Should trans athletes compete against cis athletes?

Not sure if this topic has been discussed yet, but...

My mom asked me my opinion on this last night. I'm not too sure how I feel. On one hand, I feel like trans women should be allowed to compete with cis women, and trans men with cis men. On the other hand, I feel like there may times when the trans athlete may be at an advantage or disadvantage. But this morning I was thinking that there are cis women who could give cis men a run for their money.

What do you folks think?

 

Yeah, they definitely should. It would be seen as discriminatory if only cis played with cis and trans played with trans.

 

Yes.

I wouldn't exactly be killing it in the half marathon if I ran in the women's division.

 

No. Because I am pretty sure there will be people who will take advantage of this and there are sooo many ways for people to take advantage of this

 

As a trans girl, I generally agree with this actually.

I mean, as of now I have more muscle than many professional cis women athletes. I could perform as well as they could with much less effort. It's not fair.


However. When I've been on hormones for many years my muscle mass will be the same (or less for me, since they're athletes), so I won't have an advantage anymore. Then I should definitely be allowed to compete.

So well, my stand point would be: In professional events at least; post-hormones (many years for MtF at least) trans people should be allowed to compete, but not pre-hormones.

 

I don't have an opinion on this, but I thought about it for a while. There are legitimate points to be made for and against.

edit: becki's approach is really interesting, I like it

 

Leave it up to science to figure out whether there's an advantage or not. I think with respect to muscle mass, the playing field could be leveled by hormone therapy. But, there are some physiological differences that just don't go away. For example, trans women will, on average, be 4-6 inches taller than cis women. That by itself seems like an advantage.

 

Um, yeah, duh.

 

I agree with Becki, before taking HRT for a few years there is definitely a problem for trans women to compete against ciswomen because of the increased muscle mass caused by testosterone, however, after transitioning we should be allowed to compete. It's pretty much the same as if a ciswoman would take testosterone and it should be treated as such. Even now, elite ciswomen athletes are being tested for high testosterone...

The height difference isn't a big deal considering the fact that there are around 10000 times the amount of ciswomen as there are transwomen and I'm sure that it means that for every tall transwoman there are at least 100 ciswomen of the same height or taller...

---------- Post added 13th Jul 2015 at 07:18 PM ----------

With regards to discrimination the general rule should be that if a transwoman is banned for any physical difference, all ciswomen with the same physical qualities should also be banned and if they aren't then the transwoman is being discriminated against. So if you ban a 2 meter tall transwoman you should also automatically ban all women of 2 meters and above...

 

We should ban Usain Bolt, because he is the fastest man, and it makes it unfair on the other guys because they aren't as fast.

 

^^^ This. Some people will have advantages over others, but that doesn't mean you should stop them from competing with others.

 

Yeah, I thought about that, because East Asians tend to be shorter, on average, than Europeans, but it evens out because there are more of them. So, with transwomen, the average height advantage (or shoulder width, foot/hand size, reach) can be countered by the cis advantage of numbers. But, the argument doesn't work when you apply it to trans men. They would be at a disadvantage in both respects.

I don't think that's the point though. Then it means we shouldn't have separate competitions for men and women at all, even though men have a biological advantage over women in most sports. Is that what you're suggesting?

 

Pretty much this.

Bone structure is another thing people bring up, but that's also something that varies between people and is ultimately a pretty negligible difference anyway.

 

I don't think it's a good idea imo. But hey if you want to go for it.

 

There is a MtF MMA fighter named Fallon Fox who is criticized because she wants to fight, and has been fighting, cis female fighters. There was one girl who she recently beat in just a matter of minutes, that specific fighter later said she "never felt so overpowered in her entire life". Joe Rogan said that it doesn't matter what Fallon identifies as, if she was born male she needs to fight other male fighters. He said that she still has the bone structure and strength of a man and that gives her a huge advantage over the other female fighters. To be honest, she is more built and muscular than the other women. But she actually has more estrogen and less testosterone in her system due to the hormones.

I'm actually not sure how I feel on this, I'm pretty split.

 

One thing to keep in mind is: Are women and men seperated athletically because their innate genders or gender identities are different or because their bodies are physically different? The answer is obviously because their bodies are physically different. Does anyone here believe that a trans woman's body is physically female before transitioning? If so, then why do we even bother to transition?

 

^I agree with this.

 

Maybe. I dunno. Could they measure bone mass/structure and muscle structure and try and maybe level the playing field on a case by case basis? But what really is a level playing field anymore, where money to train, and have the latest equipment/gear that shaves seconds off one's time can matter as much, especially in the Olympics? (like those new swim and ski suits) Very hard to say what a level playing field is anymore, so I dunno on this one.

 

I'm really two-minded on it, but I think I feel differently depending on the gender:

-FTM transpeople - on one hand they are disadvantaged (IF they transition later) as they are likely going to be smaller than other men (although small frame is a HUGE advantage in some sports - gymnastics and horseracing for e.g.). HOWEVER they possibly would have the advantage of optimal (and regularly monitored) testosterone levels due to supplementation. Its one of the reasons I was a bit dubious of that trans-model in mens health - fantastic spirit but at the same time perhaps at a slight bit of an unfair advantage to other entrants being at peak T.

-MTF transpeople - here is a lot trickier, again if transitioning later they are statistically more likely to be taller and more powerful than other female competitors. Now the added oestrogen supplementation (as well as the removal of testicles in cases of sexual reassignment) would likely remove any hormonal advantage but they might still maintain any growth advantage.

In summary there are just so many variables at play, when they transitioned, whether they are on hormones, how much hormones are they on (and would that class as doping), have they had bottom surgery (in the case of MTF). I think determining if competitors would have an unfair advantage is just too tricky, so outside of casual sports leagues I think I'd have to say no, perhaps not.

 

No, I believe they shouldn't until they get the surgeries needed or whatever they take.(sorry for my complete lack of knowledge regarding transgender issues)