We Are All the One Red Flower Amongst the Many Yellow Ones

[Shyvin]

I do not want to disrespect anyone here whatsoever! Let me say that first. I admire and respect all of you here. For those who don't know me my name is Steven and I am twenty-three years old. My hobbies include writing, reading, gaming, and just enjoying life. I am gay but still in the closet. Most of this information was under my handle to the side but I thought I would get it out of the way. (Darn so easy here but so hard in real life...)

I'm curious about stereotypes. I realize that to assume is to make a *cough*butt*cough* out of the people involved in said assumption, but most of the time stereotypes are stereotypes because they have a firm foundation relevant to the subject it connects to, but stereotypes can be taken too far. Especially in the media, and especially when only one stereotype is portrayed. Making things go askew.

I ramble, forgive me. I have never been an effeminate guy. And most people, through being mislead by media and/or the way they are brought up, expect a gay male or female to be either girly or guyish respectively. How can I blame them for thinking like this when this is how we have been brought up to perceive our community? I blame the media, and other sources that only act to enforce this image.

My question is to the LGBT community is this: Do you believe things need to be done to change how most people perceive us? Or do you feel like there is no problem and that nothing needs to be done? Maybe you think there is a problem but choose to just let things be, hoping that with time things will get better.

I'm interested to know what you think.

The only stereotype that I feel needs to change is that we are all heathens who plan on sacrificing your children above an alter of two phallic objects and chanting the words to all of Cher's songs.

What I mean to say is that homophobia is bad. Frankly, being stereotyped as a butchy girl or a femmy guy is no worse than assuming all Asians have strict families and got straight A's. Groups have stereotypes; it's the way of the world. It's only when those stereotypes feed racism or sexism or whatnotism that it becomes a problem.

[ColdSnap]

Originally Posted by Numfarh

The only stereotype that I feel needs to change is that we are all heathens who plan on sacrificing your children above an alter of two phallic objects and chanting the words to all of Cher's songs.

ahahahahahahahahahhahahah, oh my holy fucking shit i can't breathe xD

[Lexington]

First off, killer Nightcrawler avvy.

In regards to your post, I should point out that your point of view is rather common. Especially amongst gay folks who are either still in the closet, or in the process of coming out. They either cast blame towards the "stereotypically gay" people ("THEY're the reason people hate gays!") or towards the media for "perpetrating the stereotype". I'm glad you don't appear to be in the first group.

Do I blame the media? No, not at all. Why? Well, let's take a fake example. Let's say there's a sitcom about a family. And you cast Nightcrawler there as the next-door neighbor. Now, you and I know quite a bit about him. (Or I used to - they may have changed his backstory a lot.) He's from Germany, he was saved from being "burned as a witch" by Professor Xavier, he moved to New York, he lost his accent by watching old American movies on TV, he can teleport, he's got a prehensile tale, he had a serious girlfriend who actually WAS a witch, he stopped being an X-Man to become a Roman Catholic priest, etc etc. But on the show, he'd be the blue furry next-door neighbor. Why? Because they want to "keep the mutants down"? No, because he's not the focus of the show. The family next-door is. Everything that isn't essential to the plot gets whittled away.

And that's true of any character, especially the supporting ones. When you watch an action movie, and there's the scene with the older sergeant cop in his office, you're not going to know if he's trying to quit smoking, or once played defensive end for the 49ers, or got dumped for his wife for a friend. That is, unless it's important to the plot. And if it IS important to the plot, you're gonna have to get that information in there REALLY quickly. Have him grab his pack of cigarettes, then toss them away - "I gotta quit these things". There - established. Back to the story.

We've pretty much gotten to the point that we can make a character any race without it being important to the story. The hero's girlfriend can be Japanese without people wondering "OK, why is she Japanese?" And I think we're more or less getting to the point where a character can be gay without everybody wondering why. But I don't think we're quite there yet. If a character is gay, it's still for a reason - it'll factor into the plot somehow. And here's the thing - you can just put a character on the screen who is Japanese, and people will know. But say you want a character to be gay. How do you do that? If he's "stereotypical", presumably, people will know. But say he isn't. Then what? You're gonna need something to clue people in. He's gonna have to say something very blatant. Not just hint that "maybe", but make it known. He'll have to say, "I ran into my ex-boyfriend last night" or "I was in the gay pride parade last week when...", or he's gonna have to not just hug his boyfriend (they might just be friends) but kiss him. Fine as far is it goes, but it's (as they say) dead air time. Exposition. Time they could spend showing things blowing up. It's easier just to make him a bit more "stereotypically gay".

We're getting better. Whether you liked Will & Grace or not, Will was the first totally rounded, non-stereotypically-gay gay character on TV. And people accepted him as such. And I actually foresee a day when the sidekick cop kisses his boyfriend goodbye before going out on the mission, and it not being any big deal.

All that said, there's still the main point that it's the media. It's an entertainer not an instructor. It's not up to the media to instill the correct values into people. It CAN educate, but it shouldn't be forced to. (Otherwise, the first thing I'd suggest is that anytime somebody gets shot in a movie or TV show - even if it's just some minion from the enemy fortress - you show that person dying, and the funeral, and the people mourning the loss.)

So how do you fill in what the media doesn't? You provide a counterexample. I'm rather tall, a bit large and slow. I dress like a slob, listen to rock music, and have season tickets to a contact sport. And yes, I'm gay. As it says to the left there, the world knows. And, to my delight, the world doesn't care.

Lex

[BeautifulStranger]

I'm sick of the stereotype that gay men are also pedophiles. In my oppinion, that's the only stereotype that needs to be destroyed.
Like, if an older gay male were to develope a friendship with a younger boy, he'd get locked up.
Where as heterosexual men do it all the time. Some fine examples: Coach to player relationship, Scout master to boy scout relationship, Teacher to pupil relationship.

And as Lex said, provide counterexamples.
I'll use myself as example, since Lex used himself.
When I eat, I shovel food in. For lack of a better phrase, I eat like a man.
I love zombie movies. I'd pick 'Land of the Dead' over 'The Notebook' anyday.
To me and my friends, a good time is climbing things and jumping off of them.
I win belching contests all the time.
I think video games are the best. The more violent, the better.

Now let's be honest. People wouldn't think that a guy with hot pink hair and a swish in his step would act/think that way.
So prove the world wrong.

P.S. Imma get stereotypical for minute... Nightcrawler is without a doubt the best and sexiest of the X-Men.

[Meropspusillus]

Originally Posted by Wonderwall

I'm sick of the stereotype that gay men are also pedophiles. In my oppinion, that's the only stereotype that needs to be destroyed.
Like, if an older gay male were to develope a friendship with a younger boy, he'd get locked up.
Where as heterosexual men do it all the time. Some fine examples: Coach to player relationship, Scout master to boy scout relationship, Teacher to pupil relationship.

To be fair it's only idiots who believe that stereotype.

[Shyvin]

Wow, thanks for all the replies. You all bring up some good points.

(Sidenote: Nightcrawler is crazy awesome, my second favorite character. Gambit resides in first place and always will.)


The stereotype where people think homosexuals = pedophiles is another example that is carried through the media(media including the world wide web), and frankly just thinking about how people can be ignorant and stupid enough to believe it makes me so angry.

I agree that the media/television is not an instructional source but one for entertainment as a majority. However, there are many instructional and informative sources from both TV and the world wide web. Whenever I watch TV it is rarely to watch a sitcom or comedy. I tend to stick with the Discovery/Travel/Animal Planet/and other like channels. I strongly believe that the media correlates with society in a huge way, and makes a big impact on us. We don't really realize, or we take for granted, that our exposure to the human race is limited to where we live. The internet, and television mediums expand on that exposure twentyfold. These are the few areas where we all communicate to each other. It is subtle, sometimes it is not so subtle as well. But take a popular show where they introduce some great characters, you follow their story and become emotionally invested in them. Then one day you find out that Mike or whomever is gay. What kind of reaction do you think that would get? It is a step forward and things like this push our community out of the stereotypical cage a lot of us feel we are trapped behind.

The media is an indicator of the status of how accepted we are. Not completely, but the impact is substantial enough.

Feel free to disagree, or add if you want. I kind of rushed and I'm always open to discussion.

[Lexington]

>>>But take a popular show where they introduce some great characters, you follow their story and become emotionally invested in them. Then one day you find out that Mike or whomever is gay. What kind of reaction do you think that would get? It is a step forward and things like this push our community out of the stereotypical cage a lot of us feel we are trapped behind.

Actually, that does happen. Heck, I remember it happening way back in the 80s. There was a pretty dopey sitcom called "Gimme a Break" about a widowed policeman who had a housekeeper helping him raise his three daughters. The cop's brother made a few appearances in early episodes, and then they had an episode where the brother admitted to the cop that he was gay. It was actually fairly well done. But then the writers sort of found themselves in a bind. If they didn't show the brother much - which they hadn't previously - it would look like they were "hiding the gay guy". If they had him show up, but not talk about being gay, then it would look like they were trying to "sweep his homosexuality back in the closet". But if they referenced it, it would once more swing the emphasis of the show from the main characters back to him and his homosexuality. It was - and is still - a weird sort of balancing act.

And remember - there's a LOT of issues to deal with. Homosexuality - tolerance and stereotypes - are two. But if they don't do an episode about child abuse, does that mean they're in favor of it? If there isn't anyone in a wheelchair or on crutches or blind in the show, are they showing they don't care about this group of people? And all of this, mind you, is window dressing - their MAIN focus is supposed to be on writing good stories about interesting characters. And we've seen how often they fail at THAT.

Lex

[Mickey]

I may get shit for this,but...oh well!
What I don't like is say,when there is a gay pride parade. The news coverage seems to show the stereotypical gay person,( drag queens,guys who's asses are hanging out of chaps,dykes on bikes,etc.) This is the view that people watching see.
I think that is a reason that the straight community think this is how all gays are.
Don't get me wrong here. It doesn't bother me,at all.
However, if this is the only side of gay people that others see,then it will be thought
that this is how all gay people are.
I think that it would benefit us more to show the public that this is not the "norm".
Show people with their families,just everyday folks. The more they see the stereotypical
gay person,the more it will be thought that this how we all are.
Just my opinion.....

[Lexington]

>>>What I don't like is say,when there is a gay pride parade. The news coverage seems to show the stereotypical gay person,( drag queens,guys who's asses are hanging out of chaps,dykes on bikes,etc.) This is the view that people watching see.

Again, there's a reason for that.

Maybe you've heard the old saying about the newspaper editor who gets a story from a reporter about a dog biting a man. "Dog Bites Man? That's not a story. Man Bites Dog - now THAT's a story!" The media wants eyes and ears. They want people to look. CNN.com doesn't put Britney Spears' on their main page because they really think it's news. They put her there because it gets hits. More people click on that than on the latest from Darfur or the stock exchange, so even though it's definitely not as "newsworthy", she gets a slot.

I think back to the last gay pride parade I watched (a few months back). There were volunteer groups and politicians and biking groups and everything else. But it wouldn't surprise me if only the guys in rainbow shorts got on the news. Why? Partially because it refers back to what I said previously. It's a shortcut. They show a guy in rainbow shorts - Gay Pride Parade, everyone thinks. They show a guy in a suit waving? Or fifty people on bikes? They'd have to explain that yes, these are people in a gay pride parade. And, secondly, it gets people looking. And talking. (News organizations didn't add the "tell us what you think" comment sections on their websites because they care what you think. They did it because it keeps you on the site longer.) In short, guy in suit -> dog bites man. Guy in rainbow shorts -> man bites dog.

Lex

Mickey, I actually agree with you. Why can't the gay community take pride in itself in a more "normal" way? I've never seen a pride parade, and I have seen but a few pictures of them online, but every one I've seen is a stereotyipcal man or woman wearing stereotypical clothes (or stereotypical lack thereof), doing stereotyipcal things, and so on. I've never seen a picture that looks like any old person off the street in a pride parade picture. I don't care how people want to express themselves, but it seems like only the stereotypical gays are choosing to do so. (I don't mean to offend by this, sorry if I failed to make it inoffensive.)

Mankind will never be rid of stereotypes, at least not in my lifetime. It's really useless to try and change them/diminish them. People are going to think what they have been thinking for their whole lives; you're not going to change that short of brainwashing them. I agree with above posters though, some stereotypes such as pedophilia, being "heathens who plan on sacrificing your children above an alter of two phallic objects and chanting the words to all of Cher's songs," and other such stereotypes based on pure ignorance and fear need to been taken care of.

[Greggers]

homophobia.

I think once we break through that, we break through all the stereotypes. No more being stamped as "man wearing a wig and high-heels with a lisp" and "woman wearing lumberjack coat with a she-mullet and beer". I think as a minority we should understand that stereotypes are a horrible thing. There is no such thing as the "cookie cutter gay" because we are all diffrent. Some people feel like women trapped in a mans body, vise versa, and some feel like a man, act like a man, but are still attracted to men. Everything i have seen and heard in this world just brings me to break down more and more stereotypes. The word itself means to judge someone based on appearance and first impressions, and thats just really NOT cool. You cant see an asian and stamp them "bad driver", my driving teacher WAS asian and he kicked some ass. The thing i like the most about Canada is how diverse we are, it really helps to stick the nail in the coffin of stereotypes. When you are exposed to many different cultures and people groups you see how similar they are to you, and how different they are at the same time. Frankly, if everyone was this cookie cutter stereotype kind of person this world would really suck. Stereotypes only appear when you get alot of the same kind of people together. Like minded people with like minded ignorance. This is why so many homophobic people change once they KNOW one of us. Once they can put a face to the stereotype they will be able to break it. So the more people come out of the closet, the more we can fight the battle. Alas, thats the hard part.

[Kryz]

Originally Posted by Shyvin

I'm curious about stereotypes. I realize that to assume is to make a *cough*butt*cough* out of the people involved in said assumption, but most of the time stereotypes are stereotypes because they have a firm foundation relevant to the subject it connects to..

And most people, through being mislead by media and/or the way they are brought up, expect a gay male or female to be either girly or guyish respectively. How can I blame them for thinking like this when this is how we have been brought up to perceive our community?..

Stereotypes aren't created only by the media, it's the society in it's whole. And it wasn't created by the community on porpoise, ppl thinks gay guys are like that bcoz that's how they see most gay guys are. Why? Bcoz ppl doesn't knows who's gay and who's not, unless it's a Travesty or a Transgender or something, then ppl are sure these ppl are gay, and as that's the only kind of gay ppl they are sure are gay; they believe that any gay person will be like this... I dunno if I explained myself there. My point is that most of these are archetypes based on gender and not stereotypes.

[Greggers]

It's really useless to try and change them/diminish them. People are going to think what they have been thinking for their whole lives; you're not going to change that short of brainwashing them.

Wow. Sorry, but wow. I cant believe anyone would say that. Its NOT useless, and you can fight it more than you think. Once you can put a face to the stereotype you will understand its wrong. If you dont have alot of asian friends, your prone to accept those stereotypes. If you dont have alot of black friends, your prone to accept those sterotypes. The same thing goes for gays. But when you see diversity in action, you will understand that no two people were or have ever been made the same. No one perfectly fits into any category without first changing themselves. Do you think "head cheerleader dates captain of football team" is something thats real? In alot of cases its something they feel like they "have" to do, so its a completely fake relationship for the sake of the stereotype. Everyone is so different, so unique, and has something different to bring to the world. Im not saying its easy to break an entire stereotype as viewed by the world, but its super easy to break one persons view at a time. All you have to do is show someone your not what the world has stamped you as.

[James2612]

Unfortunately these stereotypes make it harder for some to come out!! One of the main reasons it has taken me soooo long to come out was because i didnt want people to think i was like what they see on the TV and so on!! My insecurities was made worse by this! This was some thing that i had to work on!!

I do think that media needs to take more responsibility on breaking down the stereotypes! I understand why it is easier for them to play on this, but it does not make it easier on the rest of us!!!

Originally Posted by Loveislove

Wow. Sorry, but wow. I cant believe anyone would say that. Its NOT useless, and you can fight it more than you think. Once you can put a face to the stereotype you will understand its wrong. If you dont have alot of asian friends, your prone to accept those stereotypes. If you dont have alot of black friends, your prone to accept those sterotypes. The same thing goes for gays. But when you see diversity in action, you will understand that no two people were or have ever been made the same. No one perfectly fits into any category without first changing themselves. Do you think "head cheerleader dates captain of football team" is something thats real? In alot of cases its something they feel like they "have" to do, so its a completely fake relationship for the sake of the stereotype. Everyone is so different, so unique, and has something different to bring to the world. Im not saying its easy to break an entire stereotype as viewed by the world, but its super easy to break one persons view at a time. All you have to do is show someone your not what the world has stamped you as.

First off, I'd like to apologize and say I wasn't paying attention when I typed "change." I meant "destroy."

Secondly, there are over 6.7 billion people in the world. I'd like to wish good luck to whoever is putting together the collaborative effort to convince the world, person by person, that stereotypes are wrong.

Thirdly, I'm not sure you realize just how extremely, disgustingly, ridiculously ignorant and stupid a significant percentage of the US is. (I'm not saying everyone is like this, or even the majority, but this group is definitely there.) I don't know how it is for the rest of the world. Some people here cling to their stereotypes with their dying breaths and rigor mortis-fingers. You can be the best person in the world one day, but tell them you're gay/black/female/Muslim/etc, and you're dead to them. Others just don't care enough to change, and will continue to apply stereotypes even if you prove them wrong.

For some people, it may be "super easy to break one persons view at a time," but that absolutely does not apply to everyone. I'm just saying that I can't forsee the abolishment of stereotypes anytime soon.

[Lexington]

The thing about many of the gay stereotypes, though, is that they're not falsehoods. There ARE plenty of gay guys who are effeminate, say, and who like going to clubs and dancing. They're not true of all us, sure, but they're true of enough of us. And to me, the biggest problem isn't "people are going to think all gays are like that". The biggest problem is the implication made there - that there's something wrong with being "like that".

Think of a positive gay stereotype for a minute. "Gays make fantastic friends for straight women." Again, like the other stereotypes, it's probably true for some of us, but not for others. Some gays make crappy friends, period. (Not because they're gay, but because they're human, and some humans are like that, and gays aren't immune.) But I've never seen people actively campaigning against that stereotype. I've never heard people say "Why does everyone have to think gays make good friends for straight women? That's so unfair." Why? Because it's positive. It paints us in a good light. We don't mind being painted with that generic brush, simply because we think it makes us look better.

But there are those that DO fight the "gays are effeminate" label, for the reasons given above. "They're going to think we're all like that." So? What the hell is wrong with being effeminate? "Nothing, but it's not true of me"? So what? Would you care if they thought you were rich? Or liked the color red? No? Then why is it worrisome that they might think you're effeminate?

...think about it.

Lex

Hmm... Good point Lexington. Very good point. Actually you've made me think...

You see, I used to be anti-effeminate. But really, is there REALLY any problem with it? Or are the people who really care insecure about themselves?

Take metalheads for example. We're stereotyped as being macho as fuck, drinking beer, etc etc. And a TON of metalheads make fun of gays. And why? Gays are not threatening metalheads. Or they think they are and they're insecure. So one group that gets stereotyped stereotypes another group.

I hope I made myself clear, this took a LONG time to articulate.

Actually yes I think we do need to do something about that, I'm so sick of people telling me I can't be a lesbian because I'm reasonably feminine. Also that in a relationship there is always going to be one person noticeably more feminine then the other - this was one of the things my mum asked me when I came out to her "So are you the male or female?" I got me a bit pissed off because as I said before I am relatively feminine and am more attracted to feminine women so i don't think it has to be that way.

[Mickey]

Lex, I am not saying anything against anyone. I was only saying that the media shows only stereotypical gay people. I'm NOT saying how people are is wrong. I actually love drag queens! All I was saying is,while,yes,there are gay people who are more stereotypical,that equal time should be taken to show the people that are your"average joes". I was thinking along the lines of bigotry. The reason I stated what I did was,I've read a lot of people's comments,on other sites,and many voice this opinion. That's all. Peace!