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(Serious discussion): Feminism!

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Invidia, Apr 25, 2015.

  1. Invidia

    Invidia Guest

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    Just wanted to put down in written form some thoughts I were assembling in my mind of yesterday evening; feminism from a trans* perspective - the achievements, the flaws and overall worth, if you will.

    So, first, the achievements. These are, in my opinion, what sets feminism apart from for example equalism - it has actually tangibly achieved things. Examples include women's suffrage, women's right to a pay near or equivalent to that of men, etc. etc. In short, it has pushed massively for gender equality.
    It has succeded, in my opinion, in taking the big picture of what gender inequality looks like in our society; roughly half the world's population is male, roughly the other half female. The first half oppresses the second in that the balance of power leans toward the first half, creating a system in which it is a necessity for men to be domineering and women to be submissive etc. etc..

    Second, then, the flaws. Well, two flaws to be mentioned include racism and transphobia, which unfortunately are prevalent in the feminist movement. Also, a hatred of men is often typical; for example, I've a girl in my class who's a feminist, and while I still officially identified as male (I'm DMAB), she was cold toward me and didn't want to work with me in group projects etc., but once I'd come out as trans*, she instantly became warmer. Oh well, at least she wasn't transphobic...
    I will argue, however, that the main flaw is in the analysis itself; the analysis of men>women, stop. It is very binary in that and thus can be a snag in its own wheel, the wheel of gender equality. Although, I think that this can be given a little break, since men and women are the definite most common gender identities.
    The real pyramid, then, would be men>women>trans* persons. For without a doubt, trans* persons have a harder time with discrimination based on their gender identity than women. And without a doubt, women have a harder time than men.
    Then again, I think feminism fails at times in acknowledging that men are definitely oppressed by the partiarchy, as well. They are forced to bottle up their feelings, etc. And it very often fails to acknowledge that women are not the end-game of the 'gender oppression pyramid' laid out above.

    All in all, I think feminism is a great movement and I'm an enthusiastic feminist myself. When people say feminism has 'gone too far', I say no, it has partially gone wrong, but not too far, and I've hope for the feminist movement for the future. I hope that it will include us trans* folk in future, and fight for free gender expression as well as for the emancipation of women's rights.
    Let me know what you think about feminism! :slight_smile:
     
  2. imnotreallysure

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  3. Kaiser

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    I know you mean well, Triflow, but...


    [​IMG]


    *settles in the trenches*
     
  4. Lazuri

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    I'm with the other two. The topic has come up a couple of times in the past and it.... It never ends well.
     
  5. Valkyrimon

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  6. ChloeKiss

    ChloeKiss Guest

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    Fuck da police

    I would get serious on this thread but.. too lazy.
     
  7. Invidia

    Invidia Guest

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    Why not? :frowning2: I think it's a legit topic and definitely LGBT+ related...
    And Kaiser, lol, I thought you were referring to the 'Feminazi' thing first, but I guess you were foreseeing some kind of... reaction...

    I didn't create this thread for everyone to agree with me, just some healthy, civil discussion, I don't think that's overly optimistic...
     
  8. ForNarnia

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    I've made the mistake of involving myself in this before, and it's honestly like walking into no man's land wearing a giant target on your head.

    I will say this:-
    Whether you want to call yourself a feminist or not, women, men and non-binary people should all be equal, life's too short to claim the superiority of one or the other.


    *runs to cover*
     
  9. Gandee

    Gandee Guest

    My curiosity is tickled. Time to read the very very old threads.
    Oh, the foreshadowing.
     
  10. Kaiser

    Kaiser Guest

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    No, and besides, that's the wrong war, lol.

    As for this topic itself, I do agree with you, it is LGBT+ related. But this subject, it tends to come down to these four schools of thought:

    "Feminism isn't true equality, because if it was, it wouldn't have "fem" in it!"
    "Feminists go too far! *cites Tumblr as credible source/finds most radical extremist blog/site*"
    "WHAT ABOUT THE MEN?!"

    And my personal favorite:

    "YOU'RE WRONG! HERE'S WHY! *intangible nonsense spewed!*"
     
  11. Fallingdown7

    Fallingdown7 Guest

    I agree with Kaiser, it never goes well with this topic sadly lol

    I'm a feminist, but there are extremists in every group. Like Kaiser said again, we have people hating feminists on EC cuz "Lol what I saw on Tumblr" even though every group is shit on Tumblr, including bisexual and trans communities.
     
  12. Gandee

    Gandee Guest

    I give up, the posts are too long.
     
  13. Invidia

    Invidia Guest

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    Hmm... :frowning2: Noone likes my question... sad face panda is sad face...

    ---------- Post added 25th Apr 2015 at 05:14 PM ----------

    *finds you behind the cover, laughs psychophantically*
    No, just kidding, but it is lucky, then, if all genders should be equal, that gender equality is the universal goal of feminism :slight_smile:

    ---------- Post added 25th Apr 2015 at 05:16 PM ----------

    Haha, yes I've heard those as well :grin:
    Oh, and the picture was *clears throat* the First World War, I think?
     
  14. antibinary

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    Queer feminism for the win.
     
  15. LooseMoose

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    I'd hazard a guess that most people on here subscribe to what can be broadly said 'feminist' ideals. Equality, freedom to be gender non-conforming, freedom from oppression of rigid gender roles, equality of education and opportunity to both men and women etc. etc., which I also do.
    In practice I have found that feminists as people vary greatly & that I can rarely find people I connect with /agree with.

    I have also found that various feminist groups hold contradictory beliefs & are keen to shut down an discussion which does not conform to their already established world view.

    Eg, as mentioned in the OP I find the analysis lacking through the refusal to discuss mens issues.
    I strongly feel that issues which affect women stem from how masculinity is constructed socially, and only through looking at that can we address reasons of female disadvantage. I feel that the way masculinity is socially constructed is too hard/rigid & as a result women experience hate- because they are allowed to express what men are not.etc. etc.

    When I wanted to discuss this in a feminist meeting I was shut down for turning the conversation to men & 'we are here to talk about women, and not men'- this kind of made me mad, because women don't exist in a vacuum in society, and understanding how society works is kind of necessary before figuring out how to improve it.

    Another example of the contradictions within the movement is that for many feminists prostitution is simply 'bad' for women (or people in general)- whilst others see it as a positive thing.

    At my university people get excluded/banned from the feminist society for wanting to discuss this issue- people get told they are 'whorephobic' and oppressive etc.
    It seems like most conflict is between different factions of the movement.


    Frankly to me it looks like a lot of it these days is a giant real life extension of tumblr- where people engage in live matches of mutual censorship and offence taking, and real analysis gets lost, but this is just my take on it.
     
  16. Tightrope

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    ^ Good icon/emoticon!

    The good: equal pay for equal work, equal treatment where it has to do with opportunity to access schooling, work, living conditions, etc.

    The bad: it has tilted to where women can make things harder on men, and not get called on it, and the opposite is certainly not true. This could be changing among younger feminists. There was a palpable bitterness among some of the early pioneers of this movement and it seems like evening up the score was getting carried too far. I don't want the pendulum to swing too far in this direction.

    I've got several examples, but I'll share a personal experience: I was in a major city on vacation and a prostitute came up alongside me and grabbed me in the crotch. It was dusk outside. I told her I wasn't interested. She kept on with the "oh, come on." I then told her more explicitly why I wasn't interested, which might have been somewhat of an insult. She then upped the ante in how she insulted me. Had I gone to the police, and even had I found her after reporting her, they would have laughed at me. Now, had I done something like that to a woman, which I wouldn't do, I'd be in trouble. The other problem is when consensual sex turns into "date rape" after a girl or woman has changed her mind, and this happens, but I'll stop.

    My question: beyond equal pay, equal treatment, and equal opportunity, what do today's feminists want to achieve?
     
  17. Invidia

    Invidia Guest

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    You said it, anti!

    And thank you, Loose, for your input, first critique/analysis head-on (alhough everyone else' input is also appreciated in their own way :slight_smile: )

    You are obviously somewhat more pessimistic than me, but I can understand your impatience with a number of feminists.
     
  18. Pret Allez

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    This forum is so horribly unacademic that any discussion of this field of topics will be crushed under the weight of "hurr durr, I don't like feminists cuz Tumblr."

    I would happily discuss feminism with you from a genderqueer perspective on your wall though.

    Adrienne
     
  19. Awesome

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    I often feel that people forget what feminism really is. There are the feminazis, people who call them feminists but don't want equality, they want control, just as sexist as the men who want full control over society themselves. I think that real feminism is a very positive movement. I also think that it is beneficial to people in the trans* community, because it fights for people to have equal rights, regardless of gender.
     
  20. Tightrope

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    The opinions here may not be in synch. As for myself, I have rarely looked to Tumblr, except when I search images and I then link them.

    I get my opinions from years in both school and in the workforce, in addition to the news, articles, books, editorials and op ed viewpoints. My viewpoints don't have statistics, but a consistent undercurrent of experience.

    I don't tolerate man-bashing, though, which is an by-product of when people point out partial truths about feminism in 2015. In the U.S., the strides in income for women have been noticeable. Many women make more than their husbands or partners. If you want to use apples and apples, it's not a problem. If you want apples and oranges, then it is a "problem," in quotes, because women still populate certain lower earning fields and also take time out to rear children.

    I have NEVER in my life experienced a situation where a female colleague made less than I did for the same job and the same performance level. If anything, I've experienced where they made slightly more, and I found out by accident, because they were viewed more positively for being married, even though they did not have children, but this was related to the culture of some smaller employers.