should we have a 'pride' or not?

[Hugo Boss]

I think it is a nice idea but serves only to separate us ... also the motto "we are gay and we are here to stay" serves only to cause divisions...

.. opinions? ...

[Lexington]

I used to think "gay pride" was sort of silly, too, until I gave it some more thought.

"Pride", you see, is the opposite of "shame".

Pride events aren't there to separate us from others, or to make us seem like we're better than everyone else. They're there to say (to steal a phrase) "We're here, we're queer, get used to it." For many many years, homosexuality was forced into the closet, and the closet nailed shut. Pride events are a way of saying, "No. Screw THAT. I'm gay, and I'm NOT ashamed to admit it to anyone."

Lex

[Wander]

I've never been into the whole pride deal. It's like being proud of a race, or nationality, or height or weight or anything else. It's not like I made "the right choice" and now I'm proud of it, I just happened to be born gay. I'm not ashamed of it or anything, but I don't usually take pride in something unless it was a personal accomplishment. Part of why I don't do the rainbows or parades.

Having pride in your sexuality is foolish, unless one happens to believe sexuality is so fluid that it can be changed consciously. In my opinion, a person's sexuality is inborn. Having pride in something that was simply handed to you when you began your existence is purblind; you achieved nothing by being a deviant sexuality to heterosexual. And vice versa for heterosexuals who are proud.

It's different to be satisfied with your sexuality, but actually being proud implies that you strived to accomplish your sexual orientation. Which no one (who is being true to themselves) does.

Pride parades can be fun, but I find people shoving their sexuality in my face with chants such as "We're here, we're queer, get used to it." nauseating.

[slcdeadhead]

I'm still up in the air about gay pride; ever since I started coming out, the feeling I got letting new people know that I was bi was great, I loved feeling different but accepted at the same time. I think the gay movement is still so young and pride parades are just one of the ways to let people know we're out there and want to be accepted the same as any person wants to be accepted. My focus, instead of gay pride, are those gay guys on TV that act like complete flamers. Don't get me wrong, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, I think it's great . . . I just think it makes it that much harder for those of us who like guys but act just like any guy next door to be accepted without prejudice. Good topic (hope I don't offend anyone, not my intention at all)!

[Trumpetplyer23]

I think its okay to say "hey, I'm gay and I'm not afraid to admit it", but when you turn that thought into "hey, I'm gay and I'm superior to straights, so they can go to hell", is when things turn ugly.

Pride is about being confident in yourself, and having high self-esteem. Its not about pushing other people in the dirt because they're different from you. If gay pride marches start turning into straight lynchings (not saying they will, just saying IF), are we really accomplishing anything for the human race in general? No, hatred still exists. I think if we're proud, than that's a good thing, but we shouldn't be proud to the point of prejudice and hatred.

[SlickyPants]

Pride isn't about being proud about being gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender or whatever. It commemorates the Stonewall riots, a milestone for GLBT rights.

If it wasn't for those people and others that lobbied for equality, who knows how bad we'd have it. I am thankful that I would be able to openly hold hands with my partner in a crowded public place and not have to worry about being arrested for public indecency. I am proud to celebrate Stonewall.

[Maddy]

My way of thinking about it is this: I'm not 'proud' of being gay because it's just the way I am, but I'm proud of the fact that I can accept it and be open about it.

[Lexington]

Old uncle Lex is going to give a lecture. So roll your eyes if you must, but heed well.

First off, check out this song.

+ YouTube Video

It was sung by the Tom Robinson Band on British television in 1978 (I think). Thirty years ago. What he's singing about wasn't ancient history or vague stories he heard about other people. He's singing about NOW. This is what it was like. For him and ALL homosexuals. Not in tiny towns and far off places. Everywhere. When he sings, "Molesters of children, corruptors of youth, it's there in the paper, it must be the truth", he's not talking about obscure fundamentalist news organizations - he's talking about ALL of them.

I have a live version of this song in which he prefaces it by saying, "This song is dedicated to the World Health Organization. It's a medical song, and it concerns a disease whose classifaction, according to the National Classification of Diseases, is 302.0." What do you think he's talking about there? AIDS, maybe? Some sort of sexually transmitted disease?

No. Disease 302.0, into the 1980s, was homosexuality. It was a classified disease. Not by some wacko right-wing fundamentalist group. By the World Health Organization.

Tom Robinson was a brave man. He was out front about his homosexuality at a time when nobody was. He went on television and sang this song. (Actually, his bandmates, who I believe were straight, may have been braver. ) Because it needed to be sung.

To many of you, especially the younger folks in larger, more liberal areas, homophobia is a concept. Homophobia is hearing the "that's so gay" from someone in school, or seeing someone on TV criticize homosexuality. To many of us, not that many years ago - and for a sad few, to this day - homophobia is a way of life. It was a fact. It was a given. Someone announcing their homosexuality was almost tantamount to announcing they'd murdered someone. It was to be hushed up, pushed aside, locked away.

When your friend says it's OK that you're gay, or thinks it's cool, it's because you're standing on the shoulders of giants. People didn't just suddenly decide "hey, gays are cool". People had to be brave enough to confront them. One homophobe at a time. From the Stonewall Riots, through the famous people who "came out" when such a move usually meant the end of your career. It's because of them that we can non-chalantly say, "Yeah, I'm gay", and that so many people say, "Oh, OK, cool."

THIS is the reason for Gay Pride. Some of us remember Gay Shame. It sucked. And it's our way of saying "Screw that. We're not doing that again."

Lex

[SlickyPants]

Brilliant post and thanks for the song, Lex.

I suppose I'm relatively young. I'm thankful to be born in the generation I was. Even though hearing all the nasty comments as I grew up was bad, I'm sure it was a far cry from what it was like a couple decades before my time and for that I am grateful to those that were out and proud in a time when that wasn't exactly a popular banner to stand under.

[Sam]

I have spent my whole life knowing that I was different and that I was "wrong" Everywhere I went I heard the same thing that gay people were going to hell. I don't believe that I'm better than straight people and I don't think a majority of other gay people do either. Over the past few years I have realized that I'm not wrong, that I'm not going to hell and that I am just the way I was meant to be.

I live in the bible belt and everyday I still have to hear that I'm a bad person. All I ask is for one day a year to be around others like me and feel accepted for who I am and until this world starts viewing us as equal and I won't have to have a break from my everyday life then I will continue to have that one day of feeling accepted.

I don't believe in pushing it on people but I'm beginning to think that is what's going to have to be done to make people stop ignoring the issue and give us the rights we deserve.

I will go to pride for the first time this year and I will have a few hours away from all the homophobia I have to experience everyday and I don't think its a bad thing to want that.

Sam

[Owen]

I have never been proud of the fact that I am gay; it is just part of who I am. What I am proud of is that fact that I am ok with it when the world tells me I shouldn't be. Once homophobia disappears and the world no longer hates us, gay pride will probably disappear as well.

[Beebo]

I think being proud of the fact that you are gay is a good thing. If you are not proud of being gay, then you are not proud of yourself. Because being gay is a part of you, unless I am wrong, and that means not being proud of it is not being proud of yourself. I mean... how can you embrace your sexuality if you are not proud of it? Gay pride is not a way to show society that gay people are even more deviant than they are perceived to be, it is a way to emerse ourselves in a community of people that have struggled with many of the same hardships and troubles as us. Embrace every part of yourself, be proud of who you are.

BTW, "we are gay and we are here to stay" is mostly addressing people who think we should/can change the way we are, as if it is some kind of lifestyle. Yes it might be corny and a bit ridiculous, but it is a way of expressing alot of suppressed emotions, things that you might never be able to express around your usual community.

[Jeimuzu]

We who dwell in the shadow come out of it in a BIG way.

In other words, it's natural. We've been suppressed for pretty much ever. It's our way of saying we're here and we're not leaving. As Mike says, it's a bit corny, but it gets the message across.

It's also a message of no compromise. A lot of homophobes say "Well, so long as you act straight, then it's okay." No. I'm not gonna ask them to act gay, why should I act straight?

Gay pride is the biggest declaration of I'll Do What I Want Because It's None Of Your Business that we've got.

I look at it as a celebration for the attainment of our rights and celebrating the greater amounts of acceptance we get in everyday life. Surely theres nothing wrong with that?

[Beebo]

Originally Posted by Ty

I look at it as a celebration for the attainment of our rights and celebrating the greater amounts of acceptance we get in everyday life. Surely theres nothing wrong with that?

well said. Cheers to that.

[Paul_UK]

Originally Posted by Lexington

Old uncle Lex is going to give a lecture. So roll your eyes if you must, but heed well.

First off, check out this song.



It was sung by the Tom Robinson Band on British television in 1978 (I think). Thirty years ago. What he's singing about wasn't ancient history or vague stories he heard about other people. He's singing about NOW. This is what it was like. For him and ALL homosexuals. Not in tiny towns and far off places. Everywhere. When he sings, "Molesters of children, corruptors of youth, it's there in the paper, it must be the truth", he's not talking about obscure fundamentalist news organizations - he's talking about ALL of them.

I have a live version of this song in which he prefaces it by saying, "This song is dedicated to the World Health Organization. It's a medical song, and it concerns a disease whose classifaction, according to the National Classification of Diseases, is 302.0." What do you think he's talking about there? AIDS, maybe? Some sort of sexually transmitted disease?

No. Disease 302.0, into the 1980s, was homosexuality. It was a classified disease. Not by some wacko right-wing fundamentalist group. By the World Health Organization.

Tom Robinson was a brave man. He was out front about his homosexuality at a time when nobody was. He went on television and sang this song. (Actually, his bandmates, who I believe were straight, may have been braver. ) Because it needed to be sung.

To many of you, especially the younger folks in larger, more liberal areas, homophobia is a concept. Homophobia is hearing the "that's so gay" from someone in school, or seeing someone on TV criticize homosexuality. To many of us, not that many years ago - and for a sad few, to this day - homophobia is a way of life. It was a fact. It was a given. Someone announcing their homosexuality was almost tantamount to announcing they'd murdered someone. It was to be hushed up, pushed aside, locked away.

When your friend says it's OK that you're gay, or thinks it's cool, it's because you're standing on the shoulders of giants. People didn't just suddenly decide "hey, gays are cool". People had to be brave enough to confront them. One homophobe at a time. From the Stonewall Riots, through the famous people who "came out" when such a move usually meant the end of your career. It's because of them that we can non-chalantly say, "Yeah, I'm gay", and that so many people say, "Oh, OK, cool."

THIS is the reason for Gay Pride. Some of us remember Gay Shame. It sucked. And it's our way of saying "Screw that. We're not doing that again."

Lex

Lex, thank you for posting that. In 1978 I was 14, around the age of many members here. That was the climate when I was struggling with my sexuality, and is partly why I remained in my closet until my mid 20s.

Back then the age of consent for gay sex in the UK was 21 with lots of restrictions, and anal sex was illegal. The newspapers could and did publish extremely homophobic remarks. Section 28 of the local government act made it illegal for schools to do anything that could suggest that homosexuality was normal or in any way acceptable.

This is why I and others of my generation say that it is easier for people today to come out than it was when we were teenagers. We never say "easy", just "easier".

A lot of gay people (stronger people than me hiding in my closet) fought and campaigned for equality. Now, 30 years later, we are much closer and homosexuality is more acceptable and generally recognised for what it is. It is those campaigners and protesters who, despite the oppression, stood up and showed that they were proud to be gay. Brave people like Tom Robinson in that video clip on national television daring to challenge the establishment.

We are not equal yet. There is still work to be done. So there is still a reason for gay pride marches. Plus we should celebrate how far we have come in a relatively short period of time, and recognise those who have helped us get where we are today.

[Hugo Boss]

Firstly, apologise for not responding ASAP;
OK - Having read the comments above, I appreciate the whole "proud" notion - but I think it does more damage than good. My grandparents watch it on TV and think that gay men 'prance' around in fairy costumes and they look at me in a ... it also sort of acts to separate people, like black and non-black.

But that is like most things in life a balance between what we want and what society wants/needs ...


[On a side note - who has been? - I am going to go to the one in Paris to see what that is like .. who am I going to bump into ]

[Hugo Boss]

Originally Posted by Paul_UK

Lex, thank you for posting that. In 1978 I was 14, around the age of many members here. That was the climate when I was struggling with my sexuality, and is partly why I remained in my closet until my mid 20s.

Back then the age of consent for gay sex in the UK was 21 with lots of restrictions, and anal sex was illegal. The newspapers could and did publish extremely homophobic remarks. Section 28 of the local government act made it illegal for schools to do anything that could suggest that homosexuality was normal or in any way acceptable.

This is why I and others of my generation say that it is easier for people today to come out than it was when we were teenagers. We never say "easy", just "easier".

A lot of gay people (stronger people than me hiding in my closet) fought and campaigned for equality. Now, 30 years later, we are much closer and homosexuality is more acceptable and generally recognised for what it is. It is those campaigners and protesters who, despite the oppression, stood up and showed that they were proud to be gay. Brave people like Tom Robinson in that video clip on national television daring to challenge the establishment.

We are not equal yet. There is still work to be done. So there is still a reason for gay pride marches. Plus we should celebrate how far we have come in a relatively short period of time, and recognise those who have helped us get where we are today.

I seem to recal a channel 4 documenatry on this ... a few months back

[Hugo Boss]

Originally Posted by Ty

I look at it as a celebration for the attainment of our rights and celebrating the greater amounts of acceptance we get in everyday life. Surely theres nothing wrong with that?

Really?
I don't see any "greater amounts of acceptance" ... it is a day people can express themselves (like the War On Terror protests) and then go back to our real lives.

For some people, who know nothing of the "gay world", have a look at gay pride and think that is how things are done! I think it can sometimes, be a little too much especially when they bring out penis shaped stuff, like balloons!

On the one hand, I get a massive laugh watching some of my family watching the TV and on another level it also creates an air which isn't real.