"Masculine gays are just closeted gays"

To be frank, it is one thing to reject the idea of masculine homosexual men holding privilege in heterosexual society, but it is another to hold that belief while simultaneously believing that feminine men hold privilege in the LGBTQ community.

The plight of masculine homosexual men is invisibility and lack of representation. Two things that can be very disconcerting, absolutely. The plight of people who do not conform to gender norms even the slightest degree is harassment and a significantly high statistically rate of rape, assault, and early death. One cannot possible be even slightly aware of the realities of this world and insinuate that gender non-comforming individuals are totally accepted and have it easy in comparison to masculine men and feminine women.

You can claim that the issues that masculine homosexual men face are often discounted without discounting the numerous issues that non-masculine men face in the same breath.

 

I hate it when people expect you to be femme when you're Gay...Just because you're Gay it doesn't mean that you have to sing showtunes and put on make-up, so STFU...

 

As gibson has just stated this isn't really about who has it harder, more an experience of a group turning on potential allies and discounting their experiences (silencing). It happens the otherway of course, but Gibson is just describing the example from one side.

Naturally the more non-conforming gay people face an incredible amount of pain from outside the community, you are right, arguably more so than the more conforming. Although I think within the community it is a lot more equal affair.

I myself have heard the likes of what Gibson describes: this idea that if you are femme or non-conforming you are "true to yourself" and if you are anything else you are a fraud, a faker, self-hating, an "internal-homophobe". It's that idea that anyone short of, I don't know, Adam Lambert "isn't fully out yet"! It is quite ridiculous, but perhaps understandable as an expression of confusion or frustration at being a minority (or at least not an overwhelming majority) within a minority. I think perhaps its out of wanting more people to relate to within the community, wanting more people to be like yourself?

In my own experience, I look at other gay people around me and some are naturally more masculine than me, yet others who don't conform at all to traditional masculinity might aswell be a different gender to me as we are so different, and it is all good. I find it fascinating personally, seeing such rich diversity.

 

Yup, I've noticed it and it happens to feminine lesbians too- the whole 'invisibility' thing. Policing sucks either way.

 

When I was single I never found finding a boyfriend to be very hard actually.

I see people talking about what others 'expect' all over EC and I always find myself wondering the same thing every time I see it:

Why should I give a rat's ass about what any given person or group of people (gay, straight, or Martian) expect? I am as I am and I will do as I will do. And anyone who doesn't like it can go fuck themselves. And it will be their loss, not mine, if they don't want to associate with me because I don't fit whatever little box they think I need to fit into.

Really, it's as simple as that.

At one time or another I've counted all kinds of people among my circle of friends including both masculine and femme guys. By and large everyone had better things to do with our time than worry about whether or not someone's behavior reflected what some anonymous group thought they 'should' be doing.

While I've not been to one of the big Pride events, our local event seems to have a cross section of all kinds of people, including masculine guys. Although unless you go up and get to know each and every person at a Pride event, I'm not sure how you're going to determine if they are masculine or feminine. Or to what degree. And how are we defining and quantifying these qualities in the first place?

Why should I (or anyone) care about what some random person on a comment section thinks? And I can tell you that I spend about a nanosecond per eon worrying about whether or not I'm 'acting straight'. That's if I'm really really concerned about it. Which I'm not. Maybe I haven't hit that specific nanosecond per billion years yet.

Todd

 

yeahhh, this is one of the reasons why it's hard for me to come out (and i think for a lot of other masculine gays here round my place too.. which makes "Masculine gays are just closeted gays" somehow true, because in our case this kind of stereotypes and mentality makes us hesitant to come out) :/ specially hearing this from femme gays, like.. c'mon, that's lgbt members hating on other lgbt members, aren't they supposed to be more supportive? i believe "coming out" is about showing people who you really are, and if one is really a masculine gay, he should not be pressured to act otherwise just to conform with "gay standards" because i don't think there is even one.. lgbt is really one big spectrum and people needs to understand that and people needs to be more open-minded.. it sucks, but i hope it changes

:thewave:

 

Some people still expect gay guys to be femme. Tbh, that's bs. But we also have to look at the media and observe that masculine gay guys are hardly represented, that's part of the blame.

We actually have a Spanish teacher at my school that matches about half of the stereotypes of gay men. Sometimes when people find out that I'm gay, they expected that I was more like him. It's stupid that people expect that I act in a certain way. I mean, I don't expect my straight guy friends to act in a certain way...

 

I guess it's possible that it's a generational thing but I never really felt this way. Most of the gay guys I know (myself included) are basically masculine--at least as much as the straight guys I know. I have found at least where I live the notion that all the gay guys at gay venues whether that be bars, clubs, parades or whatever are feminine just isn't the case--not even close.

 

I understand that what might have been intention of this post, but that was not what was said.

Despite the fact that criticism of gender non-conforming men and women is still very rampant with the LGBTQ community, especially as far as dating goes, the additional visibility that they might receive more frequently a burden than it is a privilege for the reasons that I highlighted in my posts. You can say that it is hard being an invisible minority without claiming that there is ease in being an easily identifiable and, therefore, easily scrutinized and persecuted minority.

I couldn't care less who is more oppressed and have no desire to argument about it. I was completely on board with this thread until that paragraph because it is the same tired rhetoric that keeps being repeated despite being vastly untrue. This fictional ideal of feminine male or masculine female acceptance that we shouldn't have to throw out every single time this discussion comes up on these forums.

 

Not to derail the topic, as Gibson did go into detail, but it's not that difficult to draw that conclusion from this post:

You're right, it is more equal within the community; and you know why?

This is one of those more blatant 'two-way street' situations.

Just as you have what you described, and I can say from personal experience, there are just as many crap ton of masc guys out there who call the fem guys "frauds" and claim that their lisps, mannerisms, etc. are just played up and for show when, in reality, a lot of them are just as much being themselves as said masc guys who some fems claim are doing the same. This whole 'you're fake/ruining the image' is more of an "us vs them" mentality than anything it seems.

Media is far more to blame if we are talking about representations though, because(and this isn't to add onto a 'who has it worse', but talking realistically) they use fem guys for laughs, etc. than to actually care to show a fair representation of how different gay guys can be, unfortunately.

 

Ughhh I hate this divide in the Gay COMMUNITY. I don't get why we have to in fight and descriminate against eachother when we are already descriminated against from the outside the LGBT community.

 

Yes, I'm somewhat feminine and they always assume I'm straight. I always end up explaining to them over and over.

 

I fucking hate it when people assume I'm straight. I'm completely into women though. I am like the most lesbian girl you could meet. But on the outside people don't assume that. They just see a ''pretty'' feminine girl and assume she likes dick. It's rather pathetic. I like chicks so its awkward as fuck when a straight guy hits on me. I look at his female friend more then I look at him yet he still approaches me? Femme Invisibilty sure does suck I'll give you that.

I don't see anything appealing about rough features and manly voices.. I like tits over dicks and people just assume that if you're a feminine girl you must like dick? It's not true in my case :lol: and many more I might add! Just go on YouTube! There are so many cute feminine lesbians out there!

 

I absolutely hate this topic... But I hate it because I don't know what to feel about it, I have seen comments made about feminine gay guys that are so incredibly rude. It's disgusting and I hate it because I feel like I have this negative image of Masculine gay men, I do and I'm not going to lie I've seen a masculine gay man tell another that he was giving gay men everywhere a bad image because we weren't normal!?!?! If I wanted to be perceived by the world as "normal", and lie to the world about who I was I wouldn't have come out? And yes because of that one man I secretly(or not so secretly) hate masculine gay men, and I know it was just one but, I've never had a case where a masculine gay man says oh good for you, you're expressing who you are and it's great. But again I'm going off of my experience and I want everyone to express who they are and I know not everyone out there who is gay, is glitter, rainbows, and sunshine...but i don't want to be criticized for expressing who j am or how I feel about the world, and I hate the fact that that's the way gay men are perceived. Like I said I know that not all gay men are feminine but I understand that, and just because they don't act like me doesn't mean I assume "oh closeted gay man", I hope that most others feel the same way but sadly I know that's not the case...

I know me saying I hate masculine gay men, isn't fair but until I meet a nice masculine gay man who is willing to put himself out there and show the world he's gay, proud, and masculine, my opinion won't change. I hope it does because wow do I hate the fact that I'm going off of the fact that one person criticized another but, until that proud gay and masculine man comes along, I'll continue to feel the way I do... And for that I'm sorry

 

I'm of two minds on this topic. As a "masculine gay" I have dealt with this issue head-on, and have had other gay people say to me I "put on an act" to blend in with the straight world. This line of thinking pisses me off for quite a few reasons. For one, it completely ignores my own struggles in coming to terms with my sexuality. It's like saying "oh you're gay now and are with guys, but you still act straight because you can't deal with being gay." I have no problem telling people I'm gay if asked, but I also am not going to "gay it up" just for the sake of putting my sexuality front and center.

The very idea that one has to act in a more feminine or flamboyant manner if they're gay is preposterous and insulting. It basically says that I am not allowed to be myself. I cannot act the way I've always acted and the way that feels naturally for me, just because I've now embraced my sexuality. Needless to say, the guy who said I was putting on act, has the privilege of being the only date I've ever walked away from 10 minutes in.

With that said, the vast majority of gay people I know don't really subscribe to this line of thought at all. I find most gay people are generally cool with however people act. If you do have a problem with how someone acts, it says a lot about you, your immaturity, and your lack of respect for the diversity of people who are LGBT. If every gay person acted like Emmit from Queer as Folk, we would be a very boring group of people. It also completely goes against what the LGBT movement has worked toward: the respect of being who you truly are. If my personality dictates I act "straight," then I am have embraced who I am.

I just want to end this by saying I am in no way putting down gay people who act more feminine, or that they themselves are putting on act - far from it. Everyone is unique and should act the way their personality dictates, and what feels naturally.

 

Hmm, how is a masculine gay man closeted simply for being masculine? Just because he might fit in, and be mistaken for straight, doesn't mean he's "hiding" from the world. I think it's homophobic to think every gay man is automatically a diva.

Are there men who try hard to fit in, and repress their true, gay selves? Sure. Are there gay men who play up campy stereotypes in order to fit into the scene, and/or to rail against the dominant culture? Absolutely. At the same time, plenty are naturally masculine and feminine, and I see what these femme gay men doing as no better than straight men who say anyone who doesn't "suck it up" is automatically a woman, or gay.

I've known gay men who have said bisexuals are closeted, that trans women were "really" gay men, and I find it ridiculous. In some ways, it reminds me of the attitude you see in certain minority communities that criticize members for "acting white". At the same time, you have those who purposely go out of their way to do act as black/brown/yellow possible. Neither seems being true to yourself, in the case of trying to fit into a box. It's a problem when someone isn't, and is attacked anyway, because someone disagrees with how they live their life.

Anyway, unlike "femme invisibility", stereotypical gay men don't have the privilege of fitting into society. I think since women are allowed greater freedom of expression, it's harder to tell gay from straight, and the most comically femme of gay men are the ones who have no choice in how they present. It's like trying to change your skin color, or height.

I wouldn't say they're privileged, not by a long shot. Masculine, "straight acting" gay men are obviously the ideal in many places, and very few times do you hear of someone rejecting anyone who fits into this category. Everyone goes out of their way to say they're not like "that guy" and how annoying they find queens. I think the ones who have an issue with masculine men are envious of their ability to fit into society and not get as much slack for it, with a bit of projecting on their part...

 

We don't always agree, but I agree with this - especially that which I've put in bold. For some LGB people, gender non-conformity will be something that people will use to snicker at them or make life harder for them. For LGB people who are gender-conforming, there is no privilege because, if their preference becomes known, some people think "what a waste," "no, you can't be," or they feel the gender-conforming LGB person has duped them and they are therefore angry with the person and maybe even themselves. Who knows what goes through people's minds. My apologies for not including T ... it's because I am not that informed and have not personally observed how they have done in a school, social, or work setting.

 

Thank you! Stereotypes like this piss me off!