Rememberance Day? (May be offensive)

I will always find the celebration and commemoration of soldiers offensive while no such honour is given to the victims of war, occupation, and other injustices.

Soldiers are not inherently evil people. But military forces around the world have a disproportionate share of evils.

I don't want the abolition of rememberance. I want the acknowledgement of all victims of war and the condemnation of its perpetrators to be routine and placed just as highly as or more highly than (depending on the severity of each issue) the sacrifice and dedication of soldiers.

 

What people fail to acknowledge when topics such as this come up is that wars are waged by the powers at hand. It is the innocent lives of endless youth who are forced to fight and sacrifice their lives within them. Paying respect to veterans of war isn't about supporting the cause for which they fought or glorifying times of war, rather acknowledging that without the efforts of those who volunteered more civilians would have been forced to take up arms and taking the time to remember those who hadn't and were forced regardless are recognize and appreciated.

On that topic, I couldn't agree more.

 

Well mostly becase these people thought that there lives were worth less than other people's freedom also becase by remembering this kind of stuff and trying to keep it fresh in our memory then we won't me as likely to repeat or selfs and have a ww3 wereas if we did not remember this than we would be way more likey to repeat and have WW3

 

Not all of the veterans joined the military because they wanted to. Some were drafted, some couldn't find a job so they joined the army to provide for their families, some were pressured into by their families(this happens especially in families where there is a long tradition of military service)

War is awful, but that doesn't make those serving in the war evil. Soldiers do not get to pick and choose which wars to fight and why. Many soldiers have given their life for their country and the least we could do is take one day out of our lives to honor them.

Also what other ways were there for dealing with Nazi Germany? There were attempts at peace which Germany ignored. Are countries not supposed to defend themselves when being invaded?

 

History didn't start at the point of no return.

 

Where did I even remotely suggest it did?

 

Exactly. I personally don't want to see drafts reinstated. Some people have to go to war whether or not they agree with it or not; but they join so we don't have to. And some give their lives in war, maybe in a war they DIDN'T agree with. But they sacrifice for US. Of course we should honor our veterans. I always will, personally.

 

You have tragically misinterpreted my point. All that I was saying is that there were long-term options before Hitler came to power that would have ensured a stable, non-militant Germany, but they weren't taken.

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The actions of Nazi soldiers were the actions of soldiers as much as Poland's and France's soldiers were. The mass-rapes that occurred thanks to the oh so brave Allied conscripts in occupied lands, especially Germany and Poland, are not given such thought, nor are the staggering casualties of colonialism respected in the same way.

The commemoration of the deaths of soldiers is unhealthy while we ignore their victims.

There is a difference between being forced into war and voluntary soldiers, but conscripts don't get a free ticket to brutalise; those who do are still malicious soldiers as any other who does the same.

 

Your questions are well-posed. I just have a few thoughts to add to this.

1. We have a worrying tendency to glorify the state vicariously through veterans.
2. We do not, in any case, substantially support a requisite quality of life for our veterans.
3. US foreign policy is pretty much catastrophic, and has been since like, World War I.
4. World War II was the only just war the US has fought in the past century.
5. Although it was a just war, not all actions taken during the war were just. In particular, US firebombing of Japan was horrific, and in fact, conventional bombing of Japan was way, way worse than the nuclear attacks on Hiroshima or Nagasaki.
6. Fascism is such a toxic philosophy that it is encumbent on all of human kind to eradicate it with no limit of brutality whatsoever, provided that brutality is correctly directed.


All of what I have said above rests on my fairly simple theory of human rights, which is:

1. That human beings have a right to bodily security and reasonable means of economic provision, namely to housing, food, medical care, and the education necessary to do one's part to sustain the material conditions required to provide these guarantees.
2. Some people have a disagreement about the rights of humans, and they are quite mistaken.
3. Still unfortunately, defectors from humanity seek to impose suffering by force, contravening all reason. When this happens, we have no option but to oppose them in kind, by like amounts of force, correctly timed, and correctly directed.
4. In the absence of (3), (1) is more aspirational than descriptive. It therefore follows that nonviolence fucking sucks.

~ Adrienne

 

Generalizing soldiers as a whole as negative is offensive. There were good Nazis, Soviets, Viet Cong, etc. We remember the soldiers who served and for what many gave up. We aren't ignoring the wrongs that were committed, we aren't ignoring the senseless loss of life, but honoring the good that had been done. The fact that we don't have a memorial day for victims of war is sad and disappointing, but not a reason to also ignore our veterans.

This is a sensitive topic for my family since my mother's family has centuries of military service throughout many generations. Her brother was the last, and he killed himself after Vietnam. He experienced rough stuff according to his wife and how people treated Vietnam vets was disgusting.

It's also easy to look back and strategize on a war that's already been fought. Hindsight is always twenty twenty.

 

The soldiers who fought had no choice in the matter, the war needed to be fought and they were forced to give their lives, is that not worthy of remembrance? Do you think they all wanted to become killers?

And secondly, the peaceful options to stop nazi germany were exhausted before war started. There was no other option. It has been a while since I studied the topic, so I'd suggest you look up the steps to war and the policy of appeasement. There was no other option.

 

There isn't always an alternative to war. It's my experience that most war is unjust, but not all. World war two was one such war. Hitler wasn't going to be swayed by a few rounds at the negotiating table, and he was dead set on invading europe. What could anyone offer an invading army, but violent resistance? Or are you suggesting that someone should have assassinated him? It was tried. If it could have been done, great, but it isn't always possible.

On the rest, though, I would tend to agree with you.

 

I support the remembrance of those who cruelly had their lives cut short in the world wars, particularly those who were conscripted and had no choice but to fight.

However I do not particularly support "Remembrance Day", the Poppy Appeal or the "Remembrance Sunday" service for the following reasons:
1. I do think it ends up glorifying war (the services are undeniably "militarized"), or at least being a bit of a jingoistic exercise
2. It utterly fails to give full acknowledgment or remembrance to civilian causalities, casualties from other territories, conscientious objectors, or opposition soldiers (who in most cases were conscripted and indoctrinated by pro-war propaganda just like our own soldiers - mere pawns).
3. I dislike the pomp and ceremony of the services. To me it seems more time is spent on the pageantry of the day (hymns, meticulously laying various wreaths of poppies, processions) than on actually remembering the horrors of war. Its almost like "sanitizing" the affair - what does the queen putting some flowers on a slab of concrete have to do with a young lad dieing of gunshot wounds in a muddy flooded trench? How exactly does it help us to remember their sacrifice?
4. I dislike how poppies are forced on people, and how people are criticized for not wearing them (see my thread here). I've heard it called "poppy facism" and I do think in some ways thats a fair term - its gotten almost to the state of propaganda now. I flicked on Strictly Come Dancing and the XFactor on the weekend and every contestant, presenter and judge had ornate poppies built into their costumes - they are talent competitions for Christ's sake! Its overkill.
5. I think now that the numbers of living veterans from the World Wars are slowing declining, the focus of the appeal has moved towards soldiers from modern wars (Iraq/Afghanistan etc). I don't quite see them as the same thing. Today joining the army is a voluntary career choice, and with technology and the Internet people ultimately know what they are signing up for, the risks and the sort of wars they will be fighting. The risks and casualties are also far reduced to advancements in weaponry and medicine. Its certainly still a difficult and dangerous career, but I don't think you can quite equate it to the situation with the world wars. Do not get me wrong, I definitely think returning soldiers need appropriate support, health-care and pensions - I just do not buy into the whole "fighting for queen and country" in the "noblest career" BS.

 

I personally see Remembrance Day as a day to think about how horrible war really is and that unless we all remember how bad it was and vow to not go into fighting ever again unless there is a really good reason (lets not get into the politics of politicians sending people to war here I can't deal with it) because it takes everyone to reject war to stop war.

And for me, bottom line is - lots of people died during past conflicts, all too young, and its our job to try and stop as many casualties as possible. Look at WWI - there were KIDS (well 15/16 year olds) lying about their age because they thought war was going to be a great adventure... how wrong was that. Remembrance day might prevent that kind of propaganda from going viral ever again.

You do make a fair point here, though. And thanks for being respectful - I have friends with great uncles who died in wars etc. who can find this topic quite emotional.

 

I don't see it as showing it as something glory and good.. It is showing a sign of respect for those we have loved and those whom are still fighting for our freedom and so we can live in a world where we can access many different things, including the Internet which we are all using to converse now. I think showing respect to those who fought for us and still are is not a bad thing.. I look at things such as Remembrance Day and Anzac Day (which we have here and is recognized in NZ as well) as a day to remember and a day to think of those we lost and those still fighting and those who have loved ones in the armed forces.. It is not for me personally about glorifying a war or glamorizing it.. It is to pay tribute and show respect.. Wether you agree with the war or not.. We should all at least stand and respect those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice for our freedom.

 

That still happens I'm afraid, and I have a bit of a problem with it.

Here the army tends to visit 11-16 year olds in schools in poorer areas bringing with them climbing walls, inflatable obstacle courses, "cool" weapons, video games and presentations about skiing holidays etc. It is still very much sold as one big adventure.

 

It is correct to call WW2 a "just" war, but Churchill, in the first pages of his memoirs about the time stated that it was also an unnecessary war.

If the allies did not disarm and appease, Hitler could have been stopped when he was weak, as late as 1939, he could have been more easily defeated if he had tried to invade what was then Czechoslovakia, instead of having it handed to him without a shot being fired. And a military defeat would possibly have resulted in Hitler's ouster by the German military.

Various things were said about appeasement, but surely the horrors of WW1 were still fresh in people's minds. I can't blame them for wanting peace, especially when rearmament would have been financially ruinous following the Great Depression of the '30's.

So we remember the horrors of war, but it is also good to remember the disaster of being unprepared to meet new and unexpected challenges to our hard-won freedoms.

 

As with most things I think the 'powers that be' in society twist things to work in their favour. What I see of Remembrance Day now is a bit different than when I was a kid and there were no wars that Canada was involved in. I was taught to make it a personal experience (both my grandfathers served in WWII) so Remembrance Day was partly about understanding what they went through and what their reasons were. The other part was learning history so as to (hopefully) not repeat it. I think that's a purer form of Remembrance Day, understanding history and the actors in it, and trying to invision a better future.

 

Veteran's Day in the USA, Rememberance Day in some places Armistice Day in others. This holiday was started as Armistice Day, a celebration of the END of WWI. The Armistice, the treaty that ended the war was signed on the 11th hour of the 11th day of the 11th month. It is a celebration of the Veterans, the soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines that stand ready to protect the civilian population from warriors from other nations. These men have sacrificed many freedoms, and have been separated from their families on deployments, weather for war or training. Some were drafted, although noone in the US has been drafted since VietNam, some volunteered for many different reasons.
I personally believe in recognizing our soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines. I also did read the headline that it may be offensive, and some of what I have read I to find offensive, however I did swear an oath myself to defend your right to say it even if I don't agree.
I, DMark69, do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.

SGT DMARK69
US Army
18 Jan 1989 - 26 Feb 2001