Do you think internalized misogyny plays any role at all in a person being FTM?

Well, I appreciate you wondering about it and not wanting to be misogynist. It demonstrates a level of anti-sexist commitment and self-awareness on your part. So that's good.

I would just want to caution you though, that the whole "misogyny playing a role in FtM people" is a very hurtful trope and argument made very stridently by Sheila Jeffreys, a virulently hateful political opponent of ours.

I think that what makes people trans is wanting to have a different body configuration than they have, because their gender is wrong. I don't think it's "real" women wanting to get male privilege by transitioning to male, or "real" men wanting to "have access to women" by transitioning to female. (Although those are both arguments Jeffreys and other trans-denialist feminists make.)

As I posted just yesterday I think, people are trying to kill us. So, I don't really think we should be worried about anything other than being authentic and staying safe. Being trans should have no political implications. Our bodies have been turned into political battlegrounds enough without us also having to deal with the self-doubt of "do I have all the 'appropriate' gender egalitarian reasons for being me?"

I correspond with a gay trans man from here on a fairly regular basis, and he's got very strong anti-sexist commitments. Internalized misogyny is completely bizarre, and the thought never entered my mind. I think that if it had, I would be a terrible friend.

 

Well, no. I mean, I would hope that's not why someone's transitioning, because there's nothing wrong with being a woman. The fact is, I just don't identify as one. But I've definitely been accused of having internalized misogyny, especially since I'm basically gay too...

I think the main thing for a lot of trans guys starting out to keep in mind is that just because you're trying to fit in and pass doesn't mean you need to be sexist or rude to women. I mean, be a gentlemen for Pete's sake. People tend to appreciate it.

 

If you're talking about transsexualism, then that's not how medical conditions work. However, it might be a reason for someone to mistakenly believe that they are trans when they're not.
(If you're talking about gender-queers or non-binaries or something like that, I can't say.)

I don't think "internalized misogyny" applies to men though. How can a guy be sexist against a woman that is himself? This would only apply to someone who is questioning.

 

I wouldn't call it misogyny. I think there's a distinction between gender roles and body identity that often gets overlooked.

I have a dislike of traditional gender roles (both male and female), and was raised to believe that I didn't have to follow them if I didn't want to. I never felt as forced into it as some people do. I couldn't bear the thought of taking on a traditional gender role, male or female, and I wouldn't want a romantic partner who does.

I've had people think that I'm that way because I was abused, but I don't think that anymore. It's just the way I am.

For a long time I disliked men and women who followed "traditional" gender roles, mainly because I didn't understand why anyone would voluntarily want to go along with that kind of thing. It's actually since I've started to accept my queerness that I've also learned to accept that many people actually like their gender roles, and don't want to change them. So in a way, I'm actually less "misogynist" now that I'm no longer trying to fit in.

As for the body dysmorphia ... I have nothing against the female form. I find it aesthetically pleasing, and even sexy ... I just don't like having one myself.

 

My own experience of gender says no. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't think real trans feelings stem from it.

 

@Tai The point was that a man is not a woman, and "internalized misogyny " would imply that a trans man is a woman.

 

What a dreadful thought for someone to have. I've seen that logic before, and it worries me. That entirely delegitimises the entire existence of trans men, because it implies that they're women.

Yes, some trans men are misogynistic and rather awful, but that doesn't change the fact that even they aren't men because they don't want to be women. They're men because they're men.

 

I'm glad to see that we agree on this.

 

Hi. I'm not a trans man, but think my post on detransition stories might have played a part in this thread's creation. Anyway, yeah: these are woman, usually lesbian, who say they've jumped through all the hoops: binding, dysphoria, hormones, surgery, legal changes, etc. but decided it didn't feel right later down the road, so went back to living as women. They seem to be more troubled by anyone who is gender-variant deciding to go the transgender route, and see the transgender movement as being opposed to a few radical feminist ideas.

It goes without saying that they've been shunned by most trans communities for speaking out.

The issue is that they tend to be as extreme in their views as much as the trans folk they criticize. Sure, there could be a few who decide they're happier as women, but I doubt they're the majority, or even a significant part of the overall population. I don't see hormones or surgery as "harmful" or "destructive", if they're a part of a person's journey to self-discovery and happiness. Plenty would be non-functioning or dead if it weren't for them!

Think instead of that woman who transitioned in Europe, and became suicidal later, only because her mother would constantly put her down and wished she had been born a boy. If sexism and transphobia didn't exist, maybe there would be less misunderstandings, regrets, and tensions.