Science Continues to Support "Born This Way"

Look at this wonderful poem-esque comment I found on the article:

Spoiler

Hey there little guy, what's got you so mad? Met a kid who's got a dad and a dad? But what makes you so angry, so pissed-in a fury? It's just two people who love each other surely! "But it's wrong; it isn't right. It's disgusting: a rotten sight!" You're filled with hate! You wanna pick a fight? But, before you do, maybe you should take a little insight.

What you have is an "opinion." It isn't wrong, but it isn't right. It isn't bad, but it isn't great. It's one that kind of only fills you with hate. I respect your belief, though let me be brief: what your head has planned isn't the law of the land. Being gay is a sin according to who? According to you. But ah, there's that word! What's the word? It's "you." Not me, not her, not them, or not even this shoe-it's you! I have an opinion, you have an opinion, my friend has an opinion. In fact...I think everyone has an opinion! But if we ran on opinions, nothing would get done, so can we stick to the facts and act as one? People are gonna be gay no matter what you say, so if that makes you mad, then ask yourself, "why is that okay?"

I'm not telling you to change your mind; in fact, I actually care more about my own behind! But don't go on and pick a fight, just because you think it's a right. Go maybe eat a sandwich, or read a book. But please, oh please, don't be someone else's rook.

I'm honestly leaning more towards the theory that no one is really born LGBT, but sexuality-less and gender-less. Still don't support the 'you choose to be LGBT' thing, however.

I suppose my opinion/comment is legitimately unnecessary, but I liked the poem thing and thought I would quote it. Haha.

Thanks for posting the article, greatwhale.

 

Well at no point did I sit down and go "let's be pansexual sounds like fun"

 

This issue always gets on my nerves.

Pretty much everyone on both sides of the argument fail to see the point:

IT DOESN'T MATTER.

Homosexuality wouldn't suddenly be wrong if every gay person in the world admitted to having made a choice between men and women — or not made the choice, as would be the case with bisexuals.

 

... Good point.

EDIT: Actually, I think it would matter. It just wouldn't be wrong, in my opinion.

Anti-LGBT people are using the 'you choose it' statement to shame LGBT people, while LGBT people are using the 'you're born this way' statement to fight back.

If it's an actual proven fact that you can choose to be LGBT or that you're born this way, people will start to... 'stir shit up,' if you'll excuse my language.

EDIT: Well, people are already 'stirring shit up,' but you know what I mean.

 

THis ^

So tired of people debating this because I shouldn't have to justify myself based on whether I chose it or not. I'm not hurting anyone regardless of whether I was born this way or not and I deserve respect regardless. /:soapbox:

 

Actually, I'm not sure what you mean by stirring shit up.

Isn't it pretty much already a pretty well-documented fact that there is homosexual behaviour in nature in other species as well?

Freud hypothesised that humans are innately bisexual, but later on during development become either hetero- or homosexual. Freud was wrong about a lot of things, but this sounds like a valid theory on sexual development. Though, this is just my opinion and I'm no expert on the subject.

But the point still stands: this is irrelevant.
Seriously, next time someone throws the nature card on the table, just ask them why they think it matters whether it is natural or not.
Out of all the behaviour that is natural, and out of all the things we do that are unnatural, why is the natural aspect of sexuality so important?
What is natural about technology?
Clothes?
Agriculture?
Money?
Politics?
Air travel?
Photography?
Writing?
Mercy?

Civilisation is the end of the natural state.

 

Not really an expert on the subject either, or can I carry out a decent debate, but what I mean is that even if it doesn't matter, people will continue to treat it as if it is.

I don't think I'm actually disagreeing with you, as I actually do see where you're coming from and think it's a legitimate and good point.

I wasn't really talking about how it was unnatural. I was just talking about how people are using the 'born this way' thing to defend themselves from anti-LGBT people.

Yes, homosexuality shouldn't be viewed as immoral even if it was a choice, but if it was truly a choice, then how many more people will be pressured to 'change'?

And, just as a sort of off-topic comment, I think everything is natural because I believe that humans are actually apart of nature. Many animals, like potter wasps or beavers, can construct things, and some animals, like otters, can actually use tools. So I don't believe that our constructing and tool-using is truly unnatural.

Unless, of course, you consider 'natural' as 'anything without human influence' or something like that.

I'm not really trying to defend my point here, because it was a weak point to begin with. I'm just sharing my thoughts.

 

The issue over whether or not gayness is decided at birth isn't so much for us... it's so the homophobes might relax by any measurable amount and quit making life harder for people. For LGBT readers of the articles, they're almost literally preaching to the choir.

 

Okay, I get what you mean now. Thanks

Basically my point is that you can't argue false logic with equally fallacious logic.
Those who argue about it being unnatural don't rely solely on this specific argument. Their belief that it is wrong doesn't solely rely on this thought, and finding definitive proof of either case, nature or choice, won't sway them to think otherwise.
If it was finally decided, once and for all, that homosexuality were in fact a 100% natural occurrence, the people who have a negative outlook on homosexuality would fight for this natural urge to be suppressed.
On the contrary, if it was shown to be 100% up to choice, these people, like you said, would be horrified about how many more people would be also tempted to make the choice, and how it would deprecate morality. So yeah, I agree that it does matter, but my point is that it shouldn't. Advocates continuing to argue this point doesn't help the cause.

Arguing with anti-gay people, in general, is reasonably useless. This puts it eloquently. But if you're going to argue, you could at least render some of their arguments invalid by appealing to higher reasoning instead of condescending to the opponent's level of rhetoric.

 

And the LGBT community continues to define its worth based on whether scientists tell us we're 'natural' or not.

Some defence, "I'm only gay because I can't help it, I'd be like you if I could."

 

Thanks for posting this, gw.

---------- Post added 9th Jul 2014 at 03:22 PM ----------

Right. Whenever this argument comes up, I immediately think of this logic. I also think of how early it is observed in some kids.

 

i also can't debate because my vocabulary is terrible; i'm sorry

Definitely see what you mean now. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

And, haha, that picture made me grin. Nice. :lol:

 

I think we need to focus less on this. We have more important battles to fight, and they don't seem desperately likely to change. From a personal point of view, I'd be infinitely more likely to be convinced by an argument that demonstrated x behaviour isn't immoral, rather than x behaviour isn't voluntary. Given an assumed position that x behaviour is immoral, thinking it is involuntary would only make me try to cure it or persuade sufferers not to engage in it.

 

tend to go with the it doesn't matter option these days ? I believe if you are happy the way you are then so be it . when I was growing up trying to come to terms with being gay I thought about why am i this why am not that it made me quit ill because I just didnt understand .

 

I think we should just have a new message I love the born this way message but how about this for a age We're born this way and we love it
Like I always say I'm a lesbian and loving it and I'm not gonna change for anyone . So why should I try to be something I'm not or feel ashamed .

 

Obviously nobody here would argue that same sex attraction, or anything LGBT, would be wrong were it not for the fact that it's not a choice.

That it isn't a choice has been the most important fact that has helped drive gay rights though, I don't see how that could be disputed. People are much more comfortable to judge decisions than they are innate qualities.

If something is a choice then that leaves open the possibility of debate on whether that choice is right or wrong. If something isn't a choice then it can't be wrong, that's the point.

 

The problem with this is that morality is a relative concept. There is no steadfast ruling of what constitutes moral vs. immoral and therefore it's up to people's interpretations. I understand and can agree somewhat with your argument that calling something involuntary may make dissenters want to "cure" it. But I think there are different degrees and varieties of homophobia, and some people can be persuaded to change their perspective much more easily than others, especially if they are faced with scientific evidence that homosexuality is a natural occurrence and is innate within a person rather than a willful behavior the person is engaging in to make them uncomfortable (because you know, the world revolves around them, right?) There will always be people who refuse to acknowledge scientific findings (creationists, anyone?) or who will push you to change who you are regardless of the reason for your preferences, and unfortunately arguing with people like that is impossible because they literally HAVE no argument, only their own hateful opinions.

 

I agree with this this is why the born this way message is so important .
I just don't like the Macklemore message where it's I can't change even if I try part but the born the way message had nothing to do with that it was just saying that's how we are and how we were born and we're not gonna change for anyone and we have a right to be accepted and have the same rights as heterosexuals because we are both human beings. I don't get why people are linking Macklemore song with born this way .
Have people not gotten the message of the born the way song it means be who you are and don't feel any shame for it and your not less than anyone because of how you were born . I think that's what it means . I get why some people don't like it but I think they are misinterpreting it .

 

I think I've taken this sort of argument. We can't choose, and so that fact should help the progression of LGBT rights.

Unfortunately, that only goes so far... It appears that there are people out there who'd conceded that sexual orientation can't change, but, even so, saying LGBT isn't "normal" and so we don't deserve marriage rights. Or think about a priest who says: "It's fine to be gay. Just as long as you never act on it!"

Still, I do think the "it's not a choice" argument has probably helped a lot.