euh ... PM Dion?

[Nitro]

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/...ion-talks.html

Bloodless coup or a more just representation of the voices of Canadians? Rather ironic that not two months ago Stephen Harper called his marginal gain in seats, after a federal election which saw the lowest voter turnout in a federal election ever, an affirmation of the Conservative mandate. It only gets better when one considers that M. Dion repeatedly ranked as the least popular leader of the major parties in the past election.

And yet ... I wonder aloud (hopefully without tempting fate!): What could be worse than the current leadership?

[Lexington]

I thought this was PM Dion:

+ YouTube Video

Lex

[panda]

Ah Lexington, that is not Stephane Dion the discredited leader of our Liberal Party.^^^ Nor is M. Dion the guy from Dion and the Belmonts.
He is the possible new leader of our Great Country.

A worst case scenario would be Jack Layton as PM and then Olivia Chow who represents my riding, would be First Lady of Canada...

[Lexington]

Any relation to Celine? She's from Canada.

Lex

AH. TWO PARTY STATE.
*panics*

The NDP, Bloc and the Liberals are completly different! They can't get along. Nothing will get done. We need another majority government.

I just want the Progressive Conservative party back. Is that too much to ask? Flippin' Alliance ruining my politics. Harper is just as useless. He needs to take a firm stance before he is ousted.

Why is it that everytime the economy gets bad people run towards socialism like it has all the answers? We need to enforce a mixed economy and give tax breaks to companies to provide them with the incentive to continue to work. And to the Americans: Regulate your banks. For reals.

Argh.
I hate that all the politicians are running around like chickens with their heads cut off.

/rant

PS. Dion was a horrible choice of leadership. BOO. Get your act together, Liberals. Stop with this carbon dioxide limitation nonsense. There are worse pollutants (see: sulfur and nitrous oxide emissions).

I need to scream. Excuse me.

Originally Posted by Numfarh

Why is it that everytime the economy gets bad people run towards socialism like it has all the answers?

I know. I hate that. We tried it in the 1930's and it did nothing. People always run to to socialism when the economy gets bad I can't stand it.

[acorn7]

Originally Posted by Midnight Angel

I know. I hate that. We tried it in the 1930's and it did nothing. People always run to to socialism when the economy gets bad I can't stand it.

Oh please, the Liberals are hardly "socialists". And besides, some of the great social progress was made in France in the 30's under, guess what... a left-wing coalition.

Harper was being totally stupid and irresponsible, and this is what he gets back. Stéphane Dion might not be the most charismatic guy in the world, in big part thanks to the media that was on his back from the start, but he'll only be there for a couple of months until the Liberals get their new leader. He's a smart guy and there's plenty of talent around him. I think this is going to be so refreshing after what already seems like a lifetime of crap Harper government.

And, when you think of it, these three parties combined got waaaaayy more votes than the Conservatives. I think it's going to be fascinating to watch

[panda]

I forgot to put this in my above post.^^^^

This is Stephane Dion.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/b...finds-god.aspx

[Nitro]

Originally Posted by Numfarh

The NDP, Bloc and the Liberals are completly different! They can't get along. Nothing will get done.

It is a sign of the times and a reflection of the competence of the current government that a coalition dependent on the support of separatists is even conceivable.

But is it all that bad? It was under Lester Pearson that we got universal health care. Perhaps having other parties holding liberals by the proverbial balls is a formula for success.

I'm not saying that the Liberals are socialists, but if you think that the NDP is not socialist...

I'm not against socialism. I think that universal health care is important as it takes pressure off of companies as they no longer have to provide health benefits to employees. I believe that diving into socialism is not the right course of action to take at this point. I firmly believe that a mixed economy with the government intervening only when necessary is the proper way to run a nation. The government should allow for make work projects, but at least half of the money needs to be from tax cuts.

The reason I am up in arms over this coup d'etat is that it is undemocratic. People may be unhappy with the current government, but they were voted into parliament by the nation. Parties should have no right to place under-the-table deals to remove a party from power. And besides, I do not believe that a two party state is representative of what all people want.

Let me stress this: I do not like Harper. But I also do not like this unethical approach being taken by the Liberals and the NDP. For goodness sake, they are forming an alliance with a party that wants to tear the country apart. At this time, we need a strong solid leadership, not some hastily thrown together coalition.

Sometimes I feel like the only conservative east of Alberta.

[xequar]

Originally Posted by Numfarh

I'm not saying that the Liberals are socialists, but if you think that the NDP is not socialist...

I'm not against socialism. I think that universal health care is important as it takes pressure off of companies as they no longer have to provide health benefits to employees. I believe that diving into socialism is not the right course of action to take at this point. I firmly believe that a mixed economy with the government intervening only when necessary is the proper way to run a nation. The government should allow for make work projects, but at least half of the money needs to be from tax cuts.

The reason I am up in arms over this coup d'etat is that it is undemocratic. People may be unhappy with the current government, but they were voted into parliament by the nation. Parties should have no right to place under-the-table deals to remove a party from power. And besides, I do not believe that a two party state is representative of what all people want.

Let me stress this: I do not like Harper. But I also do not like this unethical approach being taken by the Liberals and the NDP. For goodness sake, they are forming an alliance with a party that wants to tear the country apart. At this time, we need a strong solid leadership, not some hastily thrown together coalition.

Sometimes I feel like the only conservative east of Alberta.

Hun, I'm a socialist. I've seen your NDP, and they ain't socialists. True liberals, yes, but socialists, no.

Take a look to the south and see what free market economics have done to the U.S. Our economy's a trainwreck, and it's so bad that we're dragging the rest of the world down with us. I can drive through neighborhoods here in suburban Detroit where literally every other house is vacant and for sale. Up in rural Michigan where my parents live, crime's skyrocketing as people are trying anything to survive.

As for you guys, I seriously hope that this coalition can not only run Harper out of government, but toss his worthless body into Hudson Bay, as well. From my vantage point, Canada's voters said they wanted not Conservative, but because the not Conservative votes are split between the Liberals and the NDP, you got Conservatives. Hopefully this coalition can fix that and make Canada that shining bastion of civilization (or is that the glare off the snow? ) to the north of your barbaric, but warmer, neighbors.

Originally Posted by xequar

Hun, I'm a socialist. I've seen your NDP, and they ain't socialists. True liberals, yes, but socialists, no.

... Then boy am I confused. I was under the impression that increasing the amount of government involvement in the economy and increasing taxes to increase government services was a socialist view. And that is exactly what the NDP promises. I'm not saying they are communist. They are socialist though. Check out their website: http://www.ndp.ca/home

Originally Posted by NDP

...We will ensure that opportunities are shared with working families and individuals, not taken away through tax giveaways to those who need them least. ...

Establish and adequately fund a Canada-wide child care and early learning program. We will make high quality, accessible, affordable, non-profit and licensed child care available to Canadian families, including aboriginal Canadians. ...

Reverse the Liberal and Conservative giveaways. The New Democrats will not implement Mr. Harper's profligate, wasteful and unproductive corporate tax breaks. We'll restore a uniform 22.12% tax rate – what it was before the Martin and Harper governments began these giveaways. ...

Need I go on?

Originally Posted by xequar

Take a look to the south and see what free market economics have done to the U.S. Our economy's a trainwreck, and it's so bad that we're dragging the rest of the world down with us.

I am not for a complete free market economy. I am for a mixed economy that leans towards capitalism. And furthermore, I completely disagree with the increased deregulation implemented by the Bush administration. Unfortunately, when companies are out to turn a profit, they sometimes neglect to view the big picture. Regulations should have been in place to prevent the banks/insurance companies from overlending the loans. (Canada is not being hit as hard as other countries yet because our banks are doing fine-ish.)

Originally Posted by xequar

As for you guys, I seriously hope that this coalition can not only run Harper out of government, but toss his worthless body into Hudson Bay, as well.

Unfortunately, what they are doing is undemocratic and just plain unethical. While it is legal, essentially they are removing power from the party that was elected into office.

Originally Posted by xequar

From my vantage point, Canada's voters said they wanted not Conservative, but because the not Conservative votes are split between the Liberals and the NDP, you got Conservatives.

The Liberals and the NDP knew this as well as the next party. The coalition formed between the Alliance and the Progressive Conservative party held a national referendum about their merger, the Liberals and NDP are trying to wiggle their way around our constitution. It is back-room dealings at its worst. And just to add insult to injury, they are striking deals with the Bloc Quebecois for goodness sake!

You don't have to agree with Harper and his government, but even a fool can see that this is just downright wrong.

[heatqueen]

Dammit!! When I saw the words 'Dion' and 'Canada' I thought this thread was about Celine Dion!!! But it isn't...

[xequar]

Originally Posted by Numfarh

... Then boy am I confused. I was under the impression that increasing the amount of government involvement in the economy and increasing taxes to increase government services was a socialist view. And that is exactly what the NDP promises. I'm not saying they are communist. They are socialist though. Check out their website: http://www.ndp.ca/home

Need I go on?

Who would own and control the means of production, i.e. corporations? Would they remain privately held? If yes, then it's not socialism.

Originally Posted by dictionary.com

so⋅cial⋅ism   /ˈsoʊʃəˌlɪzəm/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [soh-shuh-liz-uhm] Show IPA Pronunciation

–noun 1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

Originally Posted by Numfarh

I am not for a complete free market economy. I am for a mixed economy that leans towards capitalism. And furthermore, I completely disagree with the increased deregulation implemented by the Bush administration. Unfortunately, when companies are out to turn a profit, they sometimes neglect to view the big picture. Regulations should have been in place to prevent the banks/insurance companies from overlending the loans. (Canada is not being hit as hard as other countries yet because our banks are doing fine-ish.)

Exactly. You guys had better regulation in place to prevent a lot of the subprime mortgages that took place down here. At one point, we had 40 percent of our mortgages being originated as subprime. At your highest, you had four percent. That means your banks continued to receive money because far fewer people were defaulting on mortgages because far fewer people were getting sacked by huge rate hikes.

Originally Posted by Numfarh

Unfortunately, what they are doing is undemocratic and just plain unethical. While it is legal, essentially they are removing power from the party that was elected into office.

The Liberals and the NDP knew this as well as the next party. The coalition formed between the Alliance and the Progressive Conservative party held a national referendum about their merger, the Liberals and NDP are trying to wiggle their way around our constitution. It is back-room dealings at its worst. And just to add insult to injury, they are striking deals with the Bloc Quebecois for goodness sake!

You don't have to agree with Harper and his government, but even a fool can see that this is just downright wrong.

[/quote]You guys have a parliamentary system of government, and more people voted for NOT conservative than they did for Conservatives. The Conservatives were not able to form a majority government, and the Conservatives have not been able to effectively run the government. Therefore, a coalition government is the order of the day. It happens all the time in other nations with parliamentary systems. If the new coalition runs Steven Harper out of power, so much the better.


In all fairness, I'm very liberal, and you've described yourself as conservative, so more of this is fundamental disagreements than Canada-specific. I know you guys haven't really ever done the coalition thing that's underfoot now, but with the Canadian version of G.W. Bush trying to drive your boat (but is too short to reach the pedals), now seems like the perfect time to start!

[Swamp56]

Because socialism really worked in Russia, huh

I have no opinion on the matter besides my own Political Viewpoints as a Liberal Republican (small government with high economic regulation).

[xequar]

Originally Posted by Swamp56

Because socialism really worked in Russia, huh
).

Totalitarianism =/= Socialism.

Originally Posted by xequar;358813!

Who would own and control the means of production, i.e. corporations? Would they remain privately held? If yes, then it's not socialism.

I'm not sure why you are being so insistent that they are not socialist. They are. They want public childcare provided to parents, increased spending on public healthcare and welfare. Increased taxes generally is met with an increase in government involvement in industry (healthcare, airplanes, forests...).

I know what socialism is. It is not total control by the government, but it is significantly more than Keynesian politics (see: Liberals).

Unfortunately, I'm mostly sure, at this point, that the coalition government will be formed. And it is all Harper's fault. I mean, it was damn foolish to propose the 1.96$ per vote as party funding. The Liberals essentially had to try to overturn the government or risk dissolution. The reason I harp on about it being undemocratic is because there was no Liberal-NDP-Bloc party running on the ballot. You know we have only had a national coalition government ONCE in the history of Canada? People of opposing opinions do not good bedfellows make.

My head is all a jumble and I'm not sure if I would prefer:
1. Coalition government. Relatively stable, but ill-got. Plus, Dion is the worst leader to do the job. They should have just appointed some guy as interim PM-to-be. Not good because shoving money into an economy without knowing where to put it is a bad idea. I mostly disagree with bailouts, especially those in the US.
2. Parliament is put on hold by Harper's government. Not good because we need to have a governing body to help steer us during this downward turn.
3. Another election is called. Not good because honestly, we don't have the money to run another election now. The leaders haven't even changed.
4. Minority government is maintained by Harper when he backpedals and panders to the left. Not good because the government is unstable and people in general seem to be dissatisfied with Harper.

And as for your comments about Harper being like Bush, that is a load of sh-oes. He is a very intelligent man who is regarded by most politicians as a leader who can play the game of politics very well (forgiving this last catastrophic mistake). I would trust him with our economy (I believe he graduated from the U of C with his Masters in economics).

But yes, you being a socialist and me being a conservative, we are fundamentally different in the way we view things.

[Jim1454]

Originally Posted by Numfarh

Unfortunately, I'm mostly sure, at this point, that the coalition government will be formed. And it is all Harper's fault. I mean, it was damn foolish to propose the 1.96$ per vote as party funding. The Liberals essentially had to try to overturn the government or risk dissolution. The reason I harp on about it being undemocratic is because there was no Liberal-NDP-Bloc party running on the ballot. You know we have only had a national coalition government ONCE in the history of Canada? People of opposing opinions do not good bedfellows make.

Yes - It certainly seems to be Harper's fault. How could the opposition parties do anything BUT suggest such an arrangement. And in the paper this morning it was in fact Harper who wanted to arrange a similar coalition when Paul Martin was leading with a minority government. So he comes across as hypocritical now - but I've never liked him either.

I think it's incredibly interesting to watch what's going on. Unlike in the US, where the balance of power teeters between two parties by a very slim margin every 4 years, here we have some incredible opportunities for debate on some key issues.

You can call it undemocratic if you want to, but the fact is that the government can do whatever it wants after it's elected, ignoring the platform on which it ran it's campaign. (Like we haven't seen that happen!) So what's the difference here? I don't recall this funding equation being a matter of debate during the last election - was it? So I think the other parties are well within their rights to come together and provide an alternative.

The coalition would definitely be more 'gay friendly' too!

[xequar]

Originally Posted by Numfarh

Unfortunately, I'm mostly sure, at this point, that the coalition government will be formed. And it is all Harper's fault. I mean, it was damn foolish to propose the 1.96$ per vote as party funding. The Liberals essentially had to try to overturn the government or risk dissolution. The reason I harp on about it being undemocratic is because there was no Liberal-NDP-Bloc party running on the ballot. You know we have only had a national coalition government ONCE in the history of Canada? People of opposing opinions do not good bedfellows make.

The only people in Canada who voted for Stephen Harper were the people in his riding. It's not like here in the U.S. were we vote for the actual leader of the country. You voted for your PM and everyone else voted for their PMs, then all the PMs get together and try to make a go of it. Apparently Harper couldn't make a go of it, so he's likely going to have his sorry ass kicked to the curb in favor of those that can actually make it work.

Originally Posted by Numfarh

And as for your comments about Harper being like Bush, that is a load of sh-oes. He is a very intelligent man who is regarded by most politicians as a leader who can play the game of politics very well (forgiving this last catastrophic mistake). I would trust him with our economy (I believe he graduated from the U of C with his Masters in economics).

Never mind that it was Bush's Republicans that got Harper into power in the first place by buying your 2004 and 2006 elections. And let's remember that going to college or having a degree do not intelligence make. W went to Yale, and yet he's either dumb as a fencepost or REALLY good at gaming the American public to make us think he's dumb as a fencepost. Given what he and his cronies have done, it's really hard to tell anymore.

And Harper's the same way. He at least speaks in complete sentences, but it's the same political BS that drives the country into the ground.

Originally Posted by xequar

The only people in Canada who voted for Stephen Harper were the people in his riding. It's not like here in the U.S. were we vote for the actual leader of the country. You voted for your PM and everyone else voted for their PMs, then all the PMs get together and try to make a go of it. Apparently Harper couldn't make a go of it, so he's likely going to have his sorry ass kicked to the curb in favor of those that can actually make it work.

I understand how our political system works; you don't have to explain it to me. But if we are talking about asses being kicked, then why in hell is Dion allowed to run the country? Because of him, the Liberal party lost this past election by recording topping numbers. He is just boring. The only benefit to him being PM is maybe he will learn to speak english.

Plus, the carbon tax is a joke. You don't punish people for doing wrong; you reward them for being right. We should allow for a tax moratorium for companies that practice green energy techniques. The government could shift money towards building nuclear power plants providing companies a cushion on which to invest. Continue to work with Arnold to make that hydrogen highway a reality. I don't believe that carbon dioxide is causing global climate change (but climate change is happening), but if it makes the alarmists settle down, outlining Canada's own green plan is the way to do it. Kyoto is just a way to destroy the economy.

The carbon tax, Dion and the economy are why I didn't vote Liberal.

Originally Posted by xequar

And let's remember that going to college or having a degree do not intelligence make.

And let's remember that you not liking someone's policies does not stupid make.

I should make the PC come back. Screw "Unite the Right". I want my just-right-of-centre party back.

I know I may sound like I'm whining over a legal government turnover that would better represent the majority of Canadian citizens. I just feel strongly that the coalition will be digging us into a brand new Trudeau-esque hole of debt. And it's just downright unfair.