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being LGBT+ and Christian

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by shostakobitch, Dec 25, 2014.

  1. shostakobitch

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    whenever I struggle with being Catholic and queer, i always think of the moment in Bridge to Terabithia when they're all riding in the back of the pickup truck on the way home from church and Maybelle says that "if you don't believe in the Bible, God will damn you to Hell when you die." Leslie responds with "I really don't think God would damn someone to Hell... he's too busy creating all this"

    and i think that's really true. yes, there may be a few Bible quotes that don't exactly support homosexuality, but whomever you believe in has so many more important things to do than stop same-sex love. No one's killing each other or breaking the Commandments, and I'm a strong believer that even the queerest of queer people have places in heaven provided that they're decent people.
     
  2. Gabby29

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    Bridge to Terabithia is an awesome movie!! And I agree 100% I get dirty looks quite often when I go to mass since everyone knows I'm Bi however I always remember I don't need to be welcomed by them only God
     
  3. Melanie

    Melanie Guest

    this vid kinda makes the same point that you are OP but on a different topic.


    [YOUTUBE]7RFyk6H4pCw[/YOUTUBE]
     
  4. SomeLeviathan

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    Biblical literalism is a relatively new phenomenon (18th century or so is where it first really takes off, it has its roots in before that). It isn't all that hard to reconcile being queer with your Christian beliefs if you just choose to ignore the parts of the bible condemning homosexuality (like leviticus, which is essentially a quasi-guide to living healthy* [see the condemntation of eating shellfish]).

    I can say that I have never once met a person who is actually a biblical literalist. I've interacted with a lot of fundamentalist Christians and while they might say they are literalists, they'll also accept that you know, the Earth is round and Sea Monsters don't exist (at least in the way that the Bible speaks of them). There's a bunch of wacky stuff in the Bible, as you would expect from a text compiled by various different authors with different cultural and sociopolitical agendas. So taking the Bible literally, while a nice piece of rhetoric for the far right, isn't something anyone actually does in their real life in practice. I think there are a lot of good teachings by Jesus in the New Testament, but I prefer to think of it as a prolonged metaphor or a piece of literature as opposed to the 100% literal true TM word of God because of the numerous problems that occur when you do that.


    now I'm not a Christian, but I am religious. Interestingly enough, the people who seem to take the Bible most literally are the anti-theistic New Atheist types, like Harris or Hitchens who will point at passages in X religious text (Harris does it with the Quran mostly) and say "if you literally believe this in passage X you have to support Y!" forgetting of course that that isn't actually how people believe or interpreate religious texts.

    tl;dr: as much as some anti-theistic new atheist types would like to tell you, there is no contradiction between being queer and being a Christian. Interestingly enough, the atheists who would argue that there is a contradiction's argument rests that the Bible is the literal word of God, which is sort of hilarious.


    *you still see people making this argument from the right today that anal sex (which they equate almost entirely with gay men) will just destroy your health, it's obviously wrong.
     
  5. Metleon

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    < See my avatar (you probably can't read it though).

    That whole 'Love thy neighbor as thyself' thing is lost on way too many 'Christians'.

    Really the only concrete thing against homosexuality (and really just having sex with the same sex) is in Leviticus. And Old Testament law hasn't applied to Christians at all since Jesus died.
     
  6. MintberryCrunch

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    Yeah, because it's only atheists who believe you can't be queer and Christian. They're the real problem.
     
  7. SomeLeviathan

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    I never said it is only atheists who assert that, nor did I say that them doing so is the real problem
     
  8. MintberryCrunch

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    I just also don't think Biblical literalism is necessarily to blame for the idea that you can't be queer and Christian. I'm sure it is a lot of the time (for both Christians and atheists who come to that conclusion), but even non-literal interpretations can result in that conclusion.

    I don’t want to put a damper on this thread by bringing that up, but these are issues I went through, having been raised Catholic.
     
  9. SomeLeviathan

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    I don't either, that would require me to think that the Bible is the literal word of God. It's a complex interaction between sociopolitical and cultural attitudes more than the basis of some book.

    also for what it is worth I was raised Catholic too. more liberal Catholicism as opposed to strict teachings and these are issues with which I grappled when I first realized my own sexual orientation (and gender identity) which lead me to hard line atheism.
     
  10. QueerTransEnby

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    I get heat for being evangelical and bi from both the LGBT and Christian communities. I just so happen to think differently on 6 different verses than the Evangelical crowd, and I am somehow labelled as "lost" or "misguided". Talk about my faith here and how I believe that the vast majority of the Bible is literal and not metaphorical, and I get shot down. Yes, I believe in a heaven and a hell, and it is determined based on whether you have a relationship with Jesus Christ.

    Yet, we see how the centurion's servant was healed even though they likely had a gay relationship. The centurion was seen to have the greatest faith in the land. I believe in absolutes, but I think that most fundamentalists misread certain passages to accommodate and affirm their own bigotry.

    Long story short, neither "side" usually accepts me, so I find myself isolated and upset despite being a very accepting person. I don't pound anyone over the head with a Bible, but I won't shut up if the topic comes up. It's similar to my beliefs about gay rights in this country.
     
  11. MintberryCrunch

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    Same. I was raised with more liberal Catholicism as well. Certainly my parents are Catholic and do not have any issue with my homosexuality.

    But it's not the extremists that get to me. We have a tendency to focus so much on extremists. The fundamentalists who yell at us about how God hates us and we're going to hell, etc. but it wasn't them and it wasn't anti-theists online using Biblical literalism to steer LGBT people away from religion either--it was the soft-spoken people in the middle. The kids at church camp who would never say "God hates fags" in a million years, but who would say that they were disappointed and ashamed that so many young people support gay rights. Comments like that are what really stung me, not rantings and ravings of loud-mouthed extremists.

    Well, you can see how your views are maybe a bit confusing to some people, especially LGBT people. Most of the time when you hear the words "Bible" and "literal" in the same sentence, you get people who condemn homosexuality; after all, that is a common conclusion to come to when reading the Bible literally.
     
    #11 MintberryCrunch, Dec 25, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 25, 2014
  12. SomeLeviathan

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    totally agree, the harassment I recieved from my peers when I came out was far worse and hurt way more than the rantings and ravings of some street preaching bible thumper
     
  13. WallWeed

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    I HIGHLY recommend that you read the book "Homosexianity" by R.D. Weekly.

    As a gay Christian, I spent nearly half of my life hating myself because of the conflict of my orientation and beliefs, as I wasn't ready to dismiss the integrity of the Holy scriptures, but upon reading his book which delves into the social context in which the "clobber" verses are written, and how many of them have been misinterpreted, the vast amount of guilt that was tethered to my back was suddenly lifted.

    Also, this page on The Gay Christian Network provides a much more concise version of many of the points that Weekly made (if you don't want to commit to reading a full book), if you want to check it out:

    https://www.gaychristian.net/justins_view.php
     
  14. Silver Springs

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    I have a different dilemma to the Protestants here; the Catholic Church is clear that homosexual actions are "intrinsically disordered". I believe that the Holy Father and the Magisterium speak with the authority of Christ, so obviously I'm rater conflicted. It's funny, my parents are very liberal Catholics, but I'm extremely conservative religiously. In some way I support the work of the Courage Apostolate, but I still want a romance, to kiss and to embrace. I want to live out the Song of Solomon with a man that I love.
     
  15. Melanie

    Melanie Guest

    I'm a total bible literalist, but science. I just live with the dissonance. People are all "no you cant do that it doesnt make sense" and I'm all yeah I can because we dont know whats moral and we dont know everything + many things in the bible are specific to a certain culture/era. Thats when the name calling usually starts, or people start challenging because they believe theres no way Ive thought it through.

    Then sometimes they start up with "your GOD is immoral because [insert twisted bible verse interpretation here]. I lol.

    ---------- Post added 26th Dec 2014 at 04:38 AM ----------

    Just speculating, but I think this will change. Its unfortunate that the Catholic church seems to have picked up on some of the fundamentalist protestant Christians lead in this area. It just doesnt seem to fall in line with how they are positionally on contemporary issues. Same thing with abortion.
     
  16. Silver Springs

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    It's funny that I feel myself getting all defensive over the Church even when the doctrines being discussed claim that my desires run contrary to natural law! The Church hasn't picked up on anything from the Fundamentalist Protestants, certainly not in abortion and homosexuality! The Church has had clear teachings on homosexuality over the last two thousand years, and they haven't really changed since then. The Church is in the world, but not of it; it's dogma will never change. Catechism changes, as does the liturgy, but the core teachings of the Church cannot be changed even if every Catholic in the Church tried to. Perhaps (hopefully!) the Church will take a more conciliatory approach to monogamous same sex relationships, but homosexual acts will always remain a mortal sin. If the Church hasn't budged on masturbation or contraception, they will never concede ground on this.

    And, practically speaking, if Rome did alter dogma, the more conservative dioceses would schism.
     
    #16 Silver Springs, Dec 26, 2014
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2014
  17. Melanie

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    Silver Springs, have you studied the specific words that are now interpreted as "homosexual". Over time that interpretation has changed, and there are several gay Christian websites that discuss it. Its worth looking into if youre interested.
     
  18. Silver Springs

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    Yes Melanie, I have, thank you. I find some of their arguments compelling. I have also deeply studied the relationship between King David and Jonathan, and I'm sure that they had at the very least a romantic connection.

    Alas, as a Catholic, I must accept the clear statements of the Church on this matter. It sounds so masochistic, doesn't it, that I'm willing to stay devoutly Catholic, looking at their views on same sex attraction!

    I could claim primacy of conscience, but in my mind homosexual actions are still mortally sinful. It sounds so terrible, doesn't it? I know He loves me, but I still feel so guilty about feeling this way! God knows I wish I could just overcome this and accept my orientation, but it feels impossible! Perhaps, if God shows me to a man I can love, then I will overcome this. Until then, who knows? Gosh that reads tragically, haha.
     
  19. Choirboy

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    I get it. My guy and I are both practicing Catholics (me since the cradle and him since his straight marriage), and not likely to change. I've managed to accept the fact that there are very good things that have come out of the Catholic Church, and bad things as well, because after all, it's made up of human beings, and we're not perfect. I feel a sense of peace and belonging there that I feel nowhere else, and even though there are specific dogmas that I don't accept, I like the picture as a whole, and I can live with it. My wife took birth control pills the whole while we were married and I never felt that it made us unacceptable; she was divorced before we married and went through the annulment procedures, which were basically a pointless formality. I cringe at some of the comments that come out of the more traditionalist segments. But all in all, I've found acceptance and belonging, and I can put up with the bullshit from the hierarchy because there are enough people at my level who aren't so dogmatic and stiff-necked.

    I compare it to working for a big company with good benefits but really poor upper management. If you love what you do and like your co-workers and one-over manager, you can ignore some of the more ridiculous things that the executives say or expect, and keep working there. If the job becomes intolerable, or you get a new manager who's impossible to work with, or your favorite co-workers all leave, you may go to another department. If that fails, you may leave the company altogether. So far I still like the job, the co-workers and the manager, and I'm staying.

    I was brought up in a devout Catholic family that also had a rather large dose of skepticism and reality, so I never felt that anything I did automatically made me unacceptable, and I didn't remain closeted because I felt that I'd be rejected by the church or go to hell as a result of being gay. That's not everyone's experience, I know. But it is possible, if it really matters to you, to get your mind around it all enough that you can accept the things you disagree with and still feel that you're part of it. We can be part of a company or a political group or a family even though we don't agree with everything they do, and a religious denomination doesn't have to be any different.
     
  20. Melanie

    Melanie Guest


    Both of my parents were Catholic but I was raised to be whaever I wanted to be (or maybe they were just apathetic lol). I understand most of the tenets of Catholicism, but I identify as a non-denominational Christian.

    It doesnt sound terrible, and I understand the need/desire for Catholics to abide by the teachings of the Church. I was just throwing that out there as food for thought. :slight_smile: