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Same sex marriages

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Jim1454, May 13, 2007.

  1. Jim1454

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    #1 Jim1454, May 13, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 14, 2007
  2. Steam Giant

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    Re: TeeBe's Marriage thread reminded me of this and inspired me to create a thread on

    How does that work? Like, is it possible for an american couple to get married in canada? Or do you need to be a citizen?
     
  3. LowestVocal017

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    Re: TeeBe's Marriage thread reminded me of this and inspired me to create a thread on

    Jim, what does this have to do with the discussion of gay's not wanting to marry for the reason that "marriage is heterosexist?" :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:
     
  4. Re: TeeBe's Marriage thread reminded me of this and inspired me to create a thread on

    Ive never thought of it as heterosexist, of course in MA its legal for gays to marry so thats probably why
     
  5. Jim1454

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    Re: TeeBe's Marriage thread reminded me of this and inspired me to create a thread on

    Obviously gays do want to marry, because they can and they do here in Canada. I'm not sure gays here think about marriage any differently than hetrosexual couples do - it isn't for everyone, and people have their own reason for and against getting married.
     
  6. LowestVocal017

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    Re: TeeBe's Marriage thread reminded me of this and inspired me to create a thread on

    But this thread is speaking specifically on the subject of the idea that "marriage is heterosexist." Do you have an oppinion or two on that alone?

    As a matter of fact, let me clarify one thing: I'm not talking about anyone on this board AT ALL. :wink:
     
  7. tinkerbell

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    Re: TeeBe's Marriage thread reminded me of this and inspired me to create a thread on

    Marriage isn't anything-sexist. It's a ceremony that should only be done once and with the person you love. Invite people who you love to share it.
     
  8. TeeBe

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    Re: TeeBe's Marriage thread reminded me of this and inspired me to create a thread on

    You finally broke the "eh?" barrier! I have been catching myself at it constantly. I am not alone!

    *Ahem* back on topic :icon_redf

    I might be being influenced by the fact that, as Jim said, Canada has legalized gay marriage, but I don't think marriage is heterosexist. Movies either for that matter. Consider:

    Studies in the US and Europe concluded that 3 to 4 percent of men and 1 to 2 percent of women are gay and lesbian respectively. Less than than 1 percent are actively bisexual.

    (from Psychology Eighth Edition In Modules, David G. Meyers, 2007 by Worth Pub.)

    There are AT LEAST as many movies portraying gay/lesbian/bi relationships when taken porportionatly. They are just harder to find.

    As for marriage, the only thing that the idea of marriage discrimminates against is people who are not in love. Put in practice it is more discriminate, especially in some areas.

    I think that as with most countries, there is a time period that you must be in the country before you can get married here. In most places, it is 2-3 days. Then you can be happily wed, wherever you are from! The only problem with getting married in Canada is that although you will be legally married here, places that do not accept gay marriage will not recognise the union. :dry:
     
  9. beckyg

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    Re: TeeBe's Marriage thread reminded me of this and inspired me to create a thread on

    No, you don't have to be a citizen. I have lesbian friends who went to Canada and got married. We're in Oregon.
     
  10. joeyconnick

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    Re: TeeBe's Marriage thread reminded me of this and inspired me to create a thread on

    No, obviously SOME gays want to marry. That doesn't mean marriage isn't heterosexist. Or that as an institution it shouldn't be deconstructed and questioned--maybe even junked.

    Historically marriage is an economic union, not a romantic one. Marriage as the romantic soulmate chocolate and roses union above all other unions only really became popularised during the Renaissance. Looking across human history, marriage is about consolidating wealth, which is why you can find references to dowries and why there have always been and continue to be arranged marriages.

    Also traditionally, marriage is about the complete and utter subjugation of women. That's why until the 1960s (in Canada) it was so hard to get a divorce and why if a woman did, she was at a complete disadvantage as a divorcee, both socially and economically. A female child was simply a tool her father could use to strengthen his dynasty, make peace with his enemies, and solidify his alliances.

    All of this is not to say that some marriages are not wonderful things. But just sociologically, as a historical institution, marriage is not about love and it is certainly not about equality. And just because we have (barely) legalised same-sex marriage in Canada, that is not to say marriage is not heterosexist. The fact that it was such a hard-fought and long battle to get it legalised, and how it continues to be legislated against in the US (and all over the world) is clear proof that it is a heterosexist institution. That is, it is in the eyes of the mainstream something that is limited to one man and one woman. Unless you're from Utah. :lol:

    Sorry... it's just always such an easy target.
     
  11. joeyconnick

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    Re: TeeBe's Marriage thread reminded me of this and inspired me to create a thread on

    Even if I didn't disagree with those figures (and I totally do... I'd say it's more around 10%, although it's always going to be near-impossible to accurately measure given closeted-ness), I would still point out that movies are INSANELY heterosexist.

    Heterosexism is not just as simple as "does the proportion of gay-themed movies approximate the approximate proportion of glbtq folk in society?" Heterosexism is not a numbers game, any more than racism or sexism are. Heterosexism is all the subtleties, like how in most movies, everyone is assumed to be straight unless they are playing some kind of stereotypical charicature. Heterosexism is how guys who are shown to be emotional with each other are guaranteed to have some sort of scene where they either proclaim their heterosexuality explicitly, proclaim how they want to bang some hot chicks, look awkward and avoid eye contact after sharing a moment... to say movies are not heterosexist is like saying water isn't wet. Movies are all about reinforcing heteronormative ideals about love and marriage and relationships, how being straight is better, how being straight is normal, natural, revered. In fact, heterosexism is about how most of the time a girl cannot be friends with a guy without falling in love with him, about how men and women are essentially separate species that cannot understand one another... it bleeds right into sexism, just as sexism bleeds right back into heterosexism.

    Here's another, not necessarily from a movie but I'm sure you can imagine a movie being made about it: if a younger guy is consensually getting it on with his female teacher or an older female, the older party is definitely going to be in trouble but the boy is generally not going to be portrayed as any kind of huge victim. Now make that older party a guy... or make both parties women... and how do you think that's going to play? The younger party is complete recast from "lucky dog" to "innocent victim"--whether or not the younger party feels victimised. That's heterosexism for you--older gay men "prey" on young men but young men "hit the jackpot" when they score with older women. It's also sexism because the victim rhetoric is invariably employed if the older party is male and the younger party is female.

    Yes, so... to summarise? Movies: vastly heterosexist, even when not being blatantly homophobic.
     
  12. BILL9854

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    Joey, both your posts are spot on, whenever I try to explain concepts like that it always comes out wrong, thankyou for putting it so perfectly.
    And for the record, I'm a gay man and would personally find the idea of getting married quite uncomfortable... It sounds silly, but I'd feel like a wanabe hetro... lol :stuck_out_tongue_closed_eyes:
     
  13. joeyconnick

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    Hey, glad to be of service. I take (and love) sociology so I have a lot of background in taking societal features apart and trying to figure out how they work.
     
  14. Jim1454

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    LOL! I'd have never guessed!
     
  15. TeeBe

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    I thought that those figures were way off too, that's why I included the textbook reference. The numbers were derived from the 2000 US census.

    Also from the text:

    "Until recently, popular press assumed a homosexuality rate of 10 percent"

    and:

    "In a 2002 Gallup survey, the average American stated estimated that 21 percent of men are gay and 22 percent of women are lesbian"

    ...before giving the 'actual,' census derived numbers of 1-2 and 3-4 percent for women and men respectively. I still find those numbers a rather low to believe...

    I am not trying to be offensive. I just like to pick these things appart too. That, and I have a strong dislike for my Psych prof.
     
  16. joeyconnick

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    I would NEVER in a million years trust the US Census to have accurate data on people's sexual orientation. For one, I highly suspect they don't actually ask directly--the reason I suspect is because they don't here in Canada. Instead, they ask about whether you're in a relationship and what gender your partner is... which of course skips all the single people out there (conveniently).

    But even say if the US Census DID ask directly, can you imagine most glbtq people in the UNITED STATES being comfortable telling the government their sexual orientation? People there still remember McCarthyism (thankfully, though not enough people).

    Oh... and in fact, someone else is asking the same questions as me: http://www.gaydemographics.org/USA/2000_Census_Total.htm

    As they say, "lies, lies, and damned statistics!"

    I think the key word is that the numberes were "derived" from the US Census... whenever people see statistical information, it is VITALLY important to find out--if you can--what was asked and in what manner.

    The sad thing is there is this really simple statistical method of reliably getting accurate responses from people about their sexual orientation (or any "sensitive" question). You basically give a question in this form:

    Flip a coin. If the results is heads, answer the following question:

    "I consider myself gay: Yes/No"

    If the results is tails, answer the following question:

    "I consider myself straight: Yes/No"

    So anyone reading the results has NO idea what question the respondent is actually answering (because you mark the same "Yes/No" field no matter what you flipped) but mathematically you can figure out exactly how many people in aggregate are gay and straight from the data when done like that.

    (Or maybe it's flip two coins and 1 out of 4 times you're answering the alternate question. I can't remember exactly but it was in my introductory stats class and I remember going "Ah ha! That's BRILLIANT!")

    Of course, there are some pretty big problems with just simplifying it down to a very narrow binary like "straight/gay" but at least it would be SOMETHING!

    And if sexual orientation is multidimensional, or at least non-binary, then I suspect that the figures are much higher than 10% in terms of people's fantasies and feelings but most people just keep it under wraps because of... wait for it... heterosexism. (Specifically, it is way easier in a variety of ways to be straight in our society than it is to be gay... so really, what's the impetus to admit you have the occasional same-sex crush when that could get you fired, beat up, or disowned?)
     
  17. TeeBe

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    You have two huge points that I completely agree with:

    1. Derived from US stats? You bet that they are going to be off.

    2. Statistics can be made and manipulated to prove any point.

    The only reason that I actually used those stats is because they were the only ones that offered a source. I suspect that if they were accurate, we would all be very, very lonely. I wonder what the actual numbers are. Not that they matter, but it might be a point of interest.

    I thrive on discussions like this, where you actually have to think things out. My brain was dying over summer for something like this. :eusa_danc
     
  18. joeyconnick

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    Well glad to be of intellectual stimulation... :slight_smile:

    I like your point about us being very, very lonely. Anecdotally, I cannot believe it's as low as single-digit percentages but then, I have to remember that I live in Canada's Western gay mecca (Vancouver) and I'm somewhat "plugged into" the gay community, so of course my experiences are gonna be very different from someone in rural Alberta or Saskatchewan. Or even rural BC.

    Still, it's like the risk of getting HIV from blowjobs--one tends to think if that were even remotely more than minimally risky, there'd be a WHOLE lot more people with HIV.

    The thing with sexual orientation is that "being openly gay" is a whole lot different than "having sex with someone of the same gender." Lots of people do the latter who don't even remotely think they are being the former. And then there's the people who might fantasise heavily about same-gender sex but don't act on it. That's why, I think, Kinsey's study is still relevant today because at least he made the distinction between EXPERIENCE and FANTASY.

    I just love thinking of all these supposedly "straight" boys fantasising about hot gay sex. But maybe that's just me. :lol:
     
  19. joeyconnick

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    Re: TeeBe's Marriage thread reminded me of this and inspired me to create a thread on

    You need to give me chocolate, then I'll let you get married here. :lol:

    Canada is so awesome in so many ways.
     
  20. TeeBe

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    I am in Waterloo, and outside the universities, there isn't much in the way of gay culture here. Sucks for me. That's why I am close to Toronto, right?

    And Canada's pro-gay marriage legislation rocks :grin:

    The Kinsey study definately changed the way that sexual issues were approched. **Shakes head** Why did it take so long??