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View Poll Results: Should Teachers be armed?
No 96 85.71%
Yes 7 6.25%
Other 9 8.04%
Voters: 112. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 5th Sep 2014, 05:27 PM   #81
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallingdown7 View Post
More guns don't solve gun violence, they increase gun violence. It's literally common sense.
Seriously I feel like everyone that does not accept this as a fundamental rule with just about anything (more capacity to do x means more x happens) is living in a dream world.
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 05:29 PM   #82
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

What happens when a violent student steals weapons from the teachers?
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 05:30 PM   #83
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallingdown7 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly82 View Post

You've both missed the argument. When you ban guns, only law abiding citizens are disarmed. If a criminal is going to break the law, he's not going to care about gun laws.

If the criminal is armed and comes up against a law abiding citizen who is following the law, who wins?

---------- Post added 5th Sep 2014 at 07:22 PM ----------



I see what you're saying, but then the only people left with all the guns is the government. All we need to do is look at the 20th century to see what happens when governments confiscate all the arms.
More guns don't solve gun violence, they increase gun violence. It's literally common sense. Even a good person can have a bad day where they snap, and many unstable teenagers use guns to commit suicide.

And other countries that have higher gun regulation have lower gun crime. How about that?

Americans are fucking stupid and I'm ashamed to be in this country.
Well it seems like common sense, but the data suggest otherwise.

Quote:
Houston is similar to Chicago in socioeconomic factors like population, density, and racial segregation. Both cities are plagued with drugs and human trafficking. Chicago and Houston are Americas third and fourth most populous cities, respectively, each with between 2 and 3 million residents. Non-whites make up 50-60 percent of the population in both places, and the poverty levels in each city are almost identical at just under 30 percent. Yet in 2012, there were only 217 murders in Houston  less than half of Chicagos death toll. A major difference between the two cities: Houston has very few gun laws. Criminals there know that many citizens are well armed for self-protection.More Gun Laws Do Not Mean Less Crime | Ben Swann Truth In Media
Murder and homicide rates before and after gun bans - Crime Prevention Research Center

---------- Post added 5th Sep 2014 at 07:31 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai LD View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallingdown7 View Post
More guns don't solve gun violence, they increase gun violence. It's literally common sense.
Seriously I feel like everyone that does not accept this as a fundamental rule with just about anything (more capacity to do x means more x happens) is living in a dream world.
The dream world is one where emotions overrule raw data.
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 05:32 PM   #84
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

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Originally Posted by Holly82 View Post
...but I'm still required to pay (at the point of a gun) taxes to fund schools for other people's kids.
*cues violins*

Huh, oddly I've also paid taxes so 'other people's kids' could go to school, and I was always happy that I was able to help them have such opportunities. I've always thought it a selfish argument that it's such a burden to try to provide a basic education.

And oddly, during all that time, none of the tax collection methods involved guns. But maybe things are different in states where they have more guns. Here, they just deduct it from my check, or collect sales tax when I buy things, instead of sending around tax-collectors with guns.

I just don't get this attack on education, and all this homeschooling talk from parents who want to raise their kids in some kind of bubble. All it seems to breed is more and more division.
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 05:35 PM   #85
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallingdown7 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly82 View Post

You've both missed the argument. When you ban guns, only law abiding citizens are disarmed. If a criminal is going to break the law, he's not going to care about gun laws.

If the criminal is armed and comes up against a law abiding citizen who is following the law, who wins?

---------- Post added 5th Sep 2014 at 07:22 PM ----------



I see what you're saying, but then the only people left with all the guns is the government. All we need to do is look at the 20th century to see what happens when governments confiscate all the arms.
More guns don't solve gun violence, they increase gun violence. It's literally common sense. Even a good person can have a bad day where they snap, and many unstable teenagers use guns to commit suicide.

And other countries that have higher gun regulation have lower gun crime. How about that?

Americans can be so dense sometimes and I'm ashamed to be in this country. -sigh-
Fallingdown7, I agree with everything you have written 100%.
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 05:35 PM   #86
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly82 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallingdown7 View Post

More guns don't solve gun violence, they increase gun violence. It's literally common sense. Even a good person can have a bad day where they snap, and many unstable teenagers use guns to commit suicide.

And other countries that have higher gun regulation have lower gun crime. How about that?

Americans are fucking stupid and I'm ashamed to be in this country.
Well it seems like common sense, but the data suggest otherwise.

Quote:
Houston is similar to Chicago in socioeconomic factors like population, density, and racial segregation. Both cities are plagued with drugs and human trafficking. Chicago and Houston are America’s third and fourth most populous cities, respectively, each with between 2 and 3 million residents. Non-whites make up 50-60 percent of the population in both places, and the poverty levels in each city are almost identical at just under 30 percent. Yet in 2012, there were only 217 murders in Houston — less than half of Chicago’s death toll. A major difference between the two cities: Houston has very few gun laws. Criminals there know that many citizens are well armed for self-protection.More Gun Laws Do Not Mean Less Crime | Ben Swann Truth In Media
Murder and homicide rates before and after gun bans - Crime Prevention Research Center
You are literally forgetting that even if a law-abiding citizen has a gun, it doesn't necessarily mean they are safe. We can't walk around with guns everywhere and we have to leave them locked up to begin with; so 90% of the time a criminal is going to shoot you without you being able to do much about it anyway. What are you going to do; take a gun with you everywhere, to your job, the movies, the park? Even by gun laws intact, It's still illegal and criminals don't follow laws as you say....
Also, forgot to add this, but even if a teacher had a gun at school and there was a school shooting, there's also no guarantee they could get the gun out in time to defend the students anyway. There's a larger chance that a teacher having a gun would get innocent students killed by either the teacher snapping or a student stealing it compared to it being used to save someone.

Secondly, law-abiding citizens can snap and even healthy human beings are capable of spur of the moment crimes. My Dad for example, is law-abiding and has guns for self-defense, but in the past he was very emotionally abusive to my family and was a violent drunk. Logically, he would never hurt anyone, but if he has a bad day, forgets to take his meds and gets into his drunk state again, my family could end up dead and we'd have nothing to defend ourselves by. This is just an example as I highly doubt it would happen, but the point is it could.

And killers will kill regardless of what weapon we have out, but by making guns available, we make it easier to kill, and kill in high amounts. If a killer were to attack by a knife or a baseball bat for example; it would be easier to defend yourself and survive even without being armed. Guns are literally a 'no shot chance' kind of weapon.

Last edited by Fallingdown7; 5th Sep 2014 at 05:40 PM..
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 05:37 PM   #87
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskyPup View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly82 View Post
...but I'm still required to pay (at the point of a gun) taxes to fund schools for other people's kids.
*cues violins*

Huh, oddly I've also paid taxes so 'other people's kids' could go to school, and I was always happy that I was able to help them have such opportunities. I've always thought it a selfish argument that it's such a burden to try to provide a basic education.

And oddly, during all that time, none of the tax collections methods involved guns.

I just don't get this attack on education, and all this homeschooling talk from parents who want to raise their kids in some kind of bubble.
You don't see the gun.... ok. Let's point it out.

- You're sitting on your couch not doing anything.
- Gov says "Pay taxes"
- You say "No thanks"
- Gov says "Remember to pay taxes"
- You say "I don't want to pay taxes"
- Gov says "You've been fined for not paying your taxes"
- You say "I don't recognize your authority to take my money and therefore will not pay your fine.
- Gov says "Appear in court"
- You say "I do not have to. So no thanks"
- Gov sends an "Officer of the Law" to your home where you never left your couch
- Officer says "Open up!"
- You say "No thanks"
- Officer busts down your door
- You defend your home
- Officer tries to kidnap you (called an arrest)
- You resist the kidnapping
- Officer pulls his weapon and fires

Please tell me where I can voluntarily opt out of taxes?
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 05:38 PM   #88
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly82 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallingdown7 View Post

More guns don't solve gun violence, they increase gun violence. It's literally common sense. Even a good person can have a bad day where they snap, and many unstable teenagers use guns to commit suicide.

And other countries that have higher gun regulation have lower gun crime. How about that?

Americans are fucking stupid and I'm ashamed to be in this country.
Well it seems like common sense, but the data suggest otherwise.



Murder and homicide rates before and after gun bans - Crime Prevention Research Center

---------- Post added 5th Sep 2014 at 07:31 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai LD View Post
Seriously I feel like everyone that does not accept this as a fundamental rule with just about anything (more capacity to do x means more x happens) is living in a dream world.
The dream world is one where emotions overrule raw data.
oops. Homicide | Harvard Injury Control Research Center | Harvard School of Public Health
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 05:44 PM   #89
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly82 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskyPup View Post

*cues violins*

Huh, oddly I've also paid taxes so 'other people's kids' could go to school, and I was always happy that I was able to help them have such opportunities. I've always thought it a selfish argument that it's such a burden to try to provide a basic education.

And oddly, during all that time, none of the tax collections methods involved guns.

I just don't get this attack on education, and all this homeschooling talk from parents who want to raise their kids in some kind of bubble.
You don't see the gun.... ok. Let's point it out.

- You're sitting on your couch not doing anything.
- Gov says "Pay taxes"
- You say "No thanks"
- Gov says "Remember to pay taxes"
- You say "I don't want to pay taxes"
- Gov says "You've been fined for not paying your taxes"
- You say "I don't recognize your authority to take my money and therefore will not pay your fine.
- Gov says "Appear in court"
- You say "I do not have to. So no thanks"
- Gov sends an "Officer of the Law" to your home where you never left your couch
- Officer says "Open up!"
- You say "No thanks"
- Officer busts down your door
- You defend your home
- Officer tries to kidnap you (called an arrest)
- You resist the kidnapping
- Officer pulls his weapon and fires

Please tell me where I can voluntarily opt out of taxes?
You can opt out, but you have to face the consequences. If you don't like them, try to change the laws, or move to another country where you can.

Also, in this example, you've made the decision to become violent while being arrested, which is only pacing yourself in danger.

I get that you don't think you have to pay taxes so kids can go to school. Fine. But I find all of this a bit dramatic.
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 05:48 PM   #90
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fallingdown7 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly82 View Post

Well it seems like common sense, but the data suggest otherwise.



Murder and homicide rates before and after gun bans - Crime Prevention Research Center
You are literally forgetting that even if a law-abiding citizen has a gun, it doesn't necessarily mean they are safe. We can't walk around with guns everywhere and we have to leave them locked up to begin with; so 90% of the time a criminal is going to shoot you without you being able to do much about it anyway. What are you going to do; take a gun with you everywhere, to your job, the movies, the park? Even by gun laws intact, It's still illegal and criminals don't follow laws as you say....

Secondly, law-abiding citizens can snap and even healthy human beings are capable of spur of the moment crimes. My Dad for example, is law-abiding and has guns for self-defense, but in the past he was very emotionally abusive to my family and was a violent drunk. Logically, he would never hurt anyone, but if he has a bad day, forgets to take his meds and gets into his drunk state again, my family could end up dead and we'd have nothing to defend ourselves by. This is just an example as I highly doubt it would happen, but the point is it could.

And killers will kill regardless of what weapon we have out, but by making guns available, we make it easier to kill, and kill in high amounts. If a killer were to attack by a knife or a baseball bat for example; it would be easier to defend yourself and survive even without being armed. Guns are literally a 'no shot chance' kind of weapon.
So instead of reading the articles I linked you came back at me with these self-contradictory and emotional arguments?

1) You're right. Having a gun does not equal perfect safety. What it does means is that you're safer. In reality, nothing is safe anywhere in this whole universe. There are only degrees of safety and being able to defend yourself raises your safety level.

2) We can walk around with guns everywhere except for where the government and private businesses ban them. In the case of private businesses, if they say no guns allowed, then they should provide their own security. If they say no guns and don't provide security then by patronizing that business I acknowledge the risk I am taking.

3) 90% of the time. Nice statistic, where did you get it? Source? And how do you know you wouldn't be able to do anything about it? In Texas, you don't need a permit to keep a gun concealed in your vehicle.

4) Yes, anything could happen. That is no reason to point a gun at everyone and say you can't have a gun.

5) Your last point is completely self-contradictory because you already know that killers won't care about gun laws. What's he going to say "I WANT YOU DEAD! But I better respect the gun laws." ??? Please.


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Old 5th Sep 2014, 05:51 PM   #91
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

Imagine living somewhere where even education was deemed something not worth collecting and spending taxes on

Imagine being someone who believed that to be ideal

Fuck everyone else I'm alright
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 05:53 PM   #92
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

Quote:
Originally Posted by HuskyPup View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly82 View Post

You don't see the gun.... ok. Let's point it out.

- You're sitting on your couch not doing anything.
- Gov says "Pay taxes"
- You say "No thanks"
- Gov says "Remember to pay taxes"
- You say "I don't want to pay taxes"
- Gov says "You've been fined for not paying your taxes"
- You say "I don't recognize your authority to take my money and therefore will not pay your fine.
- Gov says "Appear in court"
- You say "I do not have to. So no thanks"
- Gov sends an "Officer of the Law" to your home where you never left your couch
- Officer says "Open up!"
- You say "No thanks"
- Officer busts down your door
- You defend your home
- Officer tries to kidnap you (called an arrest)
- You resist the kidnapping
- Officer pulls his weapon and fires

Please tell me where I can voluntarily opt out of taxes?
You can opt out, but you have to face the consequences. If you don't like them, try to change the laws, or move to another country where you can.

Also, in this example, you've made the decision to become violent while being arrested, which is only pacing yourself in danger.

I get that you don't think you have to pay taxes so kids can go to school. Fine. But I find all of this a bit dramatic.
You cannot opt out. If my choice is to pay or die, that is not a choice. That is called violent coercion. And the whole "If you don't like it, then move" argument is silly. Have you noticed that every scrap of land on this planet has a government ruling over it? So basically you're saying, if you don't like this tax farm, you can move to this other tax farm. No thanks, I don't want to live on a tax farm at all.

No, the violence began when the officer kicked down the door of my private residence. How could you have missed that? Don't you see how you have been so propagandized to see government agents as above natural moral law? The government doesn't own my money. But they can initiate violence to steal it away from me. Defending yourself against a thief and kidnapper is not initiating violence.

Morality doesn't change because you put on a uniform.

You find it dramatic. Well, it's reality.
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 05:56 PM   #93
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

Holly, it is a historical fact that the most well-armed nations also fight and kill the most. I would be interested in more than a correlation of data about citizens being armed to a reduction in gun-related death and injury. I suspect we are defining the terms behind our arguments differently.
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 05:57 PM   #94
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidSwords View Post
Imagine living somewhere where even education was deemed something not worth collecting and spending taxes on

Imagine being someone who believed that to be ideal

Fuck everyone else I'm alright
Right, because organizations like the Khan academy who are educating 10s of millions of people for free wouldn't exist. It isn't about being selfish. It's about being responsible. It's about finding a better cheaper way of educating people. Innovation doesn't occur when force is involved.

And again, what you gave was not an argument.

---------- Post added 5th Sep 2014 at 07:59 PM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai LD View Post
Holly, it is a historical fact that the most well-armed nations also fight and kill the most. I would be interested in more than a correlation of data about citizens being armed to a reduction in gun-related death and injury. I suspect we are defining the terms behind our arguments differently.
But now you've changed the scope from person-to-person to nation-to-nation. That is a different subject.

But my adherence to the Non Aggression Principle still states that the government shouldn't have guns. Therefore, in a society that has no gun laws, you also wouldn't have warmongers who could use trillions in tax money to eradicate other nations.
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 06:08 PM   #95
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly82 View Post

[/COLOR]
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmittedFlunky View Post

You certainly arent wrong!

The thing is that in the UK guns are Illegal enough that should I see someone walking down the street holding one I can safely assume that he/she probably isnt sposed to have it and that would be when most people would call the police. In the UK we take guns very seriously and a nice part of that is that we have some very well trained armed response officers who do carry automatic firearms.

While I would love to own an assault rifle I am happy to go without one providing no one else can have one either.
I see what you're saying, but then the only people left with all the guns is the government. All we need to do is look at the 20th century to see what happens when governments confiscate all the arms.
You are right, In the UK only the government really has guns. The reason this works in the UK is because our government, despite being a bunch of whitless wonders, are at least all well educated individuals who wont suddenly try to seize power, we have a semi-compitent government capiable of keeping the peace who have no interest in killing people.

Besides, Our entire armed forces are technically still under control of the Queen, She is the Head of the British armed forces and it is to the Royal faimily that they swear their oath. It is also the queen who needs to declare war for Britain even if she needs parliamentary permission to do it.

Our system is one where should a dictator ever rise, the Queen can disband parliament and there are laws in place which work the other way around so we are pretty much safe.
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 06:14 PM   #96
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly82 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidSwords View Post
Imagine living somewhere where even education was deemed something not worth collecting and spending taxes on

Imagine being someone who believed that to be ideal

Fuck everyone else I'm alright
Right, because organizations like the Khan academy who are educating 10s of millions of people for free wouldn't exist. It isn't about being selfish. It's about being responsible. It's about finding a better cheaper way of educating people. Innovation doesn't occur when force is involved.

And again, what you gave was not an argument.
Ha, no I suppose it wasn't. Fortunately though, imo, opinions like yours don't exist where I live so investing in this argument feels a bit pointless to me. Just wanted to make the point that the idea of no taxes and no state funded education is pretty fucking messed up, imo

Yeah, don't let kids go to school give them a computer and tell them to learn, I'm sure that will work for all kids in the real world

It seems you believe in zero taxes which is basically a rejection of any sort of organised collectivism and for an every man for himself I'm alright thanks type society which put in practice would leave a vast number of people significantly worse off so that people like you can save a bit of money on your tax bill which would be of trivial benefit in comparison. It sounds pretty selfish to me

But yeah, I'm out, bedtime
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 06:37 PM   #97
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiquidSwords View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly82 View Post

Right, because organizations like the Khan academy who are educating 10s of millions of people for free wouldn't exist. It isn't about being selfish. It's about being responsible. It's about finding a better cheaper way of educating people. Innovation doesn't occur when force is involved.

And again, what you gave was not an argument.
Ha, no I suppose it wasn't. Fortunately though, imo, opinions like yours don't exist where I live so investing in this argument feels a bit pointless to me. Just wanted to make the point that the idea of no taxes and no state funded education is pretty fucking messed up, imo

Yeah, don't let kids go to school give them a computer and tell them to learn, I'm sure that will work for all kids in the real world

It seems you believe in zero taxes which is basically a rejection of any sort of organised collectivism and for an every man for himself I'm alright thanks type society which put in practice would leave a vast number of people significantly worse off so that people like you can save a bit of money on your tax bill which would be of trivial benefit in comparison. It sounds pretty selfish to me

But yeah, I'm out, bedtime
After the Civil War in America everything was decimated. There was very little government control, and yet up until WW1, these years saw the greatest economic development in the nation's history.

And you strawmaned me by saying without government I must believe in no social organization, which I don't.

You see personal responsibility as selfish. I see using violence to solve problems as immoral, narcissistic, and psychotic.

---------- Post added 5th Sep 2014 at 08:38 PM ----------

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Originally Posted by OmittedFlunky View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly82 View Post

[/COLOR]

I see what you're saying, but then the only people left with all the guns is the government. All we need to do is look at the 20th century to see what happens when governments confiscate all the arms.
You are right, In the UK only the government really has guns. The reason this works in the UK is because our government, despite being a bunch of whitless wonders, are at least all well educated individuals who wont suddenly try to seize power, we have a semi-compitent government capiable of keeping the peace who have no interest in killing people.

Besides, Our entire armed forces are technically still under control of the Queen, She is the Head of the British armed forces and it is to the Royal faimily that they swear their oath. It is also the queen who needs to declare war for Britain even if she needs parliamentary permission to do it.

Our system is one where should a dictator ever rise, the Queen can disband parliament and there are laws in place which work the other way around so we are pretty much safe.
Sounds like you still live under a dictator.
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 07:01 PM   #98
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

Somebody quoted me a few pages ago saying I don't know if armed resistance would mean fewer deaths from a school shooting. But the trends indicate that the shooter, upon facing the police, almost instantly turns the gun on himself. School shooters aren't out to battle equal or greater opponents; they are out to impose their will on helpless victims, and when they see someone else with a gun and their spree falls through, it's game over. Look at any school shooting and you'll see that trend; they don't shoot at police.

And one more nitpick: Somebody said "how can you be sure they could get to it in time?" I guess it depends on the manner of armament, but to say that somebody carrying one concealed** on their person can't get it out in time? I hope that danger time is less than like two seconds, because that is a GENEROUS estimate of the draw time of a skilled shooter. It wouldn't be "oh let me go to my locked case while someone's blasting away." It would be "clothing away from holster, gun out."

And suggesting nonlethal weapons is, no offense intended, equally ignorant. Even the cops don't meet lethal force with tasers. If somebody has a gun, they have more/bigger guns.

Source: I am a police officer. Brand new rookie still , but it's safe to say I know more about law enforcement than most outside the field. And while I do agree with the UK's philosophy for their own country, it just doesn't work that way in America. The bad guys have guns and getting rid of our own will not convince them to do the same. Nor would that even be ideal, but that's another story.

**footnote that my entire opinion rests on the idea of optional concealed carry. Having teachers either carry openly or simply keep a gun somewhere in the classroom are both terrible ideas.

Last edited by Argentwing; 5th Sep 2014 at 07:05 PM..
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 07:10 PM   #99
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

I'm not that worried about teachers threatening kids with guns, but just that we would consider giving school faculty guns. WTF is the world coming to? And to people who think this would solve anything, teachers would not leap into action and save their students if something happened. They would freeze or worse, accidentally shoot someone. There's quite a lot of research about how people respond in a firefight, and someone with little training or experience would not be able to react well.
And seriously, what kind of idea is "guns are a problem? Give more people guns!"?

---------- Post added 5th Sep 2014 at 10:13 PM ----------

Also, I of course support gun regulations, and I don't see it as "getting rid of our guns". People can still have guns that are much more than adequate to protect themselves, I would just like to see some restrictions on automatic assault rifles and background checks on any gun purchase. I have no idea why we still let people buy guns without checking to see if they have a mental condition or criminal history.

Last edited by Dakeli27; 5th Sep 2014 at 07:14 PM..
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Old 5th Sep 2014, 07:23 PM   #100
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Re: Should Teachers Be Armed

There already is a restriction on automatic rifles, aka machine guns. You need a federal firearms license, and pay a transfer tax on each transfer.
The scary looking guns you are talking about are NOT automatic. They require the trigger to be pulled for each round to fire. That is what the assault weapon ban that expired a few years ago was, a ban on scary looking guns. It had nothing to do with the threat those guns posed over others.
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