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Why marriage?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Shadowed One, May 16, 2014.

  1. Shadowed One

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    Hey everyone.

    I've been thinking about this for a very long time, I just have gotten nowhere on my own. So I have to ask.

    I realise this might a little like stirring the hornets nest, but please understand that I'm only here searching for information.

    I will likely have more questions, and may sound a little argumentative. But that's just me trying find out more information. I'm not trying to offend or to start a fight, and if this does lead there, I promise to go silent.

    I would kindly ask that you leave me and my opinions out of this. I'm here looking for information and trying to educate myself. Which is a lot more than I can say about most people.

    Anyway, onto the topic at hand:


    Why do LBGT want to get married?

    I don't think it's about the equal rights and the legal implications. I believe if you proposed to somebody an alternate word or system, something with all of the same legal and social implications, something I can't even think of a word for, I believe that most LGBT would still not accept it. It's about the word "marriage". Until it's called that, LGBT people won't be happy.

    But why specifically that word? What's so important about it?

    Is it because of the social implications that it would mean? It's not that you want to actually get married, but that you want to be allowed to get married. It is that "right to marriage" that implies, reveals, and in a way enforces acceptance.

    I believe that is what it is all about: acceptance.

    Am I wrong? Is there more to it than that? Please educate me.
     
  2. FireSmoke

    FireSmoke Guest

    Why do people of colour want to get married?
    Why do albinos want to get married?
    Why do women want to get married?
    Why do men want to get married?

    Just because we all want to love and we all deserve to have the same rights. It's very simple.
     
  3. valerie247

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    You could just as easily ask any straight person why they want to get married? What's so important about the word "married" to them?
     
  4. Hexagon

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    All sorts of reasons. Mostly, I think its because they love their partner. But separate is never equal. Civil partnerships are not a symbol of equality when one type of people are barred from doing something another type enjoys freely. As someone who doesn't plan on getting married, but still supports and campaigns for marriage for all, yes, it is about acceptance. Its also about freedom. The importance about the word is that it has been denied to us. Why shouldn't we fight for it?
     
  5. Choirboy

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    Acceptance certainly does have something to do with it, no doubt. Or maybe being "taken seriously" is a better way to put it. Having spent decades in the closet, I have seem the unvarnished attitudes that people take towards gay couples, and it's often not a positive thing. There are a lot of jokes, particularly with gay men, about how short-lived their relationships are, and how meaningless. Being able to legally marry the person you love would go a long way towards having same-sex relationships taken seriously by straight people. It wouldn't cure everything, obviously, but I feel like seeing legally married gay couples would put our relationships on the same level as any other couple.

    For me, having spent 20 years in a straight marriage, there are other components too. I went into my marriage with misguided but good intentions, and fully planned on making it a lifetime commitment, even though I had feelings for guys that I really hoped and believed would just go away after a few years of marriage to a woman. Obviously that doesn't happen, but I didn't know that at the time. A lot of my marriage was a sham and a delusion, not on purpose but true nonetheless, and despite that, it had (and still has) legal status and respectability and gravitas for no other reason that it's a marriage.

    Now I'm in a relationship with a guy that is far more real and tangible and deep than anything I ever had with my wife. The fact that, once our marriages and obligations are behind us, we can't get legally married in our state is very frustrating. We already have a far closer emotional bond with each other than we ever had with our wives, but we can't get legally married because we're both guys? Really? I want us to be recognizable and identifiable as a legal couple. Realistically, if you saw us together it would be pretty obvious that we're together anyhow, so why shouldn't we have the same legal rights and respectability that we did with our wives?
     
  6. Shadowed One

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    Thank you for the replies. Very illuminating.


    Okay, hypothetical question:

    What if they removed all legal rights and meaning from marriage?

    By that, I mean, we take marriage and remove it from the legal and political system altogether. LGBT aren't missing out on anything. On all levels, marriage is an informal social process with no legal, but definite social implications. The effects are entirely socially contained. The entire process occurs within communities. In this way, it becomes like any other ritual: a bar mitzvah, or baptism, or even like a birthday.

    Both hetero and LGBT couples could marry in this scenario, as neither are legally binding, and neither would receive special benefits. Essentially equality.

    This would mean that marriage for both hetero and LGBT couples mean the same thing: nothing.


    I like to think this makes a lot of sense. After all: marriage is an ancient and barbarian tradition.
     
  7. Caillin

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    Even if marriage benefits were taken away im sure many and I mean many LGTB people would still love to get married to someone they love. People want to get married they want to have equal rights as well it is their right to get married so it is about equality in ways but hell so was interracial marriage but do not forget the equality part is being able to get married not getting married itself. Also if it they took all the rights out of marrige how the flunk would someone be able to see their partner in the hospital when their partner is in critical condition :confused:
     
    #7 Caillin, May 16, 2014
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
  8. FireSmoke

    FireSmoke Guest


    I dunno if I understood well. Do you mean that marriage, both for straight folks and gay one, hasn't really sense? So, for this it deserves to be removed from the law, both for straights and gays?

    If so, I disagree. Marriage is only a paper, okay, but it will become a "barbarian tradition" if a person loves another one ONLY because is married with him/her. No, love has to exist, married or not married.

    My opinion on marriage is this: I love my woman, we are together for a lot of time, we love each other, we go to live together, our couple become like a married one because I'm beginning to act like an husband and she's beginning to act like a wife.
    So, let's put this on a paper, then!! But our love has to exist, not because now there's that paper, but because we love each other.
     
  9. Browncoat

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    I would be perfectly fine with that, if not see it as preferable to enabling the right to marry an individual regardless of one's sex. In fact, it's something I've advocated for in the past.

    Unfortunately, though, it will never happen. And so the only alternative in my mind is to allow legal marriage and the full allotment of rights resulting from this to any pair of individuals regardless of their sex.

    In terms of "calling it something else," I agree with Hexagon - separate is never equal.



    He's only proposing that marriage be completely removed from the State. He didn't necessarily give a reason beyond it being an alternative means to equality and marriage being an "outdated tradition."
     
    #9 Browncoat, May 16, 2014
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
  10. greatwhale

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    Great question!

    First off, whether gay or straight, what is and was the purpose of marriage? If you think about it, there is nothing tangible that takes place upon marriage that wouldn't take place without it.

    Marriage is above all a public entity. We equate marriage with love today as if these two words were destined forever to be together, but, in fact, love = marriage is a relatively recent phenomenon, say 200 years old, or so. Before that it was a legal partnership that came with a set of rules about exclusivity, sharing of assets and procreation. Even today, there are arranged marriages (India for example) and these marriages often work surprisingly well. Of course it all depends on what you mean by "work".

    A public entity such as the social construct we call "marriage" assumes that there is a community within which it exists. In other words there is an assumed and long-term relationship between the couple and the wider community. The question "what will the people say?" about your marriage (difficulties, joys or whatever) used to be an important question.

    Today, the assumption of a community has been, by and large, replaced by the state (a development which I find appalling, but that is for another debate). Here in my home province of Quebec, the total collapse of the Catholic church since the sixties has sent birth rates plummeting and has produced individuals who are unaffiliated with anything other than their jobs and close circle of friends. Many, many couples in this province do not bother to marry, they have kids, etc. Nevertheless, there have been legal developments of late that have clarified the legal protections afforded married couples that common-law couples do not enjoy.

    To call marriage barbaric is perhaps going a little far; those legal protections are important, whether it be inheritance, the sharing of assets or powers of attorney when illness strikes, marriage makes a difference (notice I didn't say a word about love).

    I think it is important for LGBT folk to fight for the right to marry because it normalizes us and affords us equal protections under the law. Moreover, I think it has a salutory effect on gay relationships in that they may also be taken seriously not only by the outside world but also by our own selves. There are so many laments I have heard in the past year (since I came out to myself) about the temporariness and "flightiness" of gay relationships, perhaps marriage or even the possibility of marriage will make such relationships a little more...acceptable.

    This is not to say that something will not be lost with the advent of LGBT marriage. We may find that the existing networks, or "family" of alternative relationships may diminish, in other words, I would consider it a loss if people went into marriages to isolate themselves from a wider community (whether LGBT or not). Marriage, indeed any committed relationship makes no sense in the absence of community...
     
    #10 greatwhale, May 16, 2014
    Last edited: May 16, 2014
  11. Gates

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    ^ This. And because when I marry, she will be my wife and I, her husband. We will not be "partners" bc we do not run a business together. No word that devalues my family will be accepted. It's like asking LGBTQ people to call their children "pets" instead just bc of their identity. It is immoral and illogical, and never to be accepted as some conciliatory move. Ever.
     
  12. Shadowed One

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    Thank you everyone, and especially greatwhale, for your responses.

    It has helped me a lot. I definitely don't feel like I'm guessing anymore. That said, I so still feel like I might have a pretty small "sample". But this is definitely better than nothing.

    Thank you.


    Edit: and yes, that's exactly what I meant, Browncoat. Thanks for saying it better than I could myself.
     
  13. BryanM

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    Well the 1100+ benefits a marriage brings is nice. Also, equality it a good social justice to fight for.
     
  14. AwesomGaytheist

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    It's a major life milestone, a symbol of the love and commitment that two people have for each other. And so yes, I want to get married, whether it's with my current boyfriend or someone else down the road that life bring my way.
     
  15. Aussie792

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    Marriage provides a great deal of help in order to pool resources, economise with a collected, higher income, and provides a sort of security in other ways. If you lose your job or can't work, then you have a partner to support you. It's harder to raise children on your own, and marriage pools even the resource of time.

    Marriage is often necessary for those on lower incomes; most can't afford to support themselves and kids on their own. The ability to live without marriage is a luxury.

    Now put that into terms of queer people. More of us are in poverty, such as those kicked out at a young age, more prone to mental health issues etc. From a purely financial viewpoint, a lot of us need marriage for stability. Now add the factor of being legitimate people with real feelings, the desire for kids someone might not be able to afford on their own, and marriage seems the perfect solution.

    Of course, I think it should be made easier to live without marriage, but in the meantime, it's probably the best solution to many problems.
     
  16. itsonlyrelative

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    What I am interpreting your question to be is: Why does the LGBT community specifically want to have the right to "marriage" and why wouldn't they ever just be satisfied with having an institution with all of the same luxuries by a different name?

    Here is my response:

    By giving the LGBT community a separate institution, then you are treating us like less than equals. When was the right given to you to decide that you could with hold the institution of marriage from us just because you have one opinion of the word's definition while we have another?

    I have six siblings, but I am the only one could not marry the one they loved in our home state. Who got to decide that? If you don't want a same-sex marriage don't have one.

    All these other terms for marriages sound like uncomfortable business deals, and I don't want to get down on one knee one day and ask, "darling will you enter a civil partnership with me?"
     
  17. Fallingdown7

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    Why do straight people want to get married?

    If you allow gay people to have something similar to 'marriage' but call it something different, that's not equal rights; It's still treating us as inferior. We already have civil unions, but for us It's not enough because It's not as recognized nor does it come with all the financial benefits.

    Marriage for me is a huge milestone. It's a part of commitment; I want to have a wife and share a life with her. I want to visit her when she's sick and dying in the hospital and share parenting rights and benefits with her.

    I don't understand why changing the definition to include gay people is such a big deal. It's already been changed before. Marriage used to be polygamous, or between a 30 year old man and a 12 year old girl, but all of those for example became wrong. It's also seen as a religious ceremony, but atheists can get married, so why not gay people?

    I mean yeah, the concept itself used to be barbaric, but things have changed, so it should be open to everyone if it continues.
     
  18. Beetle

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    There's a lot of other benefits that go along with it. Where a same sex marriage isn't legal and recognized, someone can't visit their partner in the hospital, even if they're dying. They can't be buried with each other. They're not entitled leave from work if their partner dies. They can't take medical leave for their sick kids or spouse. They can't cover their families when it comes to health insurance. They don't inherit anything if a spouse dies and there's no will. They're denied spousal benefits under Social Security. They don't get tax benefits that you get with marriage. There's over 1100 of these benefits that are denied to same sex couples where marriage is illegal.
     
  19. OGS

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    To be honest if they really came up with some other status and afforded it all of the legal protections afforded marriage and called it something else I'd be fine with it. In theory I am opposed to marriage per se. I think the idea of the state putting its stamp of approval on some relationships is just kinda creepy. But I would like, for instance, for my partner to be able to inherit my retirement accounts without them going into required minimum distribution--and all 1138 rights that accrue to married people in the US so I suppose unless something changes we will probably eventually get married.
     
  20. Personally i was a bit meh about the gay marriage debate here in the UK. We already had civil partnerships, which gave all the same legal rights as marriage - and I kinda liked it that we could make our own institution. We've been told by churches/society to fcuk off all these years, why now should we want to buy in to marriage? Rights are what is important, not symbolism. Also, I didn't like the slightly moralising tone of the conservative leader who pushed it through 'I'm not in favour of gay marriage despite being a conservative, i'm in favour of gay marriage BECAUSE i'm a conservative'.

    2 things changed my mind;

    1. Realising that in the long term, it will help kids/parents come to terms with being gay as it 'normalises' gay relationships along the model of *ideal* straight relationships. So, yes in a way it is about encouraging acceptance.
    2. While I don't really care, other lgbt people.do. Who am I to deny them that?

    Still, I'd trade gay marriage for a few more important things - like a concerted and thorough push to eradicate homophobia in schools right across the UK. Zero tolerance. That means lgbt bullying support in EVERY school (a dedicated teacher), comprehensive gay-inclusive sex education on the syllabus, HPV jabs available to boys who want them, fast-track priority counselling/therapy available to all LGBT people and dedicated NHS LGBT GP services.

    That's my wish list. Gay marriage is cheap, though!
     
    #20 uniqueusername3, May 16, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: May 16, 2014