How far should we go helping suicidal people?

I definitely support people's right to end their own life when they have an utterly debilitating physical illness with no cure but I work in mental health and I have met so many young people who desperately wanted to end their own lives, often with extremely good reason such as having experienced abuse all of their lives but somehow, in ways that often seem unbelievable, they have gone on to find happiness and hope in their lives and I always think how awful it would be if they had been successful in ending their lives and robbing themselves of that happiness because things seemed entirely hopeless at that time.

 

Ditto :icon_bigg :eusa_clap

 

I think suicide is always ethically wrong. No one is an island. All the people around someone who commits suicide will blame themselves to some degree, and may take their own lives as well. One suicide always hurts dozens of people.

Also, any kind of depression, especially suicidal depression, can make people ignore anything good or worthwhile, which means that suicidal people are usually blind to the people that care about them. The emotions a suicidal person is feeling, when everything is a feedback loop that only lets the bad in, are incredibly powerful. The person considering suicide may feel suddenly lucid or rational, but they definitely are not.

It's very much like there are two people - the person as they are when they are in a better frame of mind, and the way they are when they are suicidal - and the person considering suicide is NOT in a position to give that kind of consent, any more than a drunk person could consent to sex. The sober person, who is also at risk of being killed, is a person with goals and dreams, who will probably be glad at some point that someone helped them go on living.

Last, what brought me closest, and what I've seen in other people, is feeling ashamed and worthless. Some people manage to convince themselves it's the right thing to do, or that other people will be better off. That's never true. But it's especially easy for us to feel that way about ourselves, because so many people give us frankly a bunch of shit we don't deserve. And some of the people making us feel that way, view it as a good thing when one of us gets rid of ourselves. And so they turn the volume up, and make other people even more miserable.

This is of course different from how I feel about euthanasia.

 

I've always been of the opinion that the only people who have the right to decide whether someone should live or die, are the individuals themselves.
It's one of the reasons I'm opposed to the death penalty.

Before people start mentioning abortion. Foetuses aren't individuals, they have no self-awareness whatsoever.

The logical consequence of my position is that people have the right to end their own life. I would hope they'd seriously consider it, but ultimately it's their live, their choice, not mine.

I find it especially horrible that people, for example seniors, who are suffering without hope of recovery, aren't allowed to opt out.

 

as much as people have the right to take their own lives, we as friends and family have the right to save your life.

It is not selfish to want someone to live, it's love that wants someone to live.

 

It's also love to respect the wishes and feelings of the one's you love.
If a person truly feels they want to stop living, shouldn't you respect that?

 

:***: Perhaps, but being one of those fetus once, whose mother considered aborting, I can say firmly that fetuses and young babies aren't as dumb and unfeeling as you seem to think. I have memories(with feeling's attached) going back as far as 2, and unconscious unresolved negative feeling's before that, thought I did not understand it at the time(still don't entirely). Consider it like talking to plants, if you lay on enough hate and neglect on them, they will eventually whither and die. Besides, how would you define a "individual" exactly? It's all relative and subjective anyway.

---------- Post added 27th Sep 2013 at 12:56 AM ----------

Which is selfish, right up there with wanting someone to die. It's about you and how it affects you, not about them, and how they are feeling.

 

If someone slipped a pill into a drink that made you want to kill yourself for half an hour, would it be right of me to respect your wishes during that half an hour? Or should I try to get you to wait until the pill's worn off?

That's only slightly more dramatic than what actually happens with people. Shame is an incredibly powerful emotion.

The $10 word here is "agency", and it means your ability to make rational decisions. A lot of people just plain don't always have that.

Of course it's impossible to tell from the outside whether or not someone's thinking clearly. There's a danger going too far the other way. There's more of society than there are of you and it's very easy for a mob of people to decide that anything they don't like is "irrational".

But in the case of someone having a hard time emotionally, I think it would be very wrong to let them die, and I think people are well within their rights to prevent someone from killing themselves in that situation.

 

Respect? Yes
Accept? NEVER

 

No it's irresponsible to let someone end there own life. If my best calls me and tells that they're thinking about killing themselves, I'm not going to sit there and say "Well I respect your wishes and feelings, so it's your choice." No, I'm going to try my best to stop them from doing it. Most suicidal people are not in the best state of mind--read cassie's post, her explanation is better than anything I could write.

I'm sorry, some of the posts in this thread really worry me...

 

Yes, if that is there wish, and they are convinced that there are no other options, then you must honor it(If indeed you truly love and respect them as another sovereign individual). But, you don't have to take part in it either. (P.S. I thought I should add that I was referring to "suicide" in cases of the most extreme, not teenage angst or having a identity crisis(or) midlife crisis)

 

I did not mention young babies and fetuses simply aren't self-aware.

Exactly, 2 years after you were born. I was talking about abortion and fetuses, not killing toddlers.

If you can cite me a single current peer-reviewed study that shows that fetuses, in the abortion term, are self-concious/aware, I will reconsider my position.
Until then no ammount of appeals to emotion or hindsight argumentation is going to work.

Doesn't change thte fact fetuses are not self-aware.
Also the thing with talking to plants is purely about sound. If you say the most vile and hateful things to them in a soft and soothing voice, they won't die.

I already did: a self-aware/concious human.
Blindly declaring it subjective won't make it so, especially since I provided a definition.

Now you might be happy that you weren't aborted, other people might not.
Thing is, it is easy to argue from hindsight. It could just as well have been that you would have a had an abysmal live and wished you'd never been born. Until you're acutally born and lived some, you won't know that.

---------- Post added 27th Sep 2013 at 10:08 AM ----------

Why?
If it's what they want, especially if they're suffering and there's no hope for improvement?

You're conflating discussing the issue with stopping them at all costs.
Sure you can talk to the person and try and see if it's truly the right choice.
But like I said, some people, like for example certain seniors, suffer immensly from age related pains, without no hope for recovery. Why shouldn't they be allowed to end their suffering?
If you've ever talked to someone who was in such a position or who took care of such a person, you might not be black and white about this.

---------- Post added 27th Sep 2013 at 10:10 AM ----------

Where have I said that you should blindly help people kill yourself?
I expressly mentioned that people should seriously consider the choice and in a later post added that, of course, it's good to discuss it.
Never have I argued that you should blindly help others kill themselves.
It would really help this forum in general if people read other people's posts closely and ask questions. Instead of assuming black and white extremes and straw-men.

---------- Post added 27th Sep 2013 at 10:11 AM ----------

Where have I argued that people are obligated to actively assist others in suicide?

 

I think people should have the right to do it themselves and suicide attempt in the UK and Ireland at least isn't a criminal offense.

However it is a decision that is usually taken by someone who is not fit to make such a decision, suicide in most cases is the result of a mental illness, I tried when I was depressed I didn't want to live with myself anymore, I just failed to see a point in continuing this life, I am gay and didn't want to be, I wanted kids but I assumed it was impossible, I assumed that since I was gay I would never find someone, and that somebody would never fall in love with me. I was wrong in so many ways, its not a rational decision that someone who isn't suffering from a mental illness would make. (The minority of suicides are people who are terminally ill or want to escape something without facing judgement etc. )

I know if I killed myself I would have probably destroyed my family, I am an only kid I can't even begin to imagine what it would do to my parents and my grandparents if I actually did it. I know for a suicidal person (I didn't at the time) other people aren't considered, you assume that nobody cares for you or anything. I actually remember my best friend (even though I didn't want to accept that) at the time is a medical student so he is trained to look for signs of suicidal people, and he picked right up on me, the stuff I had on facebook, the stuff I was saying etc.; I just remember him convincing me to stay over at his place, and then confronted me over it . It sounds weird but I remember him saying "Have you ever thought about what you will do to you parents, the people who care for you, they will be devastated, I will be devastated you are one of my best friends are you expecting us to forget about you, what we did together, the places we went, the antics from VIth form? "

That made me go and get help, been into therapy and I can't see myself returning there anytime soon.

Sorry off on a tangent but I am just saying that suicide isn't normally a decsion that is made my people who are rational.

Its a very very Irrational decision

 

While this is true, it's sadly also used to silence any discussion of legal euthanasia.

 

Who care's if they are or aren't they have the potential to become it, I don't give flying :***: what my mother or father wanted both of them are selfish as hell. I want to live and at least try to survive and desire that right for every other potential person out there. Life's been hard, I won't deny that, but at least I was given a chance. One chance that's all I'm trying advocate, what's wrong with that? If you don't desire a baby, use birth control, by all means! :tantrum:

 

I support voluntary euthanasia for the terminally ill. I don't support suicide being supported. When someone is suicidal, they need help, not encouragement. That said, there mustn't be a stigma about suicide.

 

I said that Terminal Ill people are making different decisions, I am just saything when me, then a healthy 21 year old, with a decent family, a decent career etc. it was an irrational decision based on some internal homophobia I picked up at some point.

In the instance of having a terminal illness I can see it as somewhat rational to save yourself from a potentially painful and slow end so I can understand why someone would choose that.

Personally if I was in that situation I wouldn't, I would rather spend as much time as I can with the people I love.

 

[/QUOTE]Yes, if that is there wish, and they are convinced that there are no other options, then you must honor it(If indeed you truly love and respect them as another sovereign individual). But, you don't have to take part in it either. (P.S. I thought I should add that I was referring to "suicide" in cases of the most extreme, not teenage angst or having a identity crisis(or) midlife crisis)[/QUOTE]
Where have I argued that people are obligated to actively assist others in suicide?[/QUOTE]

That's you opinion, but mine is that it is a very selfish act to take one's life, but it is your right, but making it into public or personal act, is just plain rude deeply disrespectful of the other persons or people's feeling.