1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Libertarians (Looks at AwesomeGaythiest and BryanM)

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by anthonythegamer, Jun 3, 2015.

  1. How do you guys feel about them?

    I basically looked up to them because I'm extremely dissatisfied with the status quo. The national debt of the United States is sky-high, both Democrat and Republican politicians trying to keep troops overseas, no sign of fiscal austerity, big businesses being created by government, and our monetary policy is the giant elephant in the room.

    I looked to libertarianism and finally found a group that agrees with me on most issues. In fact, the main issues I disagree with them are welfare, tax policy, and national healthcare.
     
  2. Invidia

    Invidia Guest

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2015
    Messages:
    2,802
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Far above the clouds, gazing deep below the Earth
    Gender:
    Female (trans*)
    (Right) libertarianism is a spawn of free market fundamentalism. It has never been tested. I say it's dangerous. Perhaps closest, at least that I know of, are the neoliberal experiments in South America in the mid to late 20th century, which ended in disaster.

    Against corptocracy? Against war? Pro welfare and a fair distribution of value? You're looking in the wrong places.
     
    #2 Invidia, Jun 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015
  3. BryanM

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,894
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Columbia, Missouri
    Gender:
    Genderqueer
    Gender Pronoun:
    They
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Some parts of libertarianism appeal to me when it comes to non-interventionism and ending the drug war, but others such as "let the free market regulate itself" and corporatism among others push me away from libertarianism.

    Many libertarians seem to overwhelmingly lean Republican/conservative over Democratic/liberal though, and polling numbers back this up. One of my friends actually said one time that "Libertarians are just Republicans trying to be edgy". In the end, some libertarian ideas are okay, but I would never vote for a Libertarian candidate because Progressivism appeals to me more.

    I do have to ask why you felt you had to add my name in the thread title?
     
  4. QueerTransEnby

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2014
    Messages:
    3,708
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Gender:
    Genderqueer
    Gender Pronoun:
    They
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    I voted for Gary Johnson in 2012 and identify closest to being a libertarian. The majority of them are actually LGBT friendly and pro-choice. Libertarianism actually rallies against the cronyism that the government has with big business. It seeks to strengthen small business, end PAC's, and also open Presidential debates to 3rd parties. They are a lot more moderate than Bryan and Becki make them out to be.
     
  5. dano218

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    2,165
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Gender:
    Male
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    This. Anyone who looks to Rand Paul as a definition of what true libertarian is fooling themselves. He is s joke and does not who's team he is on. He plays games with all Dems, Reps, and Moderates so yeah he is not anywhere near a libertarian. I am a moderate myself so I am in the middle of everything lol but Rand Paul has no trustworthiness cause he flip flops on every damn issue.
     
  6. LOL I didn't mean it in a very negative way, if that's what you're thinking. You and AwesomGaythiest have a reputation of being political and more left-leaning compared to libertarians. I just wanted to get your attentions and analyze your opinions on this subject matter.

    ---------- Post added 3rd Jun 2015 at 02:51 PM ----------

    Libertarians aren't corporatists at all. That was a total misconception I had of libertarians until I met a libertarian to whom I'm really close to. Corporatists believe in giving corporate handouts like generous tax breaks and subsidies. Libertarians believe in giving no corporate welfare of any kind.
     
    #6 anthonythegamer, Jun 3, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 3, 2015
  7. QueerTransEnby

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2014
    Messages:
    3,708
    Likes Received:
    7
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    Gender:
    Genderqueer
    Gender Pronoun:
    They
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Some people
    While I don't think he is a flip flopper personally, he has made his stance against the LGBT community abundantly clear.
     
  8. LiquidSwords

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,231
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    UK
    Who needs business and employment regulation anyway who's ever even benefited from minimum wage / maternity leave etc. Competition / advertising / price fixing laws who needs them if only we just let the market forces decide life will be so much better for employees and consumers.

    How come people who are earning least in society pay the lowest percentage of their income in tax how is that fair we need a flat rate even if does mean the very poorest will lose their homes / won't be able to eat. Much fairer

    What is the point of government services anyway who needs healthcare and police and firemen and road maintenance and rubbish collection and an armed forces and education the private sector could do this all so much better and in a much fairer way

    Everyone wins!
     
  9. In the case of the Paul libertarians, this is a bit similar to the Bush republicans. The fathers always seem to be much better than their sons.
     
  10. BryanM

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,894
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Columbia, Missouri
    Gender:
    Genderqueer
    Gender Pronoun:
    They
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Well, I have met quite a few Libertarians that are corporatists. Not in the same way many Republicans and Democratic followers are, but in the sense they want deregulation for a lot of things, including minimum wage and corporate taxes. There are a few Libertarians that don't believe these, but far too many who lead the Libertarian party do.

    There are also Libertarians such as Mary Ruwart that I despise (Ruwart, if you didn't know, advocated for the repeal of laws criminalising child pornography).
     
  11. dano218

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2013
    Messages:
    2,165
    Likes Received:
    26
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Gender:
    Male
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I agree he is not for us at all but I have to disagree about him not being a flip flopper. He changes his mind on many issues but I too like him standing up the government intrusion of our phone records and stuff like that.
     
  12. Spatula

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2012
    Messages:
    854
    Likes Received:
    25
    Location:
    Southeast US
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    You sound liberal, based on that description. Those are issues libertarians would consider quite important and central to their ideology. That's like saying "I consider myself a Christian but I'm not so certain about this whole God existing business".
     
  13. AwesomGaytheist

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2013
    Messages:
    6,909
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Gender:
    Genderqueer
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I guess I could be described as a social libertarian in theory, in that I believe that there's a fundamental right to privacy which prohibits the government from regulating your sex life/reproductive matters, and the like. However comparing me to a real libertarian, it's night and day. Libertarians are the people who are still upset about the "Government intrusion on our lives" in the fact that they have to wear seat belts, and that sort of thing.

    However libertarian economics is nothing more than a thinly veiled form of anarchy. They want no government at all: no taxes, no government services, no government regulation, no nothing. They think that greed (The one thing that disproves trickle-down economics from the start) and cronyism, which are both caused by a lack of government regulation, can be cured by getting rid of government intervention.

    If you want a real-life example, look no further than Kansas. Sam Brownback and company have turned Kansas into a libertarian Petri dish, where they've tried massive tax cuts for the last four and a half years thinking it would magically bring jobs to Kansas and balance the budget. What they got instead was the biggest budget shortfall in the country, $800 million, their state's credit downgraded twice, no new jobs, and the state quite literally auctioning off sex toys to try and close the budget gap. Now that that hasn't worked, they're planning to cut K-12 education even more, undermining state employees' pensions, all this while still wanting to eliminate the state's income tax altogether. So the next time someone tells you "It's a spending problem, not a revenue problem," ask them, "Then what's the matter with Kansas?"
     
  14. SemiCharmedLife

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2013
    Messages:
    3,062
    Likes Received:
    85
    Location:
    KY
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Libertarianism is great as long as you're a multimillionaire.
     
  15. Kaiser

    Kaiser Guest

    Joined:
    May 10, 2014
    Messages:
    2,867
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    кєηтυ¢ку
    The main issue of Libertarianism is:

    It relies too much on the individual to do 'the right/best thing'. While this is nice to look at on paper, it's hard to actually incorporate without a problem into a nation/society. It's the same problem Communism has.

    They both don't, or won't, take into account the asshole factor.

    That said, I do like the Libertarian approach to personal and civil rights. Do what you will, but harm none, basically. But you can't expect everybody to play right.
     
  16. Pret Allez

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2012
    Messages:
    6,785
    Likes Received:
    67
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Gender:
    Female (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Some people
    The problem with libertarian philosophy is that it doesn't properly recognize when aggression occurs. This renders the rest of the conclusions suspect. Some libertarians are epistemically incapable of recognizing certain behaviors as violence at all. This results in them making claims that look a lot more like shifting power from government to corporations than real freedom for individuals.

    Adrienne
     
  17. Christiaan

    Christiaan Guest

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2012
    Messages:
    745
    Likes Received:
    1
    I have never known a libertarian who wasn't entirely pretentious and didn't just repeat the same discredited arguments like some asinine broken record.

    When you get right down to it, the form of government that makes the most sense is that practiced by the Nordic states, which isn't really socialism in the conventional sense of the word but a community-centered system based on negotiation and compromise. It actually works. Not only does Sweden have the most equally distributed income in the world without a single exception, but they are ranked routinely by right-leaning business journals as among the best places in the world for doing business, along with the other Nordic states.

    Libertarianism is just very dumb people thinking that the only people capable of forcing anything on you is a democratically elected government, and they would have us ruled by an oligarchy controlled by business magnates, in which we don't get to vote at all. Let's see how that goes, but I can tell you right now that it's going to suck. The only reason that creditors don't deal with bad debts by coming and breaking your legs with a cudgel is that the government makes rules, called "regulations," that say they aren't allowed to do that. Democracy may be only a lesser form of tyranny, but it's the best tyranny we have. We're throwing that away, and the little wealthy despots that are taking its place are not going to be an improvement. Libertarianism, in practice, is no more than just a return to feudalism, and it's a stupid idea.
     
    #17 Christiaan, Jun 3, 2015
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2015
  18. Psaurus918

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2014
    Messages:
    1,109
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Utica, New York
    IMO libertarians are dangerous, luckily they don't have the support to win an election
     
  19. Purp

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2015
    Messages:
    489
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Virginia
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Other
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Wooooooooo yeeeeeeeaaaaaaahhhhh!!!!!
     
  20. guitar

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    2,062
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Southern Ontario, Canada
    I'm something of a libertarian in that I'm socially progressive & fiscally conservative, but I still prefer to have a social safety net, public health & schooling, etc.