Feminity vs. Masculinity in Gay Men

Maybe, but I'm not sure it is the responsibility of the LGBTQ community to change so other people can accept them. I'm a somewhat stereotypically femme guy, I don't try to be more femme or more masc, but I've been told I have a gay voice, I like fashion, and I am pretty expressive. I've always been more feminine. I don't think that I should have to dial that down to have the LGBTQ community be more accepted.

If I have to change to be accepted, am I really accepted?
I don't know.

 

yup..the problem is with the haters of femme or masculine gays. The problem isn't with the femme or masculine gays themselves

Foxface

 

I found this on Wikipedia and thought it might help show my point:
Masculinity is a set of qualities, characteristics or roles generally considered typical of, or appropriate to, a man. It can have degrees of comparison: "more masculine", "most masculine'". The opposite can be expressed by terms such as "unmanly'" or epicene. A near-synonym of masculinity is virility (from Latin vir, man). Constructs of masculinity vary across historical and cultural contexts. The dandy, for instance, was regarded as an ideal of masculinity in the 19th century, but is considered effeminate by modern standards.

How we view things changes over time and I don't see a problem with that.

Everyone should feel comfortable to express themselves in whatever way they feel is natural to them. A person should not feel presured to act a certain way because of their sex.

 

What an interesting strategy. You just had a post get removed by moderators for stating that feminine gays invite hatred and that if they'd stop there would be less violence, so now you're doing this...

What do you expect this thread to accomplish exactly?

 

I'm not sure if I understand your question but I think I understand. Forgive me if I'm wrong. As the gay community, we used to be in your face and different in the 70s trying to flaunt our differences. Lately thought, the "strategy" has been to make gays look as "normal" to straight men. This includes both being less flamboyant, more "manly," less "feminine," less promiscuous, more "family oriented." I believe this was done to help mainstream gay rights by showing people that denying gay rights was denying rights to a group of normal, wholesome people and that we all want to marry, raise kids, etc.

This is good because there are many gay men who don't fit the stereotype of flamboyant, fashion oriented, show-tunes listening gay men. It helps to tell them it's OK to be who you are because being gay is connected to what you like. But at the same time it puts social pressure on "flamboyant" gays to conform to the "normal" gays.

The benefits of making gays look less flamboyant is that to some demographics, it makes it more easy to swallow giving rights to such a group and garners acceptance at a greater rate, at least in my opinion. At the same time, those who don't conform to the new gay image of more "manly," less "feminine" are left out in the cold in some respect because "society" now measures them against the more masculine gay man and are seen as less desirable. The key to understand is that all gay men are united by our cause and we mustn't trample on other gays in order to get ahead. That is what some forget.

Sorry I didn't answer your question appropriately.

 

He's trying to have a conversation about how feminine gays make everything worse for all of us, so please just entertain those points for him.

 

No. Requiring someone to follow a set of rules (that extend beyond manners and public decency) designed to limit their behaviours is never acceptance. The expectation of femininity in gay men is only damaging if people have a problem with femininity/women (which they do).

That said, you cannot, and must not try to combat problems like misogyny and homophobia by conforming to a set of (patriarchal and equally stereotypical) contrived behaviours that deliberately limit personality and expression, as well as confining people to gender roles.

That's not fighting the problem, that's just twisting the rules so that, although you won't be accepted by the people who want the gender roles, you'll at least be safe from being beaten up. It's self-defeating and playing into the hands of homophobes/sexists, and is exactly what internalised homophobia is defined as.

 

^ You mean we'll be accepted as long as nobody knows we're not straight?

Don't be ridiculous.

 

I normally shy away from hard stances but I find that unacceptable. Basically what you are saying is that the onus is on us femmes to "act right" so we get treated better and don't ruin it for you masculines gays?

I'm sorry but that is highly insulting and offensive. I don't go looking for trouble but all those times I acted femme in high school and got the crap kicked out of me...guess what...it wasn't MY fault and I didn't ruin a thing for those 'normal' LGBT folk

No it's the problem of the anti-progress, homophobic and I guess now femme-phobic people...not mine

There is no normal for gay, there is no acceptable for gay

we just are...don't blame it on the femmes...try blaming it on the violent homophobes maybe

Foxface

 

Foxface beat me to it, but I agree with him totally.

I am your everyday ordinary person. (just so you know, I'm not easily offended, and though I find your point offensive, I'm not offended by it.) I am a brother, a friend and a co-worker to many people. I think your logic implies that there is a right way to be a man or a woman. Metrosexuals are allowed to be femme and straight. I don't want to be a stereotype. I want to be me. In many ways I am a stereotype, but in many ways, I am absolutely not a stereotype.

But I will not change my voice, which I have always had, my favorite activities and passions, or my personality to be accepted. If I make it harder for you to be accepted as a gay man, I am so sorry that you have people around you that can't see passed stereotypes to individual people, but I think you are going to be hard pressed to find somebody that fits all of your stereotypes of femme or masc gay men.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. People that fall inside and outside of the stereotypes need to be accepted.

 

In a way, some could say some gay rights organizations are partially to blame (pardon this sentence laden with wiggle words). Many states are trying to push for marriage equality while discrimination against gays (and LBTs) is still legal in most states. The original ENDA bill years ago did not protect against discrimination to trans folks because some thought it was too unpalatable to mainstream people and lawmakers. HRC got flak for that but simply stated they wanted to get what they could get from lawmakers (even though they never did get the law passed). Many organizations are trying to polish up the images of gays by trying to "raise" our "moral standards" and looks to fit with the Norman Rockwellesque, good ol' Americana values we all seem to strive for. Unfortunately, that's not the right attitude or mindset.

 

Nobody should indulge the OP further. This thread was not only clearly devoted to femme-bashing (the original was really terrible), it also is very likely to bring up insecurities and reminders of bullying due to femininity. It's disgusting and I'm sure a lot of people are going to be hurt.

Suffice it to say that this thread is laced with misogyny and intended to start both a flame-war and a femme-bashing session, which is absolutely intolerable for a support site like EC.

 

I'll battle wholeheartedly against anyone who believes that a gay man needs to act a certain way. I am bi myself and act cute and femme and all that good stuff but it isn't my duty to conform to some BS definition of how the queer population should act. Look I admit being femme may be hard for some straight-laced American males to take. I don't think it's right but that's them and I can't change that. But OP has literally said in two threads and now this one that the violence I withstood in grade, junior and high school is basically my fault because I should have been a real man! Whether OP meant it or not, that is precisely how it came out

I look at what Aussie just said in jest. We'll all be ok if we just hide who we are. That isn't my duty as a human being. It's the duty of all of us (imo) to accept others even if that means ignoring it or looking the other way. But that isn't what OP wants. OP wants us good little boys to strap on a toolbelt and conform because we are 'ruining' it for ourselves and others

Foxface

 

Mayhaps my opinion doesn't matter because I'm not even sure I like guys to that extent, but I personally don't place much stake, as I've said before, nor do I see any reason for, being out to every-damn-body in the first place. Who really needs to know what someone else chooses to do in their own bedroom? Honestly? As far as I'm concerned, really only immediate family who may be denied a new generation of blood relatives, and maybe an ending of bloodline and family name, the closest of friends, and any who ask. There's being out, and then there's being out just to stick it to cis, hetero people, and I've seen both since I've been here. Where, then, does masculinity and femininity among gay men fit in? Nowhere, really, and everywhere. You can't help, most of the time, how you're most comfortable expressing yourself, so if you're gay and out, whether masculine or feminine, saying "Fuck what's normal these days" or maintaining the status quo more or less, you're no more or less struggling for the same things than another gay man who is otherwise your polar opposite and I don't think change of presentation is really necessary to get the point across. The presentation has changed since the 70's, though, and I think this may be for the best. As I've pointed out before, life is painfully short and at the end of the day, we're all human. Whether masculine or feminine, we all bleed when cut, grieve when sad, express joy, and die when our time is up, the differences are vast and stark, but differences, too, are part of what makes humans human.

Things change as time goes on. Before 1900, babies wore white until they could walk, and until the very early 1900's, boys and girls both wore dresses and skirts with no social stigma, and it wasn't until the mid 1920s that pink was considered feminine and blue masculine. Before then, the opposite was true. The homosexual male of the 70s may have been flamboyant, but as everything else changed, so did gay men. Are there no flamboyant, fashion-obsessed, show tunes loving gay men left? Certainly there are, but the homosexual male of today by and large wants to be seen as a human being first, with his homosexuality as an afterthought, where the most common homosexual male of 1975 reveled in his not being straight and showing it. I see this as being no different than how humanity has changed and adapted since ancient Rome or the middle ages. The world is even different now than it was in 2000, and will be 13 years from now, and with those changes whatever they may be, how homosexuality is presented and perceived will change as well. This is not wrong, it's simply social evolution.

 

In the UK concepts of ‘maleness’ have changed dramatically in the last two decades regardless of sexual orientation. This has largely been a result of a shift away from institutional patriarchy that always favoured white, masculine, straight men over everyone else. As that institutional patriarchy has been progressively dismantled (and I grant, many would say there is a long way to go) what we have experienced as a society has been almost entirely positive because it has revealed the diversity of society.

As a gay man I have witnessed this in the gay community which has become much more willing to accept its own diversity – indeed, I have witnessed it in myself. No longer does being gay imply a set of traits or behaviours and we are allowed to be who we are.

And, guess what, who we are is enormously diverse. If anyone gets upset that a gay man (or woman) is more masculine or a gay man (or woman) is more feminine, I feel they should learn to live now and not in the past.

 

I once shared a similar opinion as OP does. In hindsight it was definitely a case of internal homophobia.

I found I avoided feminine gay guys (gay guys in general) and that was because I wasn't truly comfortable with myself. I'm glad I got past that and have a diverse group of gay friends in regards to their personalities.

He too will realise that eventually. Why don't you try speaking to a guy you perceive as 'feminine'? You might learn to see beyond that.