1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Sorry if this is too political but: what do you think about the EU and NATO?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by lemons123, Apr 11, 2015.

  1. lemons123

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2014
    Messages:
    548
    Likes Received:
    0
    EU = "European union".
    NATO = military union...America, UK, Turkey and the rest.

    Anyone else who isn't huge fan of those organizations?
     
  2. sappho06

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2015
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    London
    Gender:
    Female
    Sexual Orientation:
    Lesbian
    It's all bullshit, but it still helps keep the world slightly (very slightly) under control.
     
  3. lemons123

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2014
    Messages:
    548
    Likes Received:
    0
    I agree, it's bullsh*t. I am from a small/insignificant country in eastern Europe and ever since joining those two organizations we haven't gained anything from them. It's loss after loss and it's definitely worse prior to joining. I am sure people in my country should start an anarchist revolution and chase away the politicians + that two organizations. We changed 5 governments over the course of 3 years but obviously government after government isn't the solution, especially since we are still in those organizations.

    It's not easy to find people in my country who agree with me though. The population is mostly divided between pro-russians or pro-westerners(pro-nato & pro-eu). Even Ukraine are acting more sanely than us and that's saying something...
     
  4. Aquilo

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2012
    Messages:
    631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Europe
    Uhh.. Nato...

    Very, very negative about some of their previous missions (like Iraq, Afghanistan).
    Don't know what to think yet about their Libyan excursion.
    Haven't read enough yet about their Yugoslav missions to form an opinion.
    Not sure yet what to think about their non-involvement in Ukraine and Georgia.
    Very much in favour of their anti-Somali pirate mission, their Pakistan earthquake relief mission and defending the Russian border.

    Overall I like NATO if it were a purely defensive organisation with disaster relief. Not sure yet what to think about intervention in genocidal conflicts. Against crazy war-hawk USA invasions.

    I'll come back on the EU later, that one requires maybe even more thought : p
     
  5. PatrickUK

    Advisor Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2014
    Messages:
    6,943
    Likes Received:
    2,359
    Location:
    England
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I'm a huge supporter of both organisations. They're not perfect by any means, but I think they have played a significant role in maintaining peace and bringing about freedom - especially in Europe. I would like to see greater integration within the EU, but that's dirty talk amongst some people in my country.
     
  6. gibson234

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2013
    Messages:
    1,135
    Likes Received:
    4
    Location:
    UK,Wales
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Some people
    EU I think is overall good for trade and keeping peace in Europe. Although, the Euro turned out not to be a good idea or a least admitting poor countries to it.

    I would support NATO any day over Russia.
     
  7. lemons123

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2014
    Messages:
    548
    Likes Received:
    0
    Frankly, in my opinion even if you support them or not the EU won't last too long. By 2050 I am sure it will be just Germany and Poland or more like: "Germany controlling Poland".

    With that being said I am not sure the first country to leave the EU will be UK or Greece. Those two countries are too 'typical'. I mean...UK sounds to me just complaining of the EU the way they're complaining of the bad weather...and Greece wants to be in the EU but struggles due to bad economy.

    I am sure the "bomb" will be dropped by a surprise country - one people usually associate with pro-eu mood (Italy, Bulgaria, Romania, Spain...). Those countries are p*ss-poor, especially Romania and Bulgaria, the EU isn't improving life there and they're used as a 'scapegoat' from parties such as the UKIP. I really can't see them staying for too long unless they're masochists.
     
  8. BryanM

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,894
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Columbia, Missouri
    Gender:
    Genderqueer
    Gender Pronoun:
    They
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I'm a supporter of both organisations as well as Patrick. I'm also a huge supporter of the UN.
     
  9. Aeolia

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2015
    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    111
    Location:
    fr
    Gender:
    Other
    Gender Pronoun:
    Other
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    All but family
    The problem with EU is that countries try not to play the game as much as they can. The goal of the EU would be to make a kind of "United States of Europe" but... well, governments don't want to lose their power.
     
  10. Aquilo

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2012
    Messages:
    631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Europe
    Maybe Hungary.. it's looking less and less democratic there from what I gather from the national news.

    ---------- Post added 11th Apr 2015 at 10:57 PM ----------

    Most citizens don't want it either. : /
     
  11. lemons123

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2014
    Messages:
    548
    Likes Received:
    0
    I kinda see what do you mean but this is the MOST ambitious goal ever. Trying to make "united states of europe" is harder than making HIV vaccine or sending humans outside the solar system. And I mean it.

    Europe is the definition of war, only China can claim more victims due to conflicts but with them it was rebellions and internal struggles in Europe it was disagreements between states.

    If they want to make it as united as the US they need to make Europeans speak one language, use one currency, have one military, one president with power over that military, free travel, same cuisine, same racial mixture and same religious diversity.

    So far the only thing they've succeeded with is "one currency", the euro....lol.
     
  12. Aeolia

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2015
    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    111
    Location:
    fr
    Gender:
    Other
    Gender Pronoun:
    Other
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    All but family
    Because of the governments not wanting it, the EU has to play the role of the bad organisation and all... People just see the bad things because the good things won't happen until the Eu works fully. But if EU had full power, the EU would become way more efficient.
     
  13. lemons123

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2014
    Messages:
    548
    Likes Received:
    0
    @Aquilo: Won't be shocked about Hungary but it's risky business for them. If they leave who will be their new "friends"? Austria or Romania? Both countries will rather invade them the next night rather than supporting them. They aren't Slavic unlike say Serbia or Bulgaria so can't see them easily getting along with Russia or other Slavs.

    Spain by the way also have strong civil society...keep an eye on them whenever protests are happening there.
     
  14. Aquilo

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2012
    Messages:
    631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Europe
    The EU seems to have had partial success in improving the justice system in Romania:

    https://www.iacajournal.org/index.php/ijca/article/view/URN:NBN:NL:UI:10-1-115937

    The EU has been a net contributer to Romania.

    http://www.laurianlungu.com/files/2012/11/Romania-EU-Funding.pdf

    The Application process for the EU seems to have reduced corruption.

    https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/handle/1887/19218

    Thanks to the EU, there's now free travel for Romanians in the EU, including the right to work in other EU countries.

    And probably quite a few more benefits (like EU laws reducing cell phone costs, improving food quality and safety etc.).

    Remember that we're currently in a nasty recession, it would have happened also without the EU. Also conditions might not be the best in those countries, but without the EU they could have been worse.

    (Although I'm not sure about Greece+Euro in this case).

    ---------- Post added 11th Apr 2015 at 11:13 PM ----------

    China seems pretty united to me, even though they have more than one language (lol @ Chinese government for calling those 'dialects'), different cuisines, different racial mixtures and different religions.

    Not that I'd want a second China though : p

    EDIT: USA has different religious make-ups, cuisines and languages too btw! ; )

    EDIT2: India might have been a better example than China, with them being a democracy.
     
    #14 Aquilo, Apr 11, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2015
  15. BryanM

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,894
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Columbia, Missouri
    Gender:
    Genderqueer
    Gender Pronoun:
    They
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    The worldwide recession would have still happened with or without the EU. The difference between the two situations is that without the EU, the recession would have hit Europe much, much harder
     
  16. Aquilo

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2012
    Messages:
    631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Europe
    Why 'harder' and not the same?

    ---------- Post added 11th Apr 2015 at 11:22 PM ----------

    Hungary and Russia seem to have a cosy relationship at the moment

    Russia's relations with Hungary warm as ties with West chill | Reuters

    Agree that it would be a very stupid idea economically. Don't think anyone will invade them though, the EU and NATO won't be happy about more wars.

    ---------- Post added 11th Apr 2015 at 11:25 PM ----------

    Lots of good things happen because of the EU even if it's not working fully yet. The EU is just absolutely pathetic at PR and national governments love to push the blame for various things to the EU to avoid losing national support.

    Like awesomeness like this: European Union roaming regulations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia , decreasing your cell phone costs.
     
  17. lemons123

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2014
    Messages:
    548
    Likes Received:
    0
    Not a big expert about China...but they're still one country and have always been.

    Back to Romania: Not the biggest expert about them either but they are our northern neighbors and are always mentioned in the same sentence with Bulgaria. Currently though one thing I noticed is how the European commission praised Romania but criticized Bulgaria....see here if you wish:

    Next EU Report on Romania 'Better than on Bulgaria' - Novinite.com - Sofia News Agency

    Even if they criticize Bulgaria for the high levels of corruption it was blatantly obvious Bulgaria is corrupted before joining the EU so...if that is their problem they had the choice not to accept Bulgaria at first place. They will not achieve anything by doing the same thing over and over again over the course of 10 years repeating how corrupt Bulgaria is.

    Basically, this breaks-down the issue of funds from the EU. If a country gives money to the EU: "the EU is bad". If however this country receives money but they aren't utilized due to corruption it's partially EU's fault that it sends money at the first place...

    Both ways: The EU has fault.

    ---------- Post added 11th Apr 2015 at 02:31 PM ----------

    By the way...now that you mentioned China:

    I remember a couple of years back the EU decided to prevent importing of solar panels from china to "ensure competition between European products". Yeah....'great deal': make sure cheap high quality products don't reach europe so we will be paying high heating bills to western european companies. Would't call it deal of the century...
     
  18. Aquilo

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2012
    Messages:
    631
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Europe
    The Chinese government absolutely LOVES this statement and actively tries to spread it as far and wide as possible...

    Not true though:

    [YOUTUBE]op3AUliUsKs[/YOUTUBE]

    This shows for each time period the biggest Chinese state in their biggest size. (And it's not entirely correct either, as I can see they added territory in the video which was only under theoretical control).

    If you use the logic that the Chinese government uses, Italy would be the same as the Romans..

    EDIT: Some people also say that there are two Chinese countries (like North-Korea/South-Korea), The Peoples Republic of China (what you know as China) and The Republic of China (More known as Taiwan). Although the People Republic doesn't count Taiwan as a country and Taiwan is too afraid of China to claim that they are an independent country (even though they are de facto independent).
     
    #18 Aquilo, Apr 11, 2015
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2015
  19. WearyWanderer

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    246
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Virginia
    Gender:
    Male
    EU I like. Still very much a work in progress, but I like its ideals and it has spread democracy and peace to much of Eastern Europe.

    NATO...eh...I honestly think it has grown too powerful. Too many interventions. Too much fuck-up-ery. Although that is mainly the fault of the US dominating the organization.
     
  20. lemons123

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2014
    Messages:
    548
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK, but countries' borders change over time, their ethical composition changes, rulers change basically everything changes. China has been called "china" for like what?? 1000 years at least? Aren't most of them 'simplified Chinese speakers'? And I know their dynasties etc. but it was still not just dynasty but dynasty ruling over one and the same country.

    ---------- Post added 11th Apr 2015 at 02:55 PM ----------

    The first statement is kind of false. The countries from eastern europe entering needed to cover certain democratic criteria to be accepted and not vice-versa. I mean...they were evaluated based on human rights and then got accepted.

    Read about it here:

    Community acquis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Here is how Turkey for examples progresses on these 35 issues:

    Accession of Turkey to the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    It will be kind of narrow-focused to claim that eastern Europe was "savagery" and then the good EU arrived and transferred them into LGBT-friendly overnight...

    I don't think the US is the "black sheep" of NATO though. There are lots of members, one shouldn't get all the blame despite having the strongest military.