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Guns?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by gibson234, Oct 26, 2013.

  1. gibson234

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    This came up in another thread, so I decided to move that argument here.

    Guns kill. Killing is illegal. Therefore guns should be illegal or at least strongly controlled.

    Thats the basics of what I believe what about you guys?
    ( I suspect that most the americas here will strongly disagree with me but that perhaps explains why I live in a sane country and they do not.)
     
  2. timo

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    I think it's incredibly ridiculous and unnecessary to own a gun and I'm glad I live in a country where owning one is illegal.
     
  3. HuskyPup

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    I think the need to own and carry about a gun everywhere points to a strange paranoia/insecurity, and strikes me as some kind of maladaptive, over-reaction. I'm glad guns are tightly controlled in this part of the US.
     
  4. Saturn7

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    Thank you, Gibson. I expect Lieutenant Commander Data will join us too, at least I hope so.

    Like you, I'm actually from the UK. I can think of no reason to let anyone have guns, really. There are so many hate groups out there. Without doubt the distinct minority, but in my mind, giving these freaks guns enables them to make a difference through ultimate violence - that is the taking of life. No one should have the potential of life and death under their control. Especially politically charged groups like lobbies, terror groups and governments.

    From the little I know of America's history and founding, guns are meant for self defence more than anything. The founding fathers respected freedom over everything else. To the point that the government said to them - 'You can have guns. If we impose upon your freedom, then you protect it.'

    Although different to our perspective, I feel like there's a certain amount of nobility in that. You have to have a civilized society to give them weapons and trust that they will not be abused.

    The problem with this, in my opinion, comes from the degradation of American society - both socially and also with their government.

    As their government spends more and more on foreign investments it spends much less time on real education, and focuses on controlling information. The results have been well documented. Crime has sky rocketed, the poverty gap grows daily. Ignorance is encouraged. Let us not forget that when an Indian lass won Miss America 2014, many Americans thought that Al-Qaeda had won.
    This is, in my mind, a result of not only extremely poor education, but also the fact that for the past 10 years, the American populace have been brainwashed to unconditionally hate Muslims and Arabs. You can go to sites like the New York Times and Washington Post. Go to the comments section and see for yourself. You'll find popular figures like Bill Maher openly calling for American blood to be spilled for Israel, yet you'll never ever find anyone questioning Israel's documented gross misconducts against human rights taken seriously.

    The Patriot Act following the 9/11 tragedy was a colossal sin against the freedom of the American people. It was a 10,000 word document allegedly written in the 11 days of mourning following the tragedy. But, their law and social fabric has changed so much, that they did not use their guns to defend their own freedom - against their own government. There is no way to describe the mindset of the American people other than 'terrorized'. But it wasn't Muslims doing it. The government would regularly tell people about hoax terror attacks. Totally isolated towns of no political/economic relevance would live in fear. Watching anyone they didn't recognise. Is this anyway to live? Is this anyway to treat your people?

    Media coverage of gun ownership and those who advocate guns is hardly positive. The world associates gun advocates as tabacco chewing red necks - Deliverance style. SUWEEEEEE!

    To be fair, I think these points indicate the fact that perhaps America should review the second amendment. It's a fallacy now. The whole point exists so that Americans could protect themselves against subjugation and remain a free people.
    But in reality, the subjugation has occurred through socioeconomic and political means. Americans are far from free - and it really hurts to know that.

    Now guns seems like a hollow statement. Desperately clinging on to a symbol which they know is right and in accordance with the founding of their country - yet with no realistic way to actually use them in the present day.

    It's a tough call to make. It represents their ultimate method of protecting their freedom, but there's no realistic way to use them without an absurd amount of bloodshed. Can you imagine what would happen if they did take up arms against their government?

    The bubbling tide of social nationalism that exist in America would really take advantage of it. You'd see open acts of ethnic cleansing with people justifying by saying they are protecting the sanctity of their white European heritage.

    So, although the sentiment is great, and self defence i something very important to me, I feel like the social and political fabric of America has changed to the point that they're anachronistic.

    Yet...by the same token, from what I have seen of the world, and studied in history, I have a sick feeling that it could be an anachronism that saves us from total destruction at the hands of a religion. The religion which worships humans and money.

    ---------- Post added 26th Oct 2013 at 02:01 PM ----------

    tl;dr

    guns are bad...mmkay? xD
     
  5. vyvance

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    I have no problem giving up mine if they ever do make it illegal here. Only gets used maybe once a year for skeet shooting anyway.

    Guns definitely need more restrictions at the very least.
     
  6. Jinkies

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    People might disagree with me, but I hate guns. They truly are unnecessary for survival with very few exceptions, and are only used for 2 purposes: Hunting and war. And since we're now at a point where you don't have to shoot a cow to make steak, that really leaves the only half-justification for guns, and that "justification" isn't something I'd wish on any planet, let alone an enemy planet.

    The reasons why I'm for gun laws is this: Guns exist. And because they exist, people will get them no matter whether or not they're legal. It's been like that almost since the dawn of man. Look at the "drug war" today. I'm sure half those cops have smoked at least a little bit of ganja, even when it was illegal. There are people out there who don't give a shit whether or not it's illegal. The fact that it's illegal has only made a couple obstacles for them, and they've certainly gotten around or over them. People also seem to like having enemies. I don't know why. I never wanted enemies. Alas, I do. And there are people out there who are mentally sick enough to perform mass homocides.

    There are also people in those neighborhoods that need money to eat for the week, whether it's through selling drugs or otherwise. And if they don't have the money they need to survive, then it just may look like natural selection is the case.

    But Ryu, there are people who kill with knives!

    Yes, but we need knives to cut our food. Try eating steak or certain vegetables without it cut. I'm sure you'll be spending all day trying to figure it out. So there are justifications to having knives in the first place.

    And the difference between guns and knives is simply that guns are easier. If your target is a good few meters away and you're not an expert at knife-throwing, guess what? Hey, you have a pistol in your hand! How easy! BAM! See? Wasn't that easier than flipping through a knife-throwing book and practicing perfect form? Yes, knife-throwing is more badass. But the majority of people will choose simplicity in tight situations.

    And the thing is, I don't see guns actually leaving any country, especially the US in the next 20-50 years. I could be wrong, but knowing how this country works and the mentality behind the general population, you'd be surprised with what people can get away with.

    And because I don't see guns leaving at least the US, I'm all for gun control. Not for the illegalization of it, because that would be completely pointless and wouldn't accomplish a thing except have on some pieces of paper "You can't have guns". The gun laws that Chicago is about to put in within the very near future are pretty much what I agree with. If you were in a mental hospital recently, it's probably best not to have that .50 cal you wanted JUST yet. If you're a criminal, you'd best put down that AK-47, much as you like the weight of steel in your hands. And I'm honestly for the general population having guns for their own protection. Especially minorities such as us, hispanic people, foreign people, etc. because there are crazies with guns that hate us. And they want to shoot us. And some of them WILL if they can. There really is no sugar-coating this because these are sadly facts of real life.

    If we have 1 crazy with a gun and 3 people who are willing to protect the crazy's target, the crazy is now more in jeopardy than the target.

    I wish I could say "Let's have no guns" Because frankly, that probably will never be. So if we can't eliminate all guns, then we might as well give everyone a fair chance.

    ---------- Post added 26th Oct 2013 at 06:15 AM ----------

    I have come up with an idea: Every gun must only be able to hold one round. For many cases, people have survived only one bullet instead of, say 5. That being said, before someone gets registered for their gun, they must pass a target test much like what cops have for firearm training. This way, those that aren't registered gun users but still get ahold of a gun only have ONE SHOT at killing their target, which is highly unlikely. So if someone feels that their life is in jeopardy or that they're being threatened, and they're a registered gun user, that means that they know what spots to hit to kill and which ones only to maim. And since they went through training, they're more likely to be able to hit their target and accomplish what they need to.
     
    #6 Jinkies, Oct 26, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
  7. Saturn7

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    There are still many people around the earth who hunt for food - including the united states. Not everyone is sanitised to the point that their meet comes in plastic packages. Not everyone is like you or has your lifestyle.

    That said, your final point really would mean that guns became 'tools' and not weapons.
    Having powerful, single shot rifles would automatically mean that their only realistic use is for hunting. I really liked your idea.

    The fact is that companies like H&K and the like specialize in creating weaponry which can kill as efficiently as possibly.

    Also, considering the prevalence of the arms industry...there's be a lot of unemployment and economic change.
     
  8. sam the man

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    Yeah, I saw that exchange between you and Data :grin:

    I think that a few of Data's points about self-protection were reasonable however I think that guns should still be strongly controlled. A law which permits you to use deadly force against any perception of threat is ambiguous at best and incredibly difficult to manage. I think that there should be an extreme amount of accountability for using lethal force against an attacker, and the person with the gun should be made to give full account as to why this was the last resort and why the behaviour of the attacker was dangerous enough to justify that response. Otherwise the law is easily warped and used for people's gains or to settle scores.

    In terms of guns in public places, I don’t agree. This is dangerous, as in public things can escalate and arguments in public can result from trivial things. I think guns in public should be banned, but that isn't to say all forms of self-defence e.g. personal tasers should be banned. But obviously lethal things such as guns should be banned in public, otherwise it's legal for pretty much anyone to walk around the street with a gun stashed away.

    I do at the moment agree with the right to have a gun on your private property, as any breach of that constitutes a direct threat to you and people should have the right to defend themselves on their property- but as before, I think there should always be clear definitions as to what constitutes threatening behaviour (rather than the law relying solely on your interpretation) and the evidence should always be examined as to whether shooting was an appropriate response. Also, lethal rounds need not be used- you could give people tranquiliser darts and they will be just as good if not better at neutralising the threat, without death.

    On principle I strongly oppose the idea of the legal right to bear automatic weapons or an excessive amount of ammunition/ explosives. It's a simple point: the argument to bear arms is the right to self defence, not to have the kind of gun which could blow away a dozen people in one pass. That is not self defence, it is far more than you need for self defence and so it should not be allowed. Limits to clip size and fire rate should definitely be enforced, and allowing automatic weapons to anyone apart from the army and armed police seems utterly stupid to me. Also, there does exist non-lethal rounds such as tranquiliser darts and rubber bullets. If guns are all about self-defence, well then why not make more use of rounds designed for self-defence? Guns don't have to kill if you don't use live rounds.

    So overall I believe that guns shouldn't be banned entirely (since they are in wide circulation anyway and there are some situations where you could need one) but strongly controlled and banned in public (alternative measures of self-defence like tasers should be allowed). I also think that using non-lethal rounds that do the job but do not kill should be encouraged. The point is making sure that guns are used for last resort self-defence and not offence, which is why I think people should never be allowed to just have any kind of gun anywhere they go. It’s obvious that correlates to more gun crime.
     
  9. Siarad

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    As I've said on a similar thread - most debates I can manage to comprehend both sides of the argument, even if I don't personally agree (or even if I vehemently disagree) with where someone is coming from. With this debate, however, I simply cannot comprehend support for guns. This is not to say that I cannot respect that people have different opinions to me on this topic but I cannot comprehend it.

    I am watching my way through The Walking Dead at the moment, so please forgive me for a slight zombie obsession currently but one of my favourite films is George A. Romero's Night of the Living Dead and I've always thought that the end is utterly brilliant.

    I don't know how to put spoilers on so please don't watch this clip or read any further if you haven't seen and want to see Night of the Living Dead all the way through...

    night of the living dead part 10-10 ending.mp4 - YouTube

    In my mind there are two ways of interpreting this final scene:

    Message A: Guns would be essential in a zombie apocalypse.

    Message B: People wielding guns are extremely liable to kill indiscriminately and frequently kill the wrong person/innocent bystanders as in the case of this poor chap who manages to survive the zombies but not the gun-happy rednecks who don't realise he's not a zombie.
     
  10. Jinkies

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    Look, I'm sorry if I offended you with that. I was simply speaking in broad terms about humanity in general. I'll admit I forgot that there are people who do that. And even with that, there's controversy. Some people say those people shouldn't be killing animals and they should be eating veggies only. But what I really meant there was that humanity in general isn't at the point where the only way to get food was either by hunting or gathering, and that we've come to a point where very little of that is needed. I wasn't trying to say "You must think like me or you're Un-American" or some bullshit like that.

    Honestly? I do like your idea of the hunting rifles. I think there could be a completely different and more efficient way to hunting, should that be the case.
     
    #10 Jinkies, Oct 26, 2013
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2013
  11. Saturn7

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    No. I should apologise. I use very terse language during such debates. I am sorry. You caused me no offence at all :slight_smile:

    You raised some really good points that got me thinking. I just always encourage people to think about the other side.

    This represents a problem in the UK. I was under the impression that alternatives could be found with crowd control rather than firearms. Razor wire, and, if you have a good noodle, fire and explosives.
     
  12. Siarad

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    #12 Siarad, Oct 26, 2013
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  13. Saturn7

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    You know, in one of the the first ever zombie film made Night of the Living Dead 1968, I believe the final survivor was shot because they thought he was a zombie.

    Although I do realise we're basing our opinions on works on fiction, I'm inclined to agree with you.
     
  14. Siarad

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    night of the living dead part 10-10 ending.mp4 - YouTube
    ^See above^

    On a technical note, if anyone could tell me how to put spoilers in I'd really appreciate it!
     
  15. Jinkies

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    Like almost anything else, you put "spoiler" with brackets around it, type outside of the last bracket, and then close it up with "/spoiler" with brackets.
     
  16. Saturn7

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    I fail on a multitude of levels...i thought you had linked something else.

    Apologies all xD
     
  17. Throughout the years, my views of guns have changed (I was against gun regulation).

    In the U.S, the right to own a gun is in our constitution (Second Amendment). Now, I feel that it's very unnecessary; since at the time, we didn't have an official military in 1787. If the reason is self-defense, then might as well make burglar alarms (ADT) part of the constitution.

    If we're going to ban guns, we should expand our law enforcement since they will be needed more.

    In the state of California, we have the strictest gun regulations and our gun crimes have decreased. I wish this went the same for other states.

    Guns exist to kill others. That's what gunpowder has been used for.

    Most pro-gun advocates say that we need a gun to protect us from the corrupt government. Honestly, if the government will take us by force, they will. They are the ones who want a larger military.

    Guns should be strictly regulated, especially handguns since they are easy to conceal and to shoot. Some of us do hunt for food so rifles should be open to hunters.
     
    #17 anthonythegamer, Oct 26, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2013
  18. Siarad

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  19. AwesomGaytheist

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    The NRA loves to say that more guns will solve the gun problem. That's like saying the only way to break a heroin addiction is to shoot up more heroin. After the Newtown shootings, they ran around saying we should put armed police officers in every school in America. Well gee, someone with a gun is trying to shoot up a school, and he has the advantage of surprise. Think for a moment, who's going to be the first school employee getting shot to death? Now that lunatic has another gun and several more rounds of ammo.

    After the Sparks Middle School shooting last week, the NRA now thinks that we should, as a reward for getting good grades and making honor roll, arm students as well as teachers and put cops in every school in America. Don't know about you, but I wouldn't trust a 12-year-old with a Glock, and the events in Sparks, Nevada should be enough reason why.

    My question for the NRA is this. How many children have to die so your degenerate members can keep their precious guns in fear of some mythical tyrannical government?
     
  20. June Cleaver

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    That is silly logic! LOL Knives kill, therefore they should be outlawed too. Cars kill, therefore they should be outlawed. Dogs kill, therefore dogs should be exterminated. People kill with their bare hands, therefore people should be exterminated! See how silly that logic can be?

    If guns scare you, then stay away from them. There are far too many out there to get them all back, so the point is mute. Also every military out there and most police forces will never give them up, so they will always be a fact of life. It would be far more beneficial to educate everyone on the safe handling and use of them like we do with cars with drivers licences. June