Europe and tolerance

From what I can tell, France and Spain are quite visibly worse with LGBT acceptance than the UK. The UK is very LGBT friendly, whereas in the more religious France and Spain, they are less so, from my experience anyway.

 

Eastern Europe isn't known for being very gay friendly. And quite a lot of Southern and Central Europe is still quite Catholic, especially in rural areas. I think when you talk about tolerant Europe, you mean UK (minus N.Ireland), Germany and Scandanavia :lol: Which is a very small portion of the overall continent. I think it depends anyway. Bigger, more metropolitan cities will always be more liberal than the surrounding country.

 

France is hardly religious. Their churches are empty. It, along with Scandanvian countries, are quickly becoming quite irreligious. Many statistics place non-religion in France at around 40% and climbing.

Religion aside, Europe on the whole is probably quite a bit more tolerant of LGBT people, but it really depends on the country. You can find parts of Italy for example where you can be treated horribly for being LGBT, the same thing in various Eastern European countries (I've heard several stories about LGBT friends visiting Serbia and experiencing numerous cases of outright homophobia while visiting).

Sweden and Norway are known for their excellent treatment of gay people, as is Holland.

 

The UK being polite/tolerant is just a stereotype. As a nation the UK population got 'ding dong the witch is dead' to number 2 in the charts when Margaret Thatcher died...

 

I live in Scotland and as much I'd like to say we're very tolerant here I think we still have a long ways to go. That being said, I do believe we are more tolerant than most places in the US (based mostly what I've seen on here). It's not often there are any LGBT related violent incidents here, though there is quite a bit of violence here in Glasgow in general lol. We also have a few LGBT nightclubs in Glasgow which I've been to and there's generally very little trouble. Usually it's people being turned away from the door for looking too straight lol.

 

From what I know, all Western European countries are better than all Eastern European countries. The Nordic countries are probably the most accepting, with Germany and the UK being very accepting as well. As you can see, the more east you go, the less gay rights. The red means constitutional ban on same-sex marriage, while the dark blue means gay marriage is allowed. Light blue is other types of partnerships.

Also, I went ahead and viewed statistics, and France and Spain are actually more accepting than the USA. Countries like Russia and the Ukraine are much less accepting...






If I was to tell you from experience, all I can say is that I'm a Greek American and I've been to Greece several times. I've seen that the general attitude towards homosexuals is that they should keep it in the bedroom (although, many seem to not care much either). Although, Greece isn't as homophobic as some of the countries towards its north... some of the other Eastern Orthodox countries are heavily influenced by Russia and have passed their own versions of the "anti-gay propaganda laws".

 

I'm from the UK. In terms of official bodies and organisations there is a lot of emphasis placed on welcoming diversity and anti-discrimination rules. There have been dramatic changes even just within the past few years. When I was growing up, same sex couples could not adopt or get married, the age of consent for male gay sex was 18 (as opposed to straight and lesbian couples for which it was 16), and there were laws against "promoting homosexuality" in schools that caused issues with teaching tolerance and tackling homophobic bullying. Transgender individuals could not acquire a Gender Recognition Certificate as they can now. All of this has changed within just over a decade.

Whilst this does have a positive effect, it doesn't always filter down into the views of the general population and indeed there is some backlash as a result from those who like to harp on about "political correctness gone mad" and such. The younger generation tend to be (usually, not always) more accepting having grown up in a time where inclusion has been encouraged and is increasingly becoming the norm. There does seem to be a certain demographic that reject what they see as an insult to traditional values. These tend to be the sort who enjoy filling up the comments section of websites with complaints about, say, the latest episode of Doctor Who and how they don't like there being gay characters and the BBC's "gay agenda" because they don't want their kids seeing gay couples.

The thing about homophobia in football is a known issue which has been publicised, there was a documentary on the subject a few years back as I recall. You do get these groups of as you say hyper-masculine guys who like to present themselves as all tough and macho, homophobia sometimes goes along with that. Some areas are worse than others for homophobic violence statistically.

But to be honest having said all of that I've heard similar examples from other countries of these same patterns, I don't think the UK is necessarily unique in any problems it has with tolerance. Certainly we have laws/rules/regulations that tend to be far more on the side of LGBT rather than against. But that doesn't eliminate all the issues overnight.

I couldn't say about a comparison with the rest of Europe. My mother is French but has lived here since before I was born so we're not up to date with where France stands on LGBT at the moment, aside from what you might hear on the news.

 

I'd say it depends on the country, as well as the differences between rural and urban settings, generations, and even native vs immigrant populations. Even in the most accepting countries, there are problems, albeit a lot less pronounced.

Interesting, seeing Estonia and Ireland compared!

 

Gender norms are more noticeable in the UK than places like Sweden where they have been increasingly eroded, but modern football players are hardly glaring examples of hyper masculinity. David Beckham is probably the best example of a metrosexual male in sporting.. alongside Ronaldo. Most of them are more concerned with their hair than how well they play football.

The UK is one of the most LGBT tolerant countries in Western Europe, nevermind the world, and has some of the most stringent anti-discrimination laws around. Why it is perceived as being less tolerant than Scandinavia, or 'more similar' to the US is beyond me. I can absolutely state the we are nothing like the US.. beyond language the similarities end. Please stop trying to group us together.

Racism is more of an issue in football from what I can tell.

 

I'm from France, so I'm clearly not unbiased. I have no great love for my country, but I will say this -- we are very far from being "religious." In fact, we take secularism pretty far and are very attached to it, to the extent that in my circle of acquaintances, I'd have a hard time pinpointing who is of which faith: they could all be atheists for all I know and for all they show it. Certainly there are religious people, but I can honestly say religion is not a "big" part in the life of anyone I know.

As for tolerance... Nowhere is perfect and we are definitely not. Legally, we've made a ton of progress, but in terms of general acceptance, there was a rise of homophobic sentiment when same-sex marriage became legal. I've read up quite a bit on homophobic acts in the past couple years -- we have an organisation that gathers all the reported ones into a report. It's a painful read.

We're still not perfect on gender norms. A guy behaving in a stereotypically "feminine" way will get a lot of flack. A girl dressed in a "manly" way with short hair will also get comments when she passes idiots in the street. I've seen it happen so I'm not going to lie. Trans* issues are almost unheard-of and people have no idea what they're all about.

And to be honest, I would have hated being out in my high school. That said, my experience so far in uni has been nothing but positive. Also, I feel safe here -- safe enough to kiss a girl in public or hold her hand without worrying about it, safe enough to casually tell people I hardly know I'm not straight if it comes up in conversation, safe enough to count on more people backing me than attacking me if I ever encounter a homophobe in public.

 

France is one of the best countries for LGBT people. I've routinely corrected people who have this stupid idea that the French are intolerant just because of some silly protest in Paris, but alas, people will believe what they want. The French are world-renowned for protesting, so it's really no surprise that those in France who oppose same-sex marriage took to the streets. They are just a minority though. I mean, it was probably the first country to decriminalise homosexuality, they fought tooth-in-nail to overthrow the monarchy and to detach religion from the state. It's one of the most liberal nations around.

It's also one of the least religious - very secular. Definitely a favourite of mine, and I'd love to live there.

 

Spain is really tolerant of most of things, there are alot of immigrants from all over the world here and people kinda learnt to accept different people (there's always exceptions). One thing bringing down Spains image on this topic is definitely football, probably the most homophobic thing in entire country but that's a whole different topic.

And yes, eastern europe is pretty close minded, not only with LGBT but in general with different people or those who challenge gender roles. I lived some time there and boy will I do everything I can to never set foot there again. As an example, in Lithuania a politician physically attacked people in LGBT rights manifestation, he got fined for 300 euros and released immediately and he told the reporters he would do it again.

 

This is interesting. I used to think that the USA were the best place on earth for LGBT people, but I suppose it depends on the country, as well as in Europe.
I live in Italy and, well, having the Vatican City within our borders doesn't help...
Even though Italy's been the first country in Europe to have an openly transgender member of Parliament, I think the problem is more political than social. No politician is ready to lose the Catholics' votes with an LGBT friendly election programme.
Fortunately, younger generations are more and more open when it comes to LGBT issues and I hope something will gradually change, even though, right now, homophobia is still a major problem.

I totally agree France is a good place for LGBT people, but I have to say that probably Spain, since 2005, is the most open country, followed by Germany, UK and the Northern Europe in general.

 

Europe is more tolerant than America, except if you're Jewish or Muslim

 

A lot of people mention Scandinavia and Sweden here! To duty, I fly!
Well, in the metropolitan areas, yes, in my school environment, yes, it's very accepting, often to the point that it's not even like if you're a gay man with female friends, "Ooooh, come shopping with me", people often just don't give a shoot.
Cute gay couples walk the streets proudly here. Crossdressers win our music competitions. We have problems, especially in the small towns etc., but we're relatively well off.

One thing I can mention about Europe in general that has not been brought up yet, however, is the dark wave of revolutionary conservatism that's been rippling through it lately. Sweden now has a far-right party as the second largest party according to the most recent polls, with near 20 percent of the votes. France has Le Pen's Front National, Greece has Golden Dawn, Ukraine has Right Sector. These are certainly not LGBTQ+-friendly political movements and parties, and I think they deserve our attention. Many of them are out-right fascists. They deserve our attention in that we do not want the terrors of the LGBTQ+ community under Thatcher to be seen as something desirable compared to what we have.
Sorry for that sombre mini-speech, but the fate of Europe seriously worries me, particularly when it comes to minorities. We have already seen begging illegalized by Norway's incumbent liberal-conservative government. How far will it go?

 

In the US it's basically all down to the people you're raised with and live around these days. Whether they're older and more or less religious may/may not have something to do with it, and your experience will probably vary depending if you are/arent in a more conservative part of the country. Overall it varies from extremely tolerant to not at all and I assume Europe is more or less the same in that sense

 

From where I came from, Marseille (second city of France after Paris, located in the south-east), is not a tolerant place. Homophobic crime rates is the highest compared to the population, Patriarchal and macho Mediterranean values are preferred. If difference is spotted, you can easily be harassed in the street. But things have improved for the last five years, but I’m not there anymore to see it.
Fortunately I studied 30 kilometers north of this cesspool at Aix-en-Provence. But I think that the mass of tourists contributed to the tolerant atmosphere more than the high population of students.

And there is still opposition to same-sex marriage, even if the law has passed. The former president, Nicolas Sarkozy (that odious dwarf) have promised if re-elected in 2017 to revoke the law. Same for the leader of the far-right, Marine le Pen. Even if nearly 60% of the population support same-sex marriage, they will only listen to the worst part of the French people, the catholic fundamentalists especially.