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Edward Snowden, hero or criminal?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Techno Kid, Nov 7, 2013.

  1. Techno Kid

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    Do you think Edward Snowden is a hero, criminal, or somewhere in between?

    How about we not let this thread go bad? Be civil to each other. :slight_smile:
     
  2. Saint Otaku

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    He seemed to be doing what he thought was right, and I do love those who meddle with the career politicians >:-D
     
  3. BryanM

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    No clue. I do think he should at least come and face trial, though.
     
  4. Mike92

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    I'll just re-state what I said about Snowden in another thread: He's a criminal. Period.
     
  5. Ticklish Fish

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    They need more pictures of him on news. Im getting old of his usual face in journalism.
     
  6. Saint Otaku

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    Yeah, but I doubt it would be a fair trial. These people claim to expose the corrupt, and by the corrupt are they pursued; can't deal too well with a cheater.
     
  7. Aussie792

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    Criminal is not the opposite of hero. Criminal is simply what the law states, and as such must be treated neither as inherently good nor bad.

    Snowden is, on the whole, worse than he is good. Had he only leaked some things that need to be leaked, I would consider him fine. Given that he leaked diplomatic documents and other sensitive information that the general public has no use for, but Moscow does, is a terrible action.

    And to claim he's pro freedom when he seeks the refuge of the Kremlin (and thus gives his support to Moscow), is disgustingly hypocritical. Similar to Assange seeking Ecuadorian assistance.

    This is not black and white and easy. Even though he's in the wrong, it doesn't mean the US authorities aren't in the wrong, too. And both are in the right in some cases.
     
  8. blueberrymuffin

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    He should win the nobel peace prize. Extra props to the committee if they confiscate obama's prize and give it to snowden.
     
  9. Foxface

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    Criminal...period

    There are channels to use when something unethical is going on. The military, paramilitary and the alphabet agencies have support in place to report such things. He violated his NDA and his clearance. If we were in war on our own land it could be treason

    As a veteran who still has a TS/CSI clearance and an NDA I find what he did as perhaps morally wonderful but poorly executed. Yes it is extreme but I would like to see him jailed

    I take my clearance and NDA VERY seriously

    Nobody here or anywhere will ever know the things trusted to me and I would expect the exact same from any of you who were in these situations.

    He saw a moral and ethical problem and acted. Good...but he needed to do it in the appropriate channels

    Foxface
     
  10. Hrantou

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    The way I see it, he's a traitor to this country and now he's drinking wine and dining with the Russians. I'm sure he had his reasons and all that jazz, but you don't betray your country dude. And then runs to the Russians to hide out which Russia is arguably not our biggest fans right now. Of all countries...Russia? Really?

    But eh. We'll see how it plays out. Like Aussie792 said, its not just black and white and the US isn't exactly in the clear these days either...

    My 2 cents.
     
  11. Chip

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    Snowden made a very difficult and carefully thought-out decision. In doing what he did, he gave up his long-term girlfriend, his life and existence as he'd known it, risked his freedom and, as well, his life. I have no doubt that the decision he made was because he was focused first on the values in our Bill of Rights and Constitution, and wanted to make sure that the message got out there.

    I disagree that there was another reasonable option to get the information out there; others have made similar accusations about the NSA, but the NSA just lied its ass off (as it has done in every other circumstance) and swore they weren't doing anything that they were accused of. It was only when Snowden provided irrefutable evidence that the NSA and the administration were forced to admit that they'd been lying about what the NSA was doing, likely for decades.

    Remember, too, that he never intended to end up in Russia; he is there because the US twisted arms and convinced other countries to do shady stuff to effectively shut down other options for Snowden to go to another country. And remember that he spent a month or so basically in an airport lobby (or a tiny hotel room off of the airport lobby), and was out of touch with everyone and everything he knew.

    Yes, he violated the terms of his NDA and security clearance. But, as in the release of the Pentagon Papers, it was done with the intent of whistleblowing, and he's been extremely cautious in what he's revealed; he's not put out anything that could risk national security (other than pissing off our allies by letting it be known we're spying on their leaders) and it seems like his intent is only to ensure that conversation happens about what the NSA is doing.

    I'm sure he would have lived a much happier, more comfortable life doing what he was doing before. I think the decision he made was because he felt it was the right thign to do .
     
  12. Siarad

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    I think it's impossible to know the truth behind why he did what he did and what was/is really going on.

    He certainly exposed something (although if we thought our governments [from any country] weren't spying on us, that seems extraordinarily naive) but I agree that he should have exposed evidence of the government's spying rather than openly revealing highly confidential information that endangers the security of a country. People are unlikely to be celebrating their freedom if they are simultaneously being the victim of terrorist attacks (in case anyone thinks I'm advocating the kind of paranoid language about terrorism that American governments often perpetuate to keep citizens in a state of compliance- I should add that the same principle applies to victims of American violence in other countries who are in the process of being 'freed' by military action).

    I also agree that the current Russian government are one of the most corrupt, dictatorial and downright disgusting governments in the Western World and that if Snowden sees seeking refuge with them as part of his stand for 'freedom' then it makes me deeply suspicious and worried about his motives.

    On the other hand, I also agree that I find it unlikely verging on impossible that he would have any chance of a fair and open trial if he went back to America.

    Honestly, this is a really tricky one.
     
  13. Foxface

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    There are ALWAYS people you can go to. You start in the NSA. Obviously we know that doesn't work so i won't be naive there. Then you go to admin of the NSA. Then you try another alphabet agency like the OSI. Then you go to the House Armed Services Committee on Oversight. Then you move to the Senate. Etc, Etc

    Any one with a clearance knows this things. When you get a TS/CSI, a Secret hell even a confidential you know these things. You know how to report up the chain. You know how to go about reporting things without breaking confidentiality. When I got my TS/CSI/CNWDI I was very clearly told how to report unethical situations. Although I never reported one personally, I was involved in a serious investigation and the system works just fine

    So yes, there are plenty of ways to report this without leaking the information, breaking your NDA and releasing top secret information

    He had other methods.

    Foxface
     
    #13 Foxface, Nov 7, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  14. Argentwing

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    He is a criminal, but the law criminalizing him is unjust. Yeah, he technically gave out state secrets, but they weren't detrimental to the country as a whole, such as battle plans would be. I remember they said they accused him of espionage. That is funneling information to an enemy in times of war. If giving this out to the American people is espionage, the government sees us as enemies.

    He was incredibly brave to do what he did as he basically threw his life away for a better USA, exactly what is expected by the oaths of the military and other service personnel. I'm going to call him a hero. We need many more like him.
     
  15. Siarad

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    It seems naive to criminalise or hero worship somebody about whom we know so little truth.

    I don't trust a man who seeks refuge with the Russian government and I don't trust America to give him a fair trial if he goes back.

    Just let's not write a Robin Hood story about a man who undoubtedly had ulterior motives.
     
  16. Foxface

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    I'm going to take a second to say I mean you no disrespect. Simply debating :slight_smile:

    There is a large difference between reporting unethical behavior and what he did. As I posted to Chip there are so many committes, agencies and individuals outside of the NSA he could have reported to but he chose not to. I agree what he did was not espionage by definition but breaking a TS clearance and his NDA are a very serious crime. And actually there is no way to know for sure that what he leaked wasn't detrimental.

    Like I said in other threads, I am not agreeing with what the NSA did but I can't sit and make an armchair decision that there wasn't a reason behind it. But like I said there were soooooo many ways he could have approached this that were well within the federal laws and rights of his NDA.

    Foxface
     
  17. Beware Of You

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    I don't think his motives are as admirable as some make it out to be. I think he is slightly narcissistic in the way he wanted to get his face on every news media out there its like he wanted to become some anti-hero character. I don't get why everyone was shocked, the governments have been monitoring a lot for decades ( WWII) its just changed with the time. I think he is a slight coward hiding out in Russia considering that the Russian FSB is as bad as the NSA and GCHQ (they have just been found to have huge monitoring in place for the olympics .


    Chelsea Manning is a hero to me at least, she actually exposed times when innocent people were killed and was covered up etc. At least she did it for reasons other than herself.

    As someone with an interest in signing up for the military reserve in a couple of years, if I leaked classified info, that may put other people's lives at risk then I would expect to face a court martial over this.

    Also The Guardian is getting insane over this, they are complaining over how some journalist's boyfriend was detained on terror laws since he had the laptop containing the info and was refused entry since he was a Brazilian so no automatic right to enter. Why did the journalist have his boyfriend to keep the laptop, why have the info stored on there and not somewhere safe etc. To be fair the data could have been useful to terror groups since it contained stuff the Guardian didn't want to publish. I have friends in the military I will be worried if stuff gets out that will affect their safety.

    Another point, how did a contractor get access to so much data and get it off site in the first place?
     
    #17 Beware Of You, Nov 7, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  18. Aussie792

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    Although I understand the sentiment, releasing confidential papers in such a public and uncontrolled way is not simply giving it to the people. It gave detailed information to the Taliban, and to less spy-savvy nations (I generally assume China and Russia are able to access foreign information with relative ease, anyway), and other terror groups. Had a controlled leak gone to the media, and no publication of name had occurred, then the situation might be somewhat legitimate. A man who releases government documents indiscriminately, then makes himself known, with a likely intent to be martyred, and finally seeks the asylum of the Russian government, is not in any way doing good.

    Oh, and given that the Kremlin supplies extensive security, I don't imagine that he's hard-up in any way.
     
    #18 Aussie792, Nov 7, 2013
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013
  19. Argentwing

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    I will admit that leaking documents deemed sensitive for any reason is irresponsible, but I'm not saying his execution was good-- only his intent, and even then on a basic level. I can understand the sloppiness and narcissism inherent in releasing things that way and then claiming some sort of martyr status when he's pursued.

    So hero/douchebag? :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:
     
  20. Hexagon

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    Yes, because telling the authorities you want to report on that you're going to report on them is a brilliant idea. No, its not like they might attempt to silence him, after all. Of course they wanted all the details of their unethical activity going public.

    Governments don't have a right to secrets.