Bi women & lesbian culture

Maybe using the word dyke is appropriation. I don't think using the terms butch and femme is. Any gender and sexuality can be butch or femme.

 

But the word 'dyke' is a slur. Calling yourself a dyke makes about as much sense as a gay man calling himself a fag. It's degrading.

I've heard bi/pan/poly/label-less women use the word 'queer', although I'd prefer just saying bi/pan/poly/label-less if I were them.

 

Using these words is not cultural appropriation. If you can pin down for me an exact way that every single lesbian uses those words and make a coherent definition that fits for everyone, then I would be surprised.

Anyone can use any label they like, anything that fits. It's when people start policing the limits of identity labels like dyke and butch/femme that problems arise. If lesbians and "lesbian culture" has a problem with bi/poly/pan women using "their" labels, then that's a problem and needs to be addressed.

There are only a couple exceptions to this and those are identities like "two-spirit". Non-native people using this is cultural appropriation because that is part of someone's culture that is stripped of its own significance and history by people not of that culture. It has a coherent definition that belongs to a culture, it shouldn't be remade and claimed by people who aren't of that culture and don't really understand it.

And yes, dyke has been used by many to hurt the women who love women or women who don't meet feminine gender roles in the past, but if you want to use it for yourself, that's fine, it's a part of the reclamation of the word. Some people may still find it offensive, and that's okay, they don't have to use it and can tell people not to use it as a slur, but if it's being used honestly as an identity label for one's own person then that shouldn't be taken away from them.

tl;dr no one can should tell you who you are or how you are allowed to express your own identity, with words or otherwise. and if someone tries to tell you that your sexual or gender identity words or expressions are not okay because they personally don't care for them, tell them they're being an ass.

 

I like to think of the word Dyke as a power word. A strong, amazonian type of woman loving woman. The term does not offend me as long as I am using it myself, and someone is not using it to attempt to make me feel bad about being gay. I think you can call yourself anything, and anyone who says "hey, this is our word" has a problem. It's what you feel comfortable with in your skin.

Femme and Butch are sexes, within lesbianism. They are not the sexuality itself. If someone asks me "are you a lesbian" for instance, I would say "no, I am Femme." it is more than just lesbian to me, third gender. I am Femme 1st, and lesbian 2nd. Not all lesbians are butch or femme, either. Some are just lesbian, meaning they are women loving women.

 

That makes me want to scream.
Very few things in the world make me want to physically hit people, but transmisogyny is one of those things.

Anyway my point is, I am all around hella against identity policing. Like, no one should feel like they can tell other people who they are. Especially (one would think) amongst other people of gender and sexual minorities, because isn't that what people hate about heteronormative culture? The policing of our sexual and gendered existence?

So, yeah. Use dyke if you want is I guess what I'm saying :lol:

 

How so? How does referring to myself and other women loving women as an ugly word take power away from bigots? I think our extreme overuse of the word dyke is a big reason why we aren't taken as seriously as gay men are. Do you think gay men would be taken seriously if they called each other fags?

That's what I was trying to imply when I said, "I'd prefer just to say bi/pan/poly/label-less if I were them."

---------- Post added 28th Apr 2014 at 09:16 PM ----------

Are you trying to say that lesbians aren't real women, but non-binaries? Dressing or acting a certain way doesn't automatically make you any less of a women. When butch lesbians dress in men's clothing, cut their hair short, and ride motorcycles, that's called their gender expression (your way of showing your femininity/masculinity), NOT their gender identity. The same goes towards femmine lesbians. A lesbian isn't any less of a woman than a hetrosexual woman, no matter what she looks like or what clothes she wears!

The word lesbian refers to a sexuality, NOT a gender identity. Please DO NOT confuse gender identity with lesbianism.

 

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Well, that escalated quickly! And it irritated me quickly, also.

If you spent time attempting to read hate and judgement of lesbians into my post, you seriously misunderstood what I was saying. Why in Hell would you even think that my post is attempting to say lesbians are 'not real women', Seriously? Because they choose the term lesbian instead of Femme or Butch? That is sad that you or anyone else would even think that. It is DIFFERENT, not less than...

I will attempt to clarify.......I am Queer Femme. I love women, but I am NOT just a lesbian. Lesbians are women loving women, Butch and femme are used as designations/genders(we are not just bigendered) within the LGBT community. Butches and Femmes can be Bi, they can be Poly, they can be Trans, etc. It is NOT just lesbians that use these descriptors.

How you dress or look has NOTHING TO DO with if you are butch or femme. You can dress and look feminine, and/or masculine and people will say you look butch or femme, but this does not make you these identities. It is an energy that you pick up on people. This is why the younger generations seem to think a person can be butch one day and femme the next. It does not work like that. Some gals do not identify as either butch or femme, and that is ok. That does not mean they are not good enough, and it does not mean that I, or any of us that identify as such, are using the wrong terminology because that is how you understand it.

Butches and femmes also come in several flavors if you would like to know: Femmes/ High, power, stone, bluejean, soft, tomboi, sporty, babygirl.....

Butches/ Hard, Stone, Soft, OFOS(old fashioned old school), sporty, dapper, daddy.....

It is a culture within a culture. Please see below. I hope this helps with clarification.

To all of the kick ass, beautiful fierce femmes out there... - YouTube

 

I still call myself a femme even though I'm bisexual. I don't know, it just never really occurred to me that those were exclusive lesbian words so yeah. I have to disagree with dyke though, I really dislike that word ><

 

THIS is what bothered me so much in the first place.
Lesbians are NOT bigendered, PERIOD. Please get that through your head.

I'm well aware that people who use the butch/femme labels don't have to be lesbian, that not what pissed me off.

People consider me a chapstick because I'm into anime/manga/videogames/other nerdy things and I don't wear makeup, but I don't look nor act butchy.

I act pretty femme for the most part, but I wish my girly-ness showed more on the outside. I don't wear makeup because my mother never taught me how to apply it. Plus, I have extremely sensitive skin, so I can't wear anything that isn't hypo-allergenic. I wish I could wear makeup...

I guess I could also be considered bluejean since I usually wear casual clothes.

<3

 

Instead of just quoting quotes, I will quote the whole thing.(easier that way)

I believe we are saying the same thing but not the same way. We are using different terminology. When I was saying 'bigendered' I think you took it to mean that I was saying you can ONLY be Butch or Femme, if you are within a strict parameter. That is not what I was attempting to get across. My post was not meant to cause anyone to wonder who they are, or say one person or type is better than another. Only to lend an insight into my own Queerness and how I present my Femmey-ness.

There are many Femmes that don't wear makeup. My youngest is 15, and she is a Tomboi Femme. She is into Manga, Games and is very very Nerdy also.(we all are at my house)She wears no makeup. There is never any way someone would ever think her manly and not girly enough. So, your outward presentation does not determine your energy. Neither do your hobbies, your job choice or your friends. I don't always wear makeup, I have shorter hair, and I fix things(I am a Rehab Therapist), I wear flannel, I grill out often....but I am 100% Femme. My wife swears up and down that no one could ever take me for a butch, and she is one, so she would know! LOL I think some of the misunderstanding is that people have this idea that a High Femme is the only kind, and that simply is not true. These are the girls that are considered stereotypically Femme, with makeup, long hair and long nails.

Also, now days, there is no mentoring going on of our young LGBT community. It used to be that you would go to the gay bar, after you are ready to come out, and some Femmes would take you under their wing(which happened to me) and kinda guide you into being a Femme, answer questions and the like. No one does that now and it leads to problems and confusion mostly of "Am I really Femme? Am I Femme enough? Am I Femme if I fix the mower, gutters on the house and/or cut my hair? how about if I don't wear makeup or shave?" Having other Femmes for fellowship is important for support and feeling comfortable in yourself.

I wish I still had my PDF file about Butch and Femme and how they view themselves. I believe most of these studies and articles can be found in Women and Cultural studies if you are interested. You can also Google.