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Misogyny: Not Just For Straight Boys

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by AtheistWorld, Nov 5, 2013.

  1. AtheistWorld

    AtheistWorld Guest

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    Misogyny: Not Just For Straight Boys | Flyover Feminism

    [Trigger Warning for descriptions of unwanted physical contact]

    Leaning on the counter in the bathroom, crying in a mix of anger and fear, I turned toward a concerned voice, “Is it a guy? Your boyfriend? You know what you need to do? You need to hang out with gay guys! They’re the best!”

    I resist the urge to laugh in her face, I just say, “It was a gay guy.” She looks confused, she is a straight girl who loves her gay BFF and she can’t imagine what a gay man could do to send a woman crying to the bathroom.

    Let me back up a bit. It was back in university and I was on the executive of the queer club. My job was to work with one other exec to run all dances and pub nights. A few nights prior to the incident at the bar we were throwing our annual Halloween party. We hired a DJ, a gay man recommended by other club members, and spent a couple hours pulling CDs to appeal to all musical tastes, rather than favouring the usual electro/dance/pop music that is so ubiquitous in the gay bar scene.

    When we got to the venue and handed the box to the DJ he told us he would not be taking requests because he had already created his set list. We told him that this wasn’t acceptable, that we had picked this music for a reason and he had to be open to requests. Throughout the evening we, the people paying his fee, made requests only to be rebuffed. I was furious. I questioned whether he would have behaved that way had I been a man.

    Later, I was dancing with friends when I felt someone start grinding behind me, I thought it was one of my friends, I turned around and it was some guy who I’d never met. When I told him off he looked at me like I was nuts, he may have said something, I don’t remember. What I do remember is being triggered and spending the next twenty minutes crying and being consoled by friends.

    This kind of behaviour isn’t that unusual in my experience, there are plenty of gay men out there who think it is perfectly fine to lay hands on women’s bodies because “it’s not like I’m trying to sleep with you”. It doesn’t occur to them that it’s about my bodily autonomy and not their motives. I don’t care who you are, you have no right to start groping a stranger in the bar.

    Flash forward, back to the incident that sent me crying to the bathroom.

    It was queer night at a downtown bar and I was sitting on a stool chatting with a guy and expressing my frustration with the DJ from the Halloween party. Who, it turned out, was a friend of his and so he took it upon himself to let me know what a wretched bitch I was. He was standing, looking down at me, pushing into my space and using all the classic tactics of physical intimidation that so many men use. Shoving his finger in my face, yelling in my face. When I told him to get out of my face repeatedly he only yelled louder. When I tried to push him away he yelled “DON’T YOU FUCKING TOUCH ME!” I managed to get off the stool and run to the bathroom. Enter the well-meaning straight girl telling me how dandy it is to hang out with gay men because they are so damn safe.

    At the same time I seemed to be dealing with a rash of misogynist, sexist and outright abusive gay men I was responsible for protecting their safety at an upcoming event. In response to posters advertising a queer pub night we had received a death threat, threatening to “throw you fags out a fifth floor window.” So my cohort and I were working with campus police, fighting to ensure that none of the men at our party would get bashed.

    The irony was not lost on me.

    In talking to straight people I have found that many hold the assumption that gay men are somehow defacto feminists – perhaps because people see the connection between misogyny and homophobia, at least on an intuitive level. Somehow their gayness is supposed to have rendered them immune to the teachings of a misogynist culture, or their disinterest in lady bits means that they are devoid of all the worst things associated with masculinity and manhood. What they fail to understand is that not only do gay men grow up in the same sexist culture as straight men, they don’t even need to be in women’s good graces. When a sexist ass has no interest in getting into any woman’s pants he tends to be much more up front with his hateful language and sexist attitudes toward women. This doesn’t mean that all gay men are misogynists; it means that they are no better and no worse than straight men in this regard.

    To be a bi woman married to a man and a feminist and involved in the queer community is most often more than I can take. When I moved to Toronto I gave up on being involved with the queer community. Between the bi-phobia and the potential for more run-ins like the ones above I have serious trust issues. If I try to imagine joining the community I envision myself constantly defending my right to be there, justifying my identity, justifying my marriage, alert for those who would violate my space and my boundaries. As a result I often feel cut off from my people. When I went to a screening of a queer film I sat alone watching all the other queers meeting with friends and laughing, I can’t begin to describe how alone that made me feel.

    Misogyny is everywhere (as are racism, trans-phobia and bi-phobia). There is no magic ticket that makes a community safe or inclusive. There are many of us who have either been pushed out or opted out of a community that is supposed to be ours. We must check the balance sheet, measuring the value of membership against the emotional toll of fighting to be heard and accepted. For many of us, the price of joining in is just too high.
     
  2. chercheur

    chercheur Guest

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    Anyone is capable of misogyny. It doesn't matter if you're male, female, gay, straight, trans*, cis, whatever. Anyone who treats women as though they are inferior to men, objectifies them, etc., is guilty of misogyny, regardless.

    By that same token...and I'ma just say this...I feel like the author of this article isn't quite getting it right. She seems to be feeding into the idea of gender roles and that men should treat women a certain way simply because women are somehow weaker.

    Women don't deserve special treatment, because women are strong. They deserve equal treatment. Any time you say women should be treated differently from men, it's sexist because you are saying the two are inequal.

    And NO ones body or personal space should be violated, in any way by anyone, again, regardless of sex, gender, or sexual orientation. It's not okay for a woman to do the things she's talking about to another woman, either, because if it's violate, sex is irrelevant. Also, she talks about how gay men think it's okay to violate a woman's space because sexual attraction isn't there, but there are many straight women who think it's okay to treat gay men as pets and violate *their* personal space. I've had girls do stuff like she talked about, to me, as a boy. I've had guys do it to me as a boy AND as a girl. All are equally wrong.

    I think the fundamental point here is that we should all learn to treat each others like equals and with equal respect and human dignity. Anytime you think it's okay to act a certain way because of your sex/gender/sexual orientation or think you should be treated a certain way because of any of these, you're standing in the way of progress.
     
  3. DrkRayne

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    I've only dealt with misogyny from transwomen. MtF. They seem to think that if women don't have their standard of what a woman should look/act like they deserve to be made fun off. I've seen it too often. wayyy too often. It really annoys me.

    My partner and I go to shows with friends and I see women being made fun of for not being thin enough, or not moving their hips the way she says she should. Once a transwoman told my gf she looked like she belongs at home depot. Another made fun of a black girl for not straightening her hair.

    I dont know if they think its funny, but its not. I can't understand it.
     
  4. Techno Kid

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    Absolutely, anyone is capable of misogyny, racism, trans-phobia, bi-phobia, etc. No one has the right to get in your space or make you feel small.
     
  5. jargon

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    It sounds like some of the guys in the article were being jerks, but I honestly can't see what convinces the author that they were misogynists. Misogyny =/= "being a jerk to women." Misogyny is more like "being a jerk to women, in particular," i.e., in a way that you aren't towards men.

    Don't get me wrong: I'm a firm believer that sexism can come from individuals or all sexual orientations. And the men in the article may well have been misogynists. But unless I missed something in the article, we weren't given any actual evidence that this was the cause of their behavior. The closest that I'm finding is the unsupported (though perhaps not unreasonable) speculation: "I questioned whether he would have behaved that way had I been a man." Maybe not! But since we can't know, I think the author should have picked a different way to prove that non-straight men can be misogynists.
     
  6. Sarcastic Luck

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    Blegh. This article just reminds me of my mother and her "all men are out to get me" attitude.
     
  7. chercheur

    chercheur Guest

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    Yeah, this, exactly. And what I think is interesting is, *she's* the one who made this about their sexuality. It could have just been a couple dbags acting like dbags, but because they were GAY she assumed they *must* have thought they had the right to "treat women a certain way" because of their sexuality, even though there was no evidence of that. All that shows is she chose to bring their sexuality into it and make it a defining characteristic, when really, it's irrelevant. That is more evident of her own homophobia, to me.

    And honestly, her examples of "sexism"? I mean, it's not really sexism, to me. That's just people being jerks like people do...there was no evidence that it had anything to do with her gender, that I could see. To me, it seems more like she's feeding into outdated gender roles on how women should be treated by men (ie, as though they're "weaker sex", which is obviously untrue), without realizing that true feminism says that women should simply be treated as equals, same as men.
     
  8. Spatula

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    "The DJ I hired won't take my music requests, therefore he hates women".

    I'm not very comfortable with that conclusion.

    This is quite true, unfortunately. Queer men (not simply gay men) can be some of the most ardent feminists and proactive voices for women's rights, but some can also be the most misogynistic people around. I've run into this and it's frustrating. The same could be said in reverse for queer women though.
     
  9. gravechild

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    Yeah, you'd think disenfranchised groups would find more reason to stick together, in theory, but being human and susceptible to outside influences, the same phobias and biases exist within LGBT communities, as well. It might take a slightly different form, sure, but it's still there, and in some ways, closer to home, since a lot of us have to battle homophobia, transphobia, misogyny, etc from the mainstream, only adding to internalized loathing.

    When I was still a feminine "straight guy" I assumed the LGBT community would be some gender utopia, which was both naive and idealistic, at the time. Oppression Olympics is still common, unfortunately, so a lot of times when a real issue is discussed and brought to attention online, it's quickly shut down by the majority, essentially making it so things stay the same way for whichever group us affected.

    There's a fair bit of generalizing by the author of this article, too. Assuming a few asshats accurately represent all gay men everywhere is really no better than treating them as harmless little puppies, and laughing sexist jokes and actions off with, "Oh, he doesn't know any better!" Sexism IS an issue, but going on the warpath is not the way to gain allies for your cause.
     
  10. Gen

    Gen
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    Jargon, said this perfectly. This is not a misogyny issue.

    As I have described on here before, I am of a rather slim and short build. Most women these days are around my height and above my weight. There have been a plethora of times in which admirers, or acquaintances claiming to be 'joking', have groped, grabbed, or pressed themselves on me. With men, most would agree that being forceful with a women is unacceptable. With women, no one cares because its stereotyped that the man would always want, regardless of if he vocally rejects it.

    There was one instance in which I was backup into a corner by a girl who thought that pressing her chest and the rest of her body on me would be enough to interest me after I already voiced that I wasn't. I could not physically stop her until my back was to the wall because I didn't weight enough to combat her's. She was smiling and I told her to stop, but she proceeded until I was finally able to throw her off of me.

    This is not a misogyny issue. This is an issue of inconsideration and ignorance. The idea that simply because our orientations don't align, its fair game. Its funny. Its lighthearted. Its fine. But its not. Although not to discount the difficulty that this woman may have felt, the overstepping of proper boundaries by straight women on gay men has been brewing for quite some time and is long overdue for correction.
     
  11. Ruthven

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    This isn't totally related, but this reminds me of a time when my mum said in a complete generalising annoying fashion, that guys have bigger frames than girls and their structure's different so that's why guys shouldn't pick on girls (she was actually talking about one of our male cats fighting with one of the girls, but she was talking about just in general too).

    So you and that situation is even more proof that "women are always physically weaker" is a load of shit. :dry:

    Why can't society just embrace the let's all be equal to each other, and not beat/force themselves on anyone idea?
     
  12. Valkyrimon

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    That seems less like misogyny and more like just people being bitches. I've seen loads cis girls act like that towards other girls too, both cis and trans. It's just general bitchiness. In fact, all the trans women I know personally seem to hold the opposite view that stereotypes of look and personality are bullshit. No doubt, there are loads of bitchy trans women stuck in the media's interpretation of what a woman should be too, but please, don't tar everyone with the same brush. It's rude and just not true.