Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight men?

Re: Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight m

It doesn't really matter how hurt you feel. I'm sorry. Blaming men is relevant, because the majority (I'm not going to be lenient) of men are sexist. More women are hurt by sexism than feminism could ever do to men, because the only problem men have with feminism is that it doesn't cater to them in its entirety. Something not wholly based on men? The horror!

 

Re: Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight m

On the whole I would say gay men objectify women less than straight men. When feminists target men they are usually discounting gay men, and as such I've never been 'offended' by being wrongly accused.

However there are those awful gay guys that think that because they are gay they have carte blanche access to grope women, do stupid things like judge and give them unsolicited fashion advice, and basically just be overly familiar towards women solely because they aren't sexually compatible. It's a somewhat different kind of objectification, but it's still objectification and still terrible.

 

Re: Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight m

I've found that if you are in a socially dominant group (e.g. men) and you are truly an ally to a marginalized group of people, you won't be offended by generalized statements the people in that marginalized group make about your group. You'll be secure enough in knowing you're not perpetuating their oppression to know they don't apply to you, and you'll understand their struggle well enough to understand why they make those generalized statements and not fault them for it.

As for gay men objectifying women, they might not objectify them for the same reasons straight men do, but as Ridiculous said, they're liable to do it too. On top of that, I've know quite a few gay/bi men who held really disparaging opinions of women, probably because the fact that they didn't have to date them meant they never felt the need to examine those opinions. In fact, the most outwardly misogynistic men I've known have all been gay/bi men. Which is a shame, because after religion, the most prominent reason that homophobes hate us because they think we're feminine and they think femininity in men is bad. So by reinforcing misogynistic viewpoints, they're only perpetuating their own discrimination.

So no, being gay isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card for feminist examination of your viewpoints.

 

Re: Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight m

It's a different sort of objectification in a lot of cases, I think, coming from a place of ignorance and curiosity, since it seems a lot of younger gay men see women as a sort of mysterious "other". I do think a lot of gay men instead tend to throw women under the bus, since they have less reason to "care" than straight men; they don't "need" women so who needs them, basically.

Anyone born and raised in a male-dominated society is probably going to fight against sexism, even those we might think are more immune to those influences. I was surprised at first to see how much of it pervades lesbian and transmale communities, for example, but it just goes to show you how pervasive these effects are.

 

Re: Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight m

I'm sorta playing devil's advocate here, but Blurred Lines' lyrics are meant to be satire. Whether that's obvious enough or simply trying to brush off the controversy is a different matter.

 

Re: Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight m

About 20 years ago I used to go to a well known Anglo-Catholic church in London. Pretty much everyone there was gay. A few women dared to show their faces, but they were subjected to bitchy comments and general nastiness. They didn't belong. It was wrong and nasty, but gay men can be like that. We don't need women, and often we don't much like them. Gay men can be real women haters at times.

 

Re: Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight m

It's definitely a cop-out to try to brush off the controversy. As Wikipedia says, "Satire is a genre... in which vices, follies, abuses, and shortcomings are held up to ridicule, ideally with the intent of shaming individuals, corporations, and society itself, into improvement." This illustrates perfect why "Blurred Lines" is absolutely not satire: it's not holding Thicke's lack of respect for consent and women up to any criticism; it's just displaying how much of a perv he is and celebrating it. That is the very opposite of satire.

 

Re: Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight m

There are monsters out there, yes. Gay, straight, bi, whatever. But I usually end up getting offended at generalizations, period. This means any towards men, women, gays, heterosexuals, athiests, theists, whatever. Yes, they're based on general logic. But what you're still doing is effectively doing what the opponent is doing: Tabooing you because you fit a group with a list of cons. Both men and women can be sexist. Both men and women have been targets of sexism, whether we want to believe it or not. This video might be a bit off-topic, but it illustrates my point very well. I also suggest looking at the uploader's response to the first comment as well.


[youtube]vnPuOX6ZGsY[/youtube]

 

Re: Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight m

Why do women show so much skin and look like a cheap product in public? No wonder men are going to objectify women? Why do girls have that urge to show skin and dress so stupid? Girls please answer.

 

Re: Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight m

Sexism comes from all angles from society. Men are sexist and if women fireback with sexism as well, then two wrongs don't make a right at all..

 

Re: Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight m

^ (2 posts above mine) Comments like that are exactly what I'm talking about. But it's not just toward women, but men get that too. "You're not man enough" or "All men are selfish, perverted pedophiles that want nothing to do except what their penis tells them". Trust me, I've gotten it more times than I wish to count. Whenever I'm not getting out of bed because my body simply isn't ready for the day, all of a sudden, my penis comes into play when I'm supposedly masturbating because I'm a sexually a guy. When you do that, when you make comments like that, you're covering every single person you're doing that to. "Men are x" "Women are y" "Gays are z" Even some of the positive ones such as "Asians are smart" can be detrimental, because then you're being held to a potentially higher bar than you can possibly reach, and so now you're spending your entire life just trying to reach that bar.

 

Re: Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight m

This kind of judgmental moralistic elitism makes me sick. Women show skin because they want to. Men show just as much skin in public as women; think of all the guys who go shirtless in the summer. Whatever their reasons are for wanting to show their skin, it's not that unreasonable to think that women would want to show their skin for the same reasons. Do those men deserve to be objectified too? Women, as with all people, deserve basic human decency regardless of how much skin they show.

 

Re: Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight m

I don't care what minority you are whether your gay,black,muslim,female(which can be treated like a minority) or whatever. There no excuse for sterotyping or hating people because of who they are oppose to what they are. A feminists who hates men I can't take seriously because how can you ask people to not judge you on your sex when you judge people on their sex. Their are lots of feminist who I mostly agree with. But sometimes you get these feminist who blame their failures on men mistreating them because their a Women when in fact it's because their a bitch. Yea there a men out there who are sexist but it doesn't mean all men are and men often don't appreciate when feminists assume that all men are sexist.

 

Re: Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight m

I see girls that dress like they are going to a party when they go to school. Its their choise but I dont think its wise to dress like that if you dont want to be objectified. I mean how can you take seriously someone who shows their entire chest, belly or ass in public regardless its women or men? Think about it....

 

Re: Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight m

What does that mean objectified. So if some says I'm smart are they objectifiy me as a "smart object". If someone appreciates the female form I don't understand why people get offended. Although I agree mostly with what you say.

 

Re: Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight m

Sexism against men isn't a justification for being anti-feminist though (which he revokes on his first comment, yay!). Misandry doesn't arise out of feminism.

And is rant is ridiculous. I don't see how he could be so angry about that. Circumcision is unnecessary? Maybe. Circumcision happens because of hatred against men? Ha, no. I don't think those adverts really affect mens' lives either.

 

Re: Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight m

For the first question, my answer is no. Gay, and sometimes bi, men either treat other women as people before objects because their sexual attraction is not the dominant issue, might be indifferent to them (I know a few guys who live as if the world didn't contain women at all), and some dislike them altogether and avoid them (that one usually runs deeper). So, there's not much of a threat. Maybe that's why gay men and women make for easy friends, sometimes. However, I resent when this courtesy that's extended is reciprocated with their 2-level view of men: real men ... and gay guys I treat like my girlfriends. If I interact with a woman platonically, the rules are sort of evident: we retain conventional gender roles and a baseline of respect stays in place, or it's a no-go. Being nice and polite does not mean being weak. Get it?

 

Re: Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight m

Maybe we find it comfy.

Maybe we feel pretty in ourselves.

Maybe we have fun fussing over outfits with other girls.

Maybe we want to look attractive to people but those people aren't you.

Maybe we think we should be able to wear whatever we like without being treated horribly for it.

You do it by not thinking about sex all the time whilst talking with them. That's objectification: thinking that they do it so you can gawk, that they exist for your pleasure, and that they do not have the right to be considered otherwise except by them changing instead of you changing.

I define sexual objectification as gratuitous and irrelevant focus on, or use of people as, sexual things. A hot woman in a car ad is irrelevant to the car; it's objectifying the woman. Not taking a hot woman seriously is also objectification because it says the only thing that can be focused on when around a hot woman is her hot-woman-ness.

"Appreciating the female form" is fine in some contexts, where the female in question wants to be appreciated by you. However, a female might want to be appreciated by people other than you, and find it creepy if you compliment her in certain ways. Humans have different boundaries with different people. She may be fine with, say, a romantic partner calling her sexy, because she knows that they don't reduce her to nothing more than an object for their pleasure, but that assurance may not exist with other people.

 

Re: Gay men and feminism. Do gay men objectify women in the same manner as straight m

I would take offense/be upset if a woman told me I couldn't be her friend or comment on an issue etc on the basis that men are sexist. Particularly as I'm a feminist myself. I'd hope to be seen as an individual, rather than the devil incarnate. But that isn't what is being said. They're stating facts, namely the fact that men objectifying women is a problem. I'm hardly going to deny this. Yes, its unlikely that gay men would be doing this, but the statement isn't accusing all men of objectifying women, and there are many straight and bi men who don't as well.

You don't objectify women. In terms of things you can directly control, thats all that matters.

That was so offensive I thought it was a joke until others started taking it seriously. I can't really add to the current condemnation of this, but I wanted to show my support.