Thoughts about immigration? (potentially triggering)

In my English class, we were learning about immigration and Obama's immigration reform bill. This inspired me to create this thread. I understand that we have two sides to immigration, one supporting amnesty for undocumented immigrants and the other side doesn't, and I'm sure there's a gradient. So what are your thoughts about immigration?

For me personally, I'm part of the gradient. I used to be all for immigration amnesty until I learned about the financial burdens. I believe that undocumented immigrants should be automatically deported, unless they have a certain skill that could be useful for the U.S economy (e.g: translation, computers, teaching), pretty much a points-based system. Plus, undocumented workers may be subject to harsh working conditions since they aren't documented, putting their lives in danger. Plus, it's not fair for those who were patient in waiting for their chance to permanently live in the U.S.

Although I'm seriously not the most politically correct person, but I want to hear about everybody else's thoughts, especially for those living in Japan and Australia, where immigration laws are very stringent.

 

Without illegal immigrants, like some conservatives want to kick out of the country, we wouldn't have anyone to do the tough jobs that immigrants do in this country. I think we should give the ones with no problems citizenship, or make a pathway to citizenship for them.

 

Stringent is hardly the word when there are allegations of torture, deliberately withholding medical care (tampons are non-existent in detention centres and a woman was told that she shouldn't have gotten her hopes up when she miscarried after they refused her a doctor)

Anyway, immigration is very necessary. Not only for skilled workers but for humanitarian reasons, especially when the wealth and security of countries like Australia has come at the expense of countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan. Emigrants need to be able to flee to safe countries when there's a massive problem, and it's disgustingly selfish to refuse them. In Australia, it takes roughly 17 years to process a single application for asylum, but it takes a matter of weeks for a richer person to apply for a visa. It's deliberately built to punish people in poverty, and for that the instigators and supporters of harsh immigration policies deserve the most painful and regretful circle of Hell.

Immigration from poor countries to rich ones provides benefits, too. More consumers, a larger workforce, and an increase in industry to provide for the new population. After a generation or two, they provide new students and teachers and doctors, increase competition, and they provide a very credible push for change, which helps break the stagnation of relatively homogeneous/uni-cultural societies.

So in the short term, they bring a bit of strife and cause fear of change (generally a good thing with immigration), although they usually can be accommodated if only the host (or would-be-host) country lets them. In the long term they tend to be even more hard-working than the population that finally lets them in, as they tend to recognise their fortune, unlike the often entitled attitude of those who refuse them safety.

 

While I think there is quite a bit of truth to the issue that there would be jobs that would go undone if it weren't for illegal immigration - it is still a huge issue. Most of these people don't pay taxes however they take from the system. As a taxpayer I have a problem with this. While I was lucky to be born in this country I had to work for every cent I have earned.

Some sort of path to amnesty would be nice, but what happens to all the future illegal immigrants? We can't have an uncontrolled influx of immigrants into America. Not to mention the fact that it is not fair to those that do it legally.

Those that commit any sort of serious crime should be deported immediately - I'm sorry but if you can't play by the rules you shouldn't be here.

 

^And how much of your money goes into the military, intelligence, and corporate subsidies? Mostly unnecessary stuff that doesn't benefit you.

 

I'm all for it. I think that multiculturalism and international interdependence pave the path to peace amongst large countries.

And having grown up in a small village in England, with a population near enough to 100% English people, now being in a big city makes me appreciate the diversity. Funnily enough, it's back home where people complain loudly about multiculturalism, despite them living in a monocultural society.

And the financial aspect? I can't deny that some migrants bring a greater economic benefit than others, but I think it's really important for everyone to know that immigration to the UK as it stands currently (i.e., loads complain about it being 'uncontrolled' and 'a burden') brings a fiscal benefit.

 

I feel like there needs to be a better way than what we have. The system that's in place now makes it too difficult. If people want to come here and work, they should be able to do so as long as they abide by our laws and regulations. They should be taxed just like everyone else and contribute positively to our society. If they are committing violent crimes, of course they should be deported. As long as they are here to improve our society, their lives, and not be a burden, we should welcome them with open arms.

 

I not in support of immigration people broke the law by coming over here illeagally. They by all right should be sent back to the country they came from this country needs people who are skilled or have a trade. We don't need a bunch of unskilled workers got plenty of them now, go to Mexico and enter illeagally guess what u go to jail. Got try to enter in China , u will disappear in a labor camp, US OS the only place u come here and get free welfare education and medical cate. What's up with that!

 

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You're right on here for the most part. While our military budget is bloated it's not like that money just vanishes. Much of it gets funneled into the private sector. Take my dad for example who has numerous military contracts at his work - they wouldn't be as successful as a business with out them. They employee 200+ people. This is true for many people.

 

This is where my libertarian side kicks in...

I feel as if immigrants should only be nationalized in a country if they can EARN their citizenship. Immigration in America is both, a good thing and a bad thing. If they can earn citizenship through standard tests and tasks, then they should be welcomed. After all, this country was founded by immigrants. However, we shouldn't be so open doors as to allow people who can't contribute. Tax payers would end up paying for colleges of immigrants who just decide to come in the country. The reason immigration would be a good thing is because of extra labor that can boost the economy. But if people just come into the country to freeload of citizens, then what is the point? Lives would be better for them, but it would be holding back citizens. I'm not saying all immigrants are like this, I just feel as if only the ones who can prove they are worthy should be granted citizenship.

Currently, the only way to become a citizen is a marry a citizen or to be born in the country. There's actually a lot of illegal immigrants who are smart with their money and can be able to live within their means once they obtain a job. Some can actually afford houses because of their hard work. THEY should be granted immigrants. My mom's cousin came from Greece with little money and the hopes of living in America. He got a job and earned his way into an apartment to live in. He eventually found a wife and got citizenship. Personally, I feel he could of earned his citizenship because he was a very hard worker trying to thrive like the rest of us.

We must not treat immigrants any more or any less than American citizens. If they wish to experience the American dream, then they should prove that they are capable of living in America just as citizens live. America isn't a nursery for people who struggle in their own country. (With the exception of war times or genocide).

 

Exactly.

I'm all for cutting the defense budget, but let's not pretend that it's not pretty damn beneficial to a lot of people. Big difference between paying taxes for illegal immigrants who don't pay in, and paying into a bloated military budget that creates a ton of jobs.

 

So is it fair to say that your view is that we should deport undocumented immigrants unless they have a skill we can exploit?

 

And also invades other countries causing refugees. Not exactly a good solution. Are you saying that it's more important to care for the wallets of military contractors than the lives of the victims of America's wars?

For example, Afghan refugees come to places like Australia, France, Germany, and Britain needing safety from the invasions and instability that's been going on since the 19th century (intensified in the 80's, when the Soviets annexed it and those lovely American military industries gave the Taliban enormous weapon stockpiles) for European and then American benefit. And you don't think that we have a moral obligation to help the people we've screwed over for a quick buck and political influence?

 

A points-based system is very helpful in countries like England and Canada. Sometimes, we deport undocumented immigrants that have a great skill that could have been useful for the United States. Some of them could even work as diplomats. However, we may never know because we just deported them.

---------- Post added 1st Feb 2014 at 03:28 PM ----------

Actually, undocumented workers already pay taxes through sales tax and income tax, they just don't get the benefits of being a tax-paying "legal" citizen like social security. I think you're talking about the ones who rely on unemployment benefits.

 

I am against border controls.

 

And if there's a threshold for no taxation due to low income in America, I'm sure most wouldn't even qualify.

And why is it a problem? It's caused by governments refusing to recognise the status of immigrants in the first place. If your government would grant citizenship without punitive measures to scare previously undocumented immigrants off, you can tax them like any other citizen. The argument is basically "we don't give them citizenship because they don't pay tax because we don't give citizenship." Not exactly the strongest argument I've heard.

 

"A points-based system is very helpful in countries like England"

Ahahahaha. hahaha. ha. Our immigration system is absolutely bloody awful, what are you on about xD

Personally, I can't abide border regulation. But for the moment it is necessary.

In an ideal world, nobody would have border control. People could come and go as they please. They would still have to work and at appreciate the culture of the place they go to but otherwise work where you will. Unfortunately unless EVERYONE did it and a whole lot of other things changed it would be a disaster, so for now I guess I prefer a points system.

Note: When I say appreciate the culture, I mean to go there and learn about it and to appreciate how things are done. I don't want people to assimilate perfectly, I like the variety we have and I like knowing about other peoples cultural heritage. I like that being shared, but at the same time I don't want people swarming over to places and replacing the existing culture with a new one...we did enough of that while everyone and his dog was clamoring for more chunks of earth to stick a flag in to...

 

I am torn on this issue.

If there is an undocumented worker in America, let's not forget that an employer is exploiting the system by not paying the businesses' share of payroll and other taxes. The economics dictate that the risk for the employer is less than the benefits of breaking employment laws. Any "mooching" by immigrants might well be irrelevant if we were to include the money that does not flow to the coffers of the Treasury by the complicity of American citizens willingly cheating the system. It takes two to tango.

Further, in a state like Texas, even undocumented immigrants pay 8.25% sales tax on most everything they buy (food and medicine excepted). Sales tax is one of the primary sources of income for the state government, so let's not say they don't pay any taxes.

If you want to talk about "moochers" by so called "anchor babies" and want to do something about it, try repealing the 14th Amendment first. But please don't say that it was meant originally for slaves to gain their citizenship. That may have been the case, but it is a bedrock principle in the US' jus soli doctrine.

On the other, I believe that the illegal immigration in the United States exacerbates organized crime in the United States-Mexico border. You have the situation akin to the Prohibition Era where organized criminal elements took over the alcoholic distribution system and gained power and wealth through that. Similarly, organized cartels in the border are now responsible for the crossing over of immigrants and as such we have criminal elements (of the murder, extortion and drug trafficking kind) that are taking over the human trafficking which leads to issues that will bring more conflict to our border region.

I also understand that immigration is the source for growth in this country because it's what keeps our population growing and population growth is one good way to increase the economy. Plus, many stable countries seem to have negative, zero, or very low population growth by native citizens. Plus, we need to ensure that we have a fair and good system of allowing immigration on humanitarian needs.

I am torn because many of these immigrants really want to better their lives and come to where it is better. And, in a way, isn't that what we all were at one point, either in the last decades or centuries?

This is a very delicate topic that requires thoughtful study rather than meaningless rhetoric (by part of some politicians).

 

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breath free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

Pretty much my opinion.