Chivalry

It's fine if a man wants to do it or if a man and a woman in a relationship like doing those things--I have no judgment there.

However, I don't believe a man should be expected to treat women that way. He can if he wants to, but it shouldn't be an expectation/obligation.

I really don't think women should take it as insulting, but I know some do. I once had a woman give up her seat on the bus for me! I loved that gesture, even if it was highly unusual.

 

Chivalry is a warrior ethic. I have studied it and have tried to incorporate it into my life. Modern feminism is distrustful of modern chivalry, mostly because I think it's not aware of the latter. Modern chivalry has incorporated insights from feminism and the Enlightenment, and one is out of step with modern chivalry if one doesn't see a place for women as warriors, or a need for all people to be courteous, outwardly focused, and concentrated on self improvement.

Dean Jacques wrote a couple of books about it, of which I have read one. It's somewhat controversial in my view, and he makes a couple of moves that I found worrying. One is that he centers chivalry as a male ethic and talks about the need for men to recover a healthy masculinity. I find this worrying because, although I am sympathetic with any project that challenges aimless and toxic masculinities, I think it's wrong and sexist to be focusing on it as a male ethic.

Chivalry, properly considered, is a warrior ethic, and anybody who is disciplined enough and puts in the work can be a warrior. I have tried, although not hard enough, to become warrior-like. I take this to mean a person who is physically, ethically, and intellectually focused on understanding the nature of human conflict and prepared to fight for the right side. A knight defends what is beautiful about our world. She must do so with compassion, strength, and understanding. None of those elements can be separated from ethic itself.

Chivalry isn't holding doors for people, and people need to stop bringing that up all the time.

~ Adrienne

 

I don't mind general acts of politeness like those mentioned, seeing as I do these things for others myself regardless of their gender. In some circumstances I might be suspicious of the intent seeing as there are some that will misuse these gestures.

 

I strongly second Pret's definition of Chivalry as a better foundation for this thread.

I'd say I have a few drops of real chivalry inside of me, but I'd never call myself a knight, or saint. No, that's not what I am. I might be nice person, I might be an old-fashioned gentleman and I might have some "knightly" traits, but my "dark side" is far too strong for me to ever consider myself anything but a "mostly honourable mercenary" if we are talking medieval terms.

 

I like it, but I have wondered in the past, who decided it was the man's responsibility to do all that? Just like, who decided that a man has to put the toilet seat back down, although it's probably nice when they do.

 

Well that's an interesting way of putting it...

 

Were I to have been born century ago, I would have been beholden to the archaic values and etiquette of the last remnants of chivalry, or further back real chivalry itself. Thank fucking God for a few revolutions, figurative and literal, and the abolition of that dreadful custom. Chivalry comes from social structures I do not believe deserve any legitimacy of existence.

Oh, wait. You just mean politeness? Offer everyone help when it seems necessary, open doors for anyone and everyone if it doesn't greatly inconvenience you. But don't enforce gender roles in how you do such things, and don't engage in patronising actions such as standing up for women, but not men, when they enter a room or the creepy "let me get a look at you" opening of a door to anyone.

 

Why do we have to call simple kindness - "chivalry". It has nothing in common with the real meaning of the word.

If i manage to judge a person quickly enough, and deem them worthy of my kindness, i do try and make their life a little better, either by holding a door, freeing a seat, or whatever the situation dictates.

Mostly, this does not happen, as most (if not all) people who i encounter, i don't feel deserve my attention.

Also, this is not limited to either men or women only, it shouldn't be...

 

Politeness is different and I don't mind it much. If a man holds a door open, I just thank him; after all I do the same for both genders. It's people thinking women are weak and need 'extra attention' that bug me.

 

It's typically sexist, and I have nothing to do with it. I treat people with respect, whatever their gender.

What Pret Allez describes is different, and I have no problem with that.

 

Chivalry isn't all that bad, when you do it for both genders. Personally, I don't like it when a guy is chivalrous to me, because it implys that I'm female, which I definitely don't identify as. I would like to be the gentleman in this case. Chivalry was adopted by christianity for knights originally as some kind of honor code, which eventually turned into a way women should be treated. It was then meant as a way of respect, but in contemporary today, I don't think the need for chivalry is necessary in this sort of way anymore. Everyone should just help eachother out.

 

In regards to Prêt Allez's definition, no, I'm not chivalrous, I'm not willing to fight, that scares me and I'm not capable of doing it. Assuming we're talking about physical fighting. Verbally? Possibly.

In regards to Kaiser's definition, is chivalry only from a man to a woman? If so, no, that doesn't make sense.

In terms of politeness, yes, I hold doors open to anyone who has gained my respect (as well as other helpful things) , and sometimes people who simply haven't lost it. These are people of any gender at all whatsoever. Gender specific politeness is a silly idea.

 

Well, I was raised with "manners" that some can consider chivalrous. Examples include:

• Opening the door for ladies and letting them go in first (if a man is behind me, I'll hold the door open, but go in first);
• Pulling chairs for women (a little dated, but if women are in dresses or formal wear, it does really help);
• Standing when a woman leaves or enters (also, a little dated, and I usually do it in more formal settings;
• Lending my suit jacket to a woman if it is chilly and she is without a coat;
• Ordering off the menu for a woman (a little dated, but it helps in the ordering process; usually done when with [female] family members);
• Sharing or lending an umbrella to a woman;
• Giving up one's seat for a woman/elderly/infirm;
• Not wearing a hat indoors (not sure if that counts as "chivalrous" or "good manners")
• Addressing most women as "ma'am," regardless of age.

There are sexists implications, I'll admit, but I do so without meaning to demean women. Of course, it also can be biased against trans folks because I will distinguish between "men" and "women" based on physical characteristics. However, one could say that the "beauty" of chivalry is that, while the concept may be rooted in the fact that women are considered "the weaker vessel," a man will treat all women with dignity and respect, regardless of her race, religion, socioeconomic status, educational level, or class.

*Prepares to get bashed* :lol:

 

Chivalry is completely okay if you would gladly open the door, pull out a chair, etc. for a man as well.