm only considered smart by some because I'm a science major and they're not prone to science/math, yet I feel very dumb next to my science major counterparts because I can barely get through chemistry and physics (biology major). And while my friend feels dumb next to me when she learns about my grades, I feel dumb next to her when she makes and remembers 1000000 social connections. If only self-esteem was easy to keep when confronted by people who are more skilled than you.

 

I can see your point about the critical thinkers. Some might hold that belief, but yes, they would accept it's just a belief and probably acknowledge there are other factors to measure which aren't easy to.

So I don't disagree with the test, obviously it's not a complete sketch of intelligence but it does seem like a good starting point for it. A good benchmark as you say. Either way, it'll be a long time before there's a major test that measures across all departments. If it ever arrives.

---------- Post added 16th Sep 2013 at 04:48 PM ----------

Self-esteem stuff sucks sometimes but I think it basically comes down to "you can't have everything", since the different styles of intelligence you see are diverse, it's easy to be really clever at something (like science) and be completely outstripped in something else, something you're perhaps weaker at. Like anything, really. It's kinda funny sometimes how many people want something someone else has got...

 

I often think really low of myself. I was put on gifted classes but always tried to think there was some reason behind it. I've always been told I was bright, but never do I really believe it. I try to brush it off

 

Well,I belive I am pretty inteligent,I scored 105 on an IQ test in English wich is not my native language so...
I also take the hardest courses in each subject
When a teacher asks questions prior of learning on something,I most likley will know the answer.

I group people in two
1-The YOLOers/SWAGers/Fanboys/Trenders/ wich are mostly not idiots,but ignorants...
2-The rest of the people who are like me

I do not see people as dumb or smart but as ignorant or not ignorant,because that is what matters.

 

By engaging them in conversations which I consider intellectually rewarding as equals (or as a Socratic teacher).

 

I'm not really sure if I've had any sort of self-esteem, intellectually or otherwise. I've been faced with condemnation by the blankets society has, but with individual people, I've gotten along with about 90% of who I've encountered. So that contradiction is always present, and is very unnerving. I even feel uneasy trying to deal with the idea of having any sort of self-esteem. It almost seems like arrogance to me, and the one thing besides being a hypocrite I never want to be is someone who's arrogant.

But I constantly question everything. I even question my questions. Is the sky blue? yes. How do I know? I can see the sky, and the color I see it being is blue.

One reason why I'm a huge fan of Neil Peart is that I seem to relate to him on so many levels. He wants to be a good drummer, so he studies the hell out of the instrument and masters it. I'm doing everything in my power to be a good drummer as well as a good editor. I always want my future work to be better than my past work. I hate it when I see something and I see that it's not up to par with what I could be doing. I'm also an extreme introvert when I'm working. I just spent about 3 hours working on a project that I still had to cut short because of a missing line, and the only person I talked to in that 3 hours was the garbage lady who came around, and I was still awkward around her. Trust me, in person, I'm NEVER like what I seem to be here on the internet. I can write an essay with ease, but I can't give a speech without making several fundamental flaws, even when I have the paper in front of me.

Have there been people I've been frustrated with because they can't seem to open up to the idea of there not being a god, or there being multiple universes, or even there being a good anime? Sure. And I've heard argument upon argument that I can debunk with pretty good ease, but that's all from experience, not at all out of a mindset of "I'm better than you". I've never liked that kind of mindset, and I see the many negative things it's produced in the real world. I've always been trying to change that.

Honestly, I think it's up to the people around me to decide whether I'm a good person or a bad person, or whether I'm modest, naive, arrogant, etc. It's not really my place to say things about myself except what I'm interested in and my gender, because only I ultimately know those kinds of things. Not trying to be arrogant, but it's simply a fact. I can't know someone else's true gender or whether or not they like Daft Punk unless they state so.

 

I know there are smarter people than me. The numbers bear that out and I've also had to work harder in school, starting in college, at least, than some of my peers who grasped some more difficult material more easily. However, my memory is pretty good. Most of my affirmation comes in that department.

I know that there are people who aren't as quick upstairs. Some of these people make the worst know-it-alls. When I have to deal with people like this who talk to you as if they are preaching or you are stupid, I sometimes call them on their bullshit because I don't suffer fools gladly. I don't think that's a good strategy, though. I think it is best to avoid and ignore these kinds of "troublemakers." Deep down, I think some are insecure and have to put on the know-it-all eyewash.

 

I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing.

The modern generations, and by that I include all that fall in the twentieth and twenty-first centuries, have grown an extreme desire to be extraordinary. It's simply not enough to be normal or average. If you aren't intelligent, you're talented. Should you not be either, you must be beautiful and established; and should none of those describe you, you must be worthless. I admit that is a harsh way of putting it, and I certainly do not share those sentiments, but that is a mindset that is true to our society. We all must find something exceptional about ourselves; something that sets us apart from all the rest.

Historically, this is a very new ideal in society. Not to long ago, towns and neighborhoods would rally behind their intelligent and skilled. Having a child score high in the esteemed, national examinations in China was something that would bring their entire neighboring-community pride. Getting their rising star athlete into professional sports was something complete Southern U.S towns would gather to achieve. Yet today, it is not enough. We all must find something to regard ourselves as astonishing. It seems as though it has become a necessity to maintain personal confidence and boost egos.

I also was put up on a pedestal when I was younger. I'm not saying that they were wrong in thinking that I was bright, I have a fair amount of faith in my intelligence; however, I find it quite unintelligent to view my, or any other's, ability to calculate equations, analyze literature or theory, and regurgitate the statements of textbooks to be something extraordinary. Its simply mechanical, and because of that, I have always had faith in the ability of others to do the same.

I am not special because I may be considered intelligent and neither is anyone else who may fall into that category. There is no doubt that, genetically, some of us might have an advantage in the speed at which we gather knowledge, but the fact still stands that we are all born with a clean slate. I do not regard myself as special because I recognize the understanding that any knowledge that I have gathered over the years is not our of reach to any of those around me.

Intelligence and knowledge are not acquired by some exclusive birthright, and I feel that the belief that it is, and some are therefore 'special', is where we face this issue. People use the frame of intelligence as a way to consider themselves above others. I find that those that speak the loudest of their 'gift' are the ones that seem to lack them the most. It seems to me that we would have many more erudites walking around if those who claimed to be of their kind spent half the time they squandered boasting about themselves on actually attempt to garner some reasonable knowledge.

And this concludes Gen's soapbox. "The More You Know "

 

The old "knowing what you dont know" is the best test, although not perfect. People who think theyre smart without actually being so, generally never admit fault. Being able to see when you are wrong and admit when someone is smarter.

Of course when it comes to individual arguments, application of pure logic crushes all illusions.

Unfortunately some people refuse to acknowledge their own failings...

 

There's a theory stating that there are multiple types of intelligence.

I'm smart with 2,4,5,7, and 8, and mediocre with the rest. According to this theory, intelligence is not something that can be simply measured. Of course, musical intelligence doesn't mean that a person is intellectually equal to somebody with a brilliant inter-personal intelligence.

I'm not sufficiently educated in the matter, but I believe it is far better than a simple IQ test. Intelligence isn't tangible enough to capture accurately with a test. And depending on the situation, one type is going to be more important than the others.

 

Can I just say - out of the innumerable sub-measures of intelligence possible - the one ability which I must rate you all so highly on, is your ability to contribute meaningfully and openly to fair and reasonable discourse.

By "you all" - I mean everyone in the EC community.

All the types of intelligence you excel in reflect in the posts you write, and for that reason I've definitely found myself spending a lot of time here reflecting in the shared knowledge and perspective everyone brings.

This forum gives me hope in an online world of trolls and spambots

Thanks guys (&&&)

 

When I was a really young child, just before I was able to attend school, I was able to read 2nd grade literature fluently and by the time I hit kindergarten I already knew basic math. Everyone had told me that I was one of the smartest kids in the family.. I took it for what it was, but around the time I was in Middle school I started to feel like people were leaning on me... Depending on me to pass and shunning me if I don't. I didn't like it, so I refuse to believe that I'm any more gifted than any normal person in my grade..

 

I'm with you on this one, I think one of the best indicators for intelligence is indeed intellectual honesty. Being able to say "Could I be wrong? Possibly." and "Is your argument better than mine? Yes it is, so I will accept it", are very honest qualities which show both intelligence and integrity. People who question their intelligence on a daily basis are able to think like this, and I do think everyone should take the time to look at where they might be wrong about something, as it would solve a lot of problems imo.

---------- Post added 17th Sep 2013 at 01:54 PM ----------

That's an interesting way to sum it up, I don't think I'd really considered it so far. I guess anyone can learn, the main difference is how readily they take on board new stuff. I'm sort of coming round to the idea that a big differentiator is how ready people are to accept they're wrong or might not be right and look again from another angle. In other words, how ignorant they are in their thought process!

@Gen - that was a really interesting post as well, with your observation on society's treatment of such things. I think it's mostly fair to say anyone can learn as well, you don't always need to have genetic advantage, just a way of thinking that permits you to see your weaknesses, respect others' strengths, see the bigger picture for a moment, and act accordingly. If people did that, they'd be able to advance their intelligence much more, instead of wasting time boasting about it!

This is a great thread, I'm finding it really quite fascinating reading everyone's takes on it and also the maturity of the discussion!