"Gender is a social construct" when it comes to transpeople but gay is "biological"

Re: "Gender is a social construct" when it comes to transpeople but gay is "biologica

It isn't a construct. It's a biological reality.
This is a big part of why my views became more conservative in the first place.
Liberals trying to make everything seem normal.
Many trans people won't feel normal until they can be the gender they were meant to be.
Trying to make everything seem like rainbows and sunshine?
That could make it even harder for the "complete transition" to come into existence.

 

Re: "Gender is a social construct" when it comes to transpeople but gay is "biologica

That's messed up.

Gender, and correct me if I'm wrong, is made up of many parts...

-Biological sex: Male/ Female/ Inter-sex
(BIOLOGICAL)
-Gender Identity: Too many to list but mainly... Cis-Gender/Trans*/Gender Queer (BIOLOGICAL/ with some scientific evidence stating that it might be caused be hormones in environment or traumatic experiences/NOT A CHOICE)
-the identity the person dresses as: Male/ Female/ Agender/ ect.
(SOMEWHAT OF A CHOICE/ Based on personality/ for someone who is transgender this means the choice to come out or stay closeted)
-Gender Roles: Femme/ masculine
(Decided by population/culture)

Gender is not a social construct. Gender is a Universe

 

Re: "Gender is a social construct" when it comes to transpeople but gay is "biologica

I think what trips many people up is that when trans* people say, socially transition, they may pick up the clothing styles and mannerisms that the person's particular society has "agreed" belong in the male or female domain. In that sense, such characteristics may fall in the "cultural" arena.

However, I respectfully bow out of this thread because I have limited understanding of this topic, which is also a sign of how society and science seem to denigrate trans rights by not putting much effort into understanding it in a greater level. The same thing can be say of gay females, in the sense that of the many LGBT studies done, the majority focus on gay males.

 

Re: "Gender is a social construct" when it comes to transpeople but gay is "biologica

Maybe I'm taking this the wrong way, but when I first read "gender is a social construct", I took it to mean that gender roles are a social construct. That what traits and actions are considered masculine or feminine is determined by culture of that society. Like when one typically thinks of a little girl, they think of the color pink and dolls whereas a boy should play with trucks and etc. None of those things really represent what it means to be a boy or a girl, but is strongly associated with it because of the gender roles. However, with gender roles being a social construct, there is truly is no absolute facets that define masculinity or femininity so people should do what pleases them.

 

Re: "Gender is a social construct" when it comes to transpeople but gay is "biologica

Well gender IS a social construct, but I don't see how the invalidates the innate, biological need to transition of trans people.

Gender is a social construct because everything we associate with "male" or "female" genders was artificially constructed by human beings. Human beings decided that pink dresses are "female" while loose blue jeans are "male". Human beings decided that liking sports is a "male" activity while liking to get your nails done is a "female" activity. These ideas have no basis in biology.

(If anything, biology would dictate that men should wear dresses and skirts, since men have extra parts down there that need room to breathe.)

Further evidence of gender being a social construct is how widely ideas about what constitute a gender vary across time and culture. In Europe in the Middle Ages and Renaissance through the Enlightenment it was common for men to get all dolled up in fancy dresses and long powdered wigs. Look at Louis XIV. The idea that men should dress simply in trousers and a plain shirt and have short hair only came around in the 20th century. Meanwhile if you go to other countries you'll see that other cultures have completely different ideas about what "male" gender norms are and what "female" gender norms are.

Even something like names- there is no biological basis for the idea that some names are for men and other names are for women.

However the fact that gender is a social construct doesn't make it any less of a reality in the world we live in. I'd compare belief in gender to belief in God, another social construct, but even if there is no god, the majority of the population believe in it, and thus religion plays a major role in society. The majority of the population believe in gender, and therefore it plays a major role in society.

Since the majority of the population believe in gender, a trans person has to adhere to the expected gender norms in order to be accepted as the gender they know in their brain that they are. In order to be accepted by society as female, a MtF trans person has to adhere to expected gender norms of what a female should look, dress, and act like.

If in some far off future world, the social construct of gender were to be abolished, then if you said you were female, you would be accepted as female no matter how you chose to dress or what your name was.

So again, I don't think saying that gender is a social construct invalidates the innate biological need for a trans person to physically transition. If gender as a social construct were to cease to exist, it would just make it easier for trans people: if you told someone you are a female, you are a female, it doesn't matter what sort of gender norms you conform to.

The existence of gender makes it harder since, in order to be accepted as a female, you will have to act and dress and live your life in a certain narrow way in order to convince people to accept you as a female.

Of the trans women I know from my LGBT center, all of them conform strictly to female gender norms; they wear their hair long and styled by a professional, always wear dresses or skirts, wear earrings and lots of jewelry, always have their nails long and painted, always done up heavily in makeup, eyeliner, eyeshadow. They all adhere far more strictly to female gender norms than cis women do. That's all perfectly fine if that's who they really are. But from speaking to them, I realized that they do that because that's what they have to do in order to be accepted by society as women. A cis woman can wear her hair short and prefer blue jeans and a t-shirt and be into other 'masculine' things, without people doubting she is a woman. But a trans woman has to work much harder in order to be accepted as female, and is squeezed into an even more narrow gender norm-conformity box than cis people are.

So I think you will see, that gender is a social construct, and if it were to be abolished as a widespread belief, trans people would be much better off, not at all invalidated. Without gender, you would be able to go up to a person and tell them you are female, and that is all they need to know to believe that you are female, rather than have gender norms force you to use gender norm visual cues (like dresses and makeup and jewelry) to prove to them that you are female.

 

Re: "Gender is a social construct" when it comes to transpeople but gay is "biologica

Yeah, the phrasing irks me too. I mean, I can get behind the whole "gender roles are social constructs" because, hell, gender roles are pretty fucking stupid and arbitrary anyway.

However, I refuse to believe that my gender is as simply defined as the color of the shirt I'm wearing or what music I'm currently listening to. There is a biological basis to gender- but by that same token, it's not my sex that defines my gender but something innate that says "Gee, I feel less anxious and dysphoric when I'm recognized as male."

I think the problem is, when we say gender is purely a social construct, we tend to rigidly define the roles and constructs associated with gender. Like "Well, if you prefer masculine activities, you're probably a boy." "You like pink? Girl!" Which leaves no room for comfort, whether a binary person happens to fall to one side of the spectrum over another (and comfortably identifies as one gender over another) or a genderqueer person is told they're binary because their interests are as well.

Shoot me if I'm rambling. I've been a bit stir crazy.

 

Re: "Gender is a social construct" when it comes to transpeople but gay is "biologica

"I'm not going to comment." She said as she commented.

 

Re: "Gender is a social construct" when it comes to transpeople but gay is "biologica

Yes, gender roles are a social construct, as well as the perception of gender, but it needn't invalidate trans people, gender dysphoria, and the need to medically as well as socially transition to live in sanity.

Gender can apply to various concepts. There are roles that cultural makes up for a gender, and these roles can range from organically forming themselves to roles that are arbitrary and perhaps even repressive for either binary gender. There is gender as expressed in the physical body, and there is gender in terms of one's self-sense, which seems more intrinsic than 'manufactured'. So on and so forth.

 

Re: "Gender is a social construct" when it comes to transpeople but gay is "biologica

But what is gender beyond the socially constructed norms and expectations associated with it?

There is no doubt there is a biological basis to what you feel in your brain and your heart that you are. If you say you are female, that means you want to be recognized as female. If your body is male, you will want to physically transition to a female body.

But after that, what more is there to being female? Everything else associated with it is a socially constructed gender norm: the need to change names, the need to change the way you dress and live your life. Those are necessities due to societal expectations, not biology.

 

Re: "Gender is a social construct" when it comes to transpeople but gay is "biologica

Yeah, and you could similarly argue that gender and the roles associated with it are rooted at least somewhat in biological differences between the sexes, and their roles in reproduction. I've known of plenty of societies that have room for those outside of the traditional binary model, but very few that were completely genderless, since people associate the two, and they usually live side-by-side.

Until the biological differences between biological males and females are completely eliminated, I think gender is always going to exist in some form or another. It probably won't happen during any of our lifetime (Sweden has been experimenting there, but it's geared more towards egalitarianism than anything else), so it's probably not even worth seriously considering as a valid possibility. We could only speculate how a transgender person would fare in a completely genderless world.

Ironically, there wasn't even a "gay identity" in the West until around the 19th century or so, nor were there organizations or a movement. It wasn't something were, but something you did, especially in private. Everyone was expected to be straight (with a few exceptions) and to marry, start a family, etc. A lot of the ideals and norms are heavily influenced by social constructs, as well. Not everyone who is into the same sex chooses to acknowledge it, or identify with a certain label or culture.

So yes, if we were all living in a place and time where the term and definition didn't even exist, we'd probably have a radically different view of ourselves, the world, and our place in society. What makes a person gay? Is it attraction to genitals, presentation, some combination of the above, either/or? I've known plenty of gay people whose opinion would vary dramatically when asked this question, leaving me to conclude that the label, identity, and culture itself is really more of a simplified catch-all for people with varying preferences.

I think some people are simply unnerved by what they don't understand, and in the case of transsexuals, they totally flip their black-and-white world upside down, and it's much easier to discredit them than to take their existence into consideration and modify your own outdated perspective in the process. When asked, plenty of gay men and lesbians said they were willing to give gay trans men and women a chance, proving that it's not just biological.

 

Re: "Gender is a social construct" when it comes to transpeople but gay is "biologica

Yes, gender is a social construct. But so is sexuality. I'd say that both are incomplete ideas we have based on a biological reality. I don't know why someone would feel compelled to break such a social construct if it weren't in their nature.

But that said, even if gender were a purely social construct, that doesn't mean it's any less real. Social constructs are what make us human. I've never heard anyone complain that language and democracy aren't "real" enough because they're social constructs.

 

Re: "Gender is a social construct" when it comes to transpeople but gay is "biologica

Both Aussie792 and the chercheur have made good and valid points. Gender is both biologically based and a social construct. If we look at history there are some serious traits that travel across time, society, and countries. Why then we must ask is this. Why are there some basic traits that travel where ever you see human beings? Could these be social expectations based on biological needs or traits of each gender? Id suggest its probable

 

Re: "Gender is a social construct" when it comes to transpeople but gay is "biologica

The desire to eat food is biologically based, but has many socially constructed elements to it. Those social elements do not prove that the desire to eat is not biological in nature.

I would tell your buddies that think that a trans person is just trying to fit into a socially constructed form that what makes a trans person feel the way they do is coming from the same biological basis as what makes a man gay. So by arguing against being trans as biological in nature they are effectively saying being gay is a choice.

 

Re: "Gender is a social construct" when it comes to transpeople but gay is "biologica

Well I can still dream of some far-off utopian anarchist paradise where the social construct of gender has been completely abolished.

The overwhelmingly majority of people believe in god, hence god exists to influence our society, even if he is only purely a social construct invented by humans. I view belief in gender the same way, as long as the overwhelming majority of the population believes in gender, it will continue to influence our society, even if it is entirely a social construct invented by humans. But again, I would like to dream of a world where belief in gender (and belief in god, for that matter) no longer existed.

As I've mentioned, I basically live my life as if I lived in that utopian genderless world. I don't view the way I dress or act as being "male" or "female" in any way.

Of course the harsh reality is that our society as a whole still strongly believes in gender, thus my living my life this way provokes confusion in the mind of the average person, and puts me at risk for strong hatred and even violence.

Failing to strictly conform to one side or the other of the gender binary unfortunately can really get one ostracized from and hated by mainstream society.

 

Re: "Gender is a social construct" when it comes to transpeople but gay is "biologica

Just so I am clear you think believing in gender is like believing in God? Are you talking about gender roles or gender as a biological reality? Because even though the word "gender" might encompass both of these I don't think it is correct to say that gender is just as imaginary as God.

 

Re: "Gender is a social construct" when it comes to transpeople but gay is "biologica

It seems like this is a semantics issue.

Sex = Biology. You are biologically male or female in terms of body structure and reproductive capacity. Or it is the act of recombining gametes to create genetically similar but non identical offspring.

Gender = a social construct dictating how the sexes "should" behave from actions, emotions, physical appearance, etc. Outside of a social context the word is meaningless.

Liking pink doesn't make you any less of a "man". Wanting to play football (American I'm referring to) doesn't mean you aren't a woman or "girly". Social constructs tell people what they should or shouldn't like and change with the times and social groups one is in.


Maybe I see things in a simpler way... But that's how I see this topic.

 

Re: "Gender is a social construct" when it comes to transpeople but gay is "biologica

Everyone is confusing gender and gender roles.

Sex: Your chromosomes and what you were born with between your legs. In short: male, female, and intersex. The biological stuff.

Gender: What's in your head. This can range from matching your physical sex all the way to feeling that you're the opposite sex and everything in between; this also includes those that feel that they're more than one gender. This is where transgenderism/overall dysphoria comes from since the outside doesn't match the inside and results in "does not compute".

Gender roles: what society expects you do do based on your perceived sex.