First of all, I am extremely wary of posting this, due to the rather savage nature of the subject, but anyhow... So, as some of you may know, my closest friends are feminists. Now, I know feminism comes in many different times and flavors, so my topic of discussion is restricted to what has often been dubbed as "Tumblr Feminists." I can respect much of the feminist ideal, although a few of its aspects seem rather dogmatic to me. For example, I have observed my friends to hold the belief in sex-sexuality-race rights all being tied together as inseparably related. All very sensible, but when I make the insertion that it is more of an opportunistic relationship rather than hard fact I received the general sneers and eye-rolls for simple insight. Yet another instance which particularly unsettled me was a discussion about intersex people. I had been discussing when the talked veered in the direction of hermaphroditism. I was discussing the difference between a True-Functioning Hermaphrodite -- an as-of-yet undocumented and only speculated form of hermaphroditism among humans in which both male and female gonadal tissue function -- and intersex. For clarification, Intersex -- Now the unsettling business happened when my friend asked why I even cared about such variations in sex, to which I responded that I merely found the topic interesting. She went on the, quite angrily, proclaim that people could identify as whatever they wanted, which I countered by saying intersex was more under the domain of biology than psychology and was largely objective in its identification. She then pulled out the "meanings are changing" stock, to which I responded with something along the lines of, "but clear meaning is needed to proceed in science." She then retorted with "Science was written by old, white, guys," leaving me absolutely dumbstruck at her complete rejection at empirical evidence. So, this is only one in a few encounters with what I perceive as radical feminism. Maybe I'm simply ignorant, but based on my research, I would say otherwise to an extent. It's been a few weeks, and I'm still in awe at the cult-like nature of this set of theories, as they seem to strictly preserve themselves for the mere fact of self-preservation, much like a religion. They seek no insight outside their originators, and that really bugs me. I feel terribly sorry for truly intersex people, as it seems that such a lax interpretation sort of degrades their status as a sex minority. It makes me wonder if any label will have meaning if such ideas become adopted, as I do enjoy having the pride to say "I'm a homosexual" without that losing its meaning too. Please, do provide insight, whether it be in contrast or harmony with my observances.
Feminism, true feminism is all about equality but the application of true feminism in my mind is the appropriate feminist therapy phrase, "The personal is political." The double meaning is very basic yet very deep. 1. Noticing the politics of the personal and actual politcal and community world helps to reaise awareness for the oppressed and those outside of the oppressed who wish to end oppression. Simply put, it's asking you to look at your life and the environments and structures around it and see if those structures are empowering you or holding you back. Of course then ultimately I as a Jungian Feminist therapist will try to push the client into finding safe yet effective routes to end their own oppression be it personal, environmental, familial or political. 2. Once a feminist reaches the stage where they have found equality in their own personal world, they ultimately are asked to take simple or complex steps to help raise awareness for others who are oppressed personally or politically. Feminism is a constant battle and balance of finding your levels of oppressive structures , working through them and helping others find their own So my experiences in feminism lie in my practice where, while I flavor it with Jungian theory, I stay true to feminism and help those who are personally or politically or environmentally oppressed shed of such oppression. That's what feminism is to me As far as others go, when I explain I am a feminist, many instantly think I am the so-called feminazi or an apologist. Nothing could be more wrong. Rather, I wish men, women, white blacnk, gay straight and whoever have ultimate equality unless their PERSONAL actions disqualify them from said equality (and in this manner I mean actions such as oppressing others or criminal actions etc) Foxface
So it seems you wouldn't hold to such specific views as I described in my friends, but try to apply general and universal philosophy to everything? That seems nice, but how would you, as a feminist, comment on my examples? I'm just a bit tired of, after much of my youth which is much of my life, of being ignorant. I hate and detest ignorance, especially within myself, but can suffer it in others. Was I ignorant in my ideas, or if my friends were, do I simply let them resolve it naturally and become disillusioned?
Feminism is a journey for anyone who decides to engage in it, and sometimes part of that journey can be going a bit overboard in ones interpretations of the tenants of feminism, as it seems your friends might have done. Especially since Tumblr has a lot of teenagers on it, a lot of the stereotypical "Tumblr feminists" are just people trying to figure out how the world works, how this philosophy works, and how they fit into it and how it fits into their lives. We all believe embarrassing things as teenagers. Personally, I'm glad the teens on Tumblr will have their embarrassing opinions be honest-to-goodness attempts at being better people, instead of them buying into the systems of oppression we're born into and having to unlearn that later. I'm glad they're unlearning it now.
I suppose that is a nice optimistic view for my generally pessimistic mind. Opposition lends strength to dogma, so I suppose patience is the key! Thanks for easing my mind, what with so many other viewpoints flying about, it's difficult for someone my age to filter everything or to know how to judge themselves. Thanks ^.^
So it seems you wouldn't hold to such specific views as I described in my friends, but try to apply general and universal philosophy to everything? That seems nice, but how would you, as a feminist, comment on my examples? I'm just a bit tired of, after much of my youth which is much of my life, of being ignorant. I hate and detest ignorance, especially within myself, but can suffer it in others. Was I ignorant in my ideas, or if my friends were, do I simply let them resolve it naturally and become disillusioned?[/QUOTE] There is an enormous difference between ignorance and difference. What you think about feminism and their sometimes broad brush strokes does not make you right or wrong. It's like trying to attach a concrete definition to an abstract. I always hark back to the old argument "Do you love me?" "Yes" "Prove it" It's not really possible and thus what a definition or argument one has about feminism is their own. Yes I indeed have an overall definition of what feminism entails. To me it is about true equality. So one who is cis, trans, intersex, gay, straight, bi, black white whatever has in their lives some level oppression. Obviously it would be less so in my opinion for a cis straight male rather than a lesbian, trans female but my point still stands. So I've rambled enough...to your interractions Unfortunately I see two problems in this situation. 1. Your friend has done exactly what I hate...stock answers. Yes meanings are changing but her response is a cop-out imo. 2. Equality is a weird thing. When you say clear meaning is need to proceed in science, I would respond in a less-stock, but still stock question. "Why is it important to for the scientist to determine one who is intersex?" Again I want to point out that you are no ignorant. I applaud your movement towards knowledge. Frankly the people (sorry to say) like your friend is what makes feminism seem like a road to disaster. She paints with broad strokes, as do I, but she sounds like she does it in an objective manner whereas I use it as my philosophy then individualize my treatment towards clients and such. Yes I agree meanings are changing and it is neccesary but frankly I think there CAN be a marriage between science and philosophy. The problem is one shouldn't trump another unless it's a pure example. You want to know two plus two? How thermometers work? Science is your pal, but I don't try to use the scientific mind on a situation like you described here. But again, stock answers get you nowhere as for my personal feelings on intersex, I can't argue that there is scientific basis to it but then I'm not one to tell another who they are...but then again it doesn't sound like that's what you were doing All said, keep searching for truth no matter what happens you are not ignorant...your friends are just trying to be conrete and overdrawn on what is at its core a simple concept as far as your age goes, I salute you for not filtering yourself Foxface
I have no tolerance for anyone who isn't a feminist. There's no middle ground you can happily say that you sit in. Either you think women are equal to men or you don't. That simple. (or rather, that's the best way to force them to admit their sexism; feminism is complex and connected with so many other movements and theories) And I have no tolerance for men who say "I think women are equal, but" proceed to prove that they think women are inferior.
Thank you very much Foxface, I highly appreciate your insight. As just a side note, while I believe intersex does fall under the realm of biology, how we react to it is, as you seemed to imply, under social philosophy. I just focused on Science as an engine for exposing what has been a long past of pain and confusion for these people, which is why I spoke of the importance of scientific progress. @Aussie792 I believe I know your meaning, but it seems a bit much to not tolerate those who do not identify as feminists. I believe your meaning was rather, "I have no tolerance for anyone who doesn't think women are equal." Due to myself not being a feminist, I view equality amongst the sexes as a mere "quality" of Feminism -- even if it is a core quality -- a quality that can be echoed in other schools of thought.
Like SaintOtaku said, there are movements that are not feminism that believe that everyone is equal. For a few examples, how about egalitarianism and humanism? I, for one, do not identify as feminist. I merely think that everyone is equal in the eyes of the law. Or, at least, that's how it should be. Everyone has the freedom to accomplish something. An obstructive government full of old people is not going to help anyone with that. What would my train of thought here be called? Should I create a new movement? ("Chrisism" doesn't work, nor does "Gentlemanism"...) Besides, the word is too associated with feminazis, radically dogmatic left-wingers, and idiots with victim complexes.
If you truly believe women are equal to men, then you are a feminist. If you're not a feminist, you hold women to be inferior to men. There are different types of approaches, but you're either feminist or sexist. Oh, and An Gentlemen, the word "feminazi" is possibly the most ridiculous word usable in conversations like this. It's like a verbal fedora, and completely lacking in any intellectual depth. Oh, and "victim complex"? Sure, it must be so hard for you seeing women able to get justice for rape, gaining better pay, and being taken seriously. My heart goes out to you.
I say this with a measure of apprehension, and I'd like to point out that I am a feminist, and this woman doesn't qualify for that, in my opinion. But she calls herself one. When I was 16, I couldn't get treated for being trans very easily. I finally found a private doctor to treat me. He gave me hormones, and more or less saved my life. Recently, I came across an article on said doctor which informed me, in the worst possible terms, that he was trans himself, by using the term 'woman', and went on to describe an unnamed 16 year old patient who'd received hormone therapy from this guy, and subjected him to a load of transphobic abuse. There is a fair chance that patient is me. Anyway, this article is on a 'feminist' blog that I've been warned to avoid by some IRL trans friends, one of whom commented on one of the articles there, and basically got cyberstalked and bullied, off the site, for months. So yeah, I've encountered my share of transphobic feminism. As I said, I don't need anyone to tell me that feminism isn't like that or anything, because I already know that. It just saddens me that people like that exist.
And I will certainly not insult your intelligence. I'd rather add my sadness to that situation...terrible It never ceases to amaze me that people who are oppressed or abused turn around and do it to others Foxface
The problem with people who identify as "egalitarians" or "humanists" in lieu of identifying as "feminists" is that they tend to (in my experience) be the kind of people who give lip service to the idea that everyone should be equal, but then refuse to acknowledge that anything needs to be done to achieve that. Using words other than "feminism" also takes the focus off of the fact that gender inequality, both that which hurts women and that which hurts men, is caused by our culture's devaluing of women and all things feminine, and that in order to achieve equality, we need to elevate women and femininity to be seen as just as legitimate as men and masculinity. It's been my experience that people who identify as "egalitarian" or "equalists" tend to actively discourage that elevation of women and femininity that we need if we're going to achieve equality. Your train of thought is called feminism. Feminism is, at its core, thinking critically about oppression, and that's exactly what you're doing when you say, "An obstructive government full of old people is not going to help anyone with that." Feminazis are a myth that is not worthy of being taken seriously. Women calling men out on their bullshit is nowhere near comparable to the genocide of an entire people.
