Feminists! I have some Questions

Wow, that's a lot of questions. Let me see if I can try to answer them from my point of view. I am a feminist, abeit not a very politically active one.

1) I think to some, the different and contradictory sections of feminism may discredit it, but, in my book, feminism is more broad than just black feminism or pro-life feminism. To me, it is all the same thing. If you truly are a feminist, you'll support equality regardless of gender, race or religion: Men, women, trans folks, non-binary, african american, Muslim, Christian, etc. As far as pro-life and that type of thing go, I have no idea. I know many women who are pro-choice but would never choose to have an abortion. They simply understand that each woman has the right to decide for her own body.

2) Some people just have misinformed or warped perceptions of what feminism is supposed to be, and thus use it as a weapon or a statement other than what was intended. Yes, they do discredit feminists in general by using a term meant for equality to promote bias and intolerance. I don't know whether I have the right to qualify another's beliefs as 'feminist enough' or not, though. So I just stay away from that, personally.

3) I agree with your view of men as feminists. Men too, get hurt by the patriarchal system of gender roles. I have seen many men in my life struggle with emotional trauma due to their parents' adherence to strict gender norms. I think it is important for men to be feminists because, let's face it, who's going to listen to a bunch of 'whiny' women in today's patriarchal bullsh!t? Of course men can and should be feminists! We're all in this equality thing together!

4) I'm not one to get into big debates with people who are set in their ways. I'd just as well leave them be. They'll make a fool of themselves on their own. No need to try to help them. I honestly feel sorry for people so set in their ways that they are blind to what is so good right in front of them. I used to be like that before I came out to myself and loOK AT ME NOW! WHOO!

Thanks for the questions, they've sure given me a lot to think about and I enjoyed it!

 

Okay, I shall answer questions 2 and 3 because I feel most comfortable answering them.


2) My opinion is that there is no one pure form of feminism that is perfect; but even so, many feminists hold views, grounded in feminism or sub-sections under feminism, that are not acceptable.
Notable are the so-called man-hating feminists. For example, there was this feminist in my class. She had lots of good views on gender equality, sure. But she never hung out with guys and was angry if she was with another guy in a group project or so. We didn't get along at all. As soon as I came out as trans, though - much nicer.
Obviously it was great that she was not a transphobe, like some feminists are. But it was not great that she had a prejudice toward men in general.
What to do? Well, you can try to talk gently and so on.
But such opinions are not acceptable.

3) I have male friends who are relentless feminists and who are so "radical" they make women cringe or turn their heads at their inappropriate behavior.
I see no reason why they should not have a part to play in the feminist struggle.
The campaign He for She is worth to bring up here. It is a campaign where men stand up for women's rights. I think it's a great effort.

Feminist 4 life <3

 

Umm... I'm sill barely a legal adult but I'm a feminist and an atheist I'll have a shot at this. Why not?

1): I feel if all could be united on the best and most accurate form of it that would be fantastic, and we would probably get a lot further, and probably have more credibility from sane people. It's nearly impossible to get everyone in a group to agree on anything though. But like you said, Christianity is split into several sub-groups and it manages to dominate the USA, no matter how much it contradicts itself, and it's sub-groups contradict eachother, it is taken as fully credible by many. So, I don't think being split up really helps but it isn't uncommon in any group.

2): They seem to be highly confused individuals, and while they have a right to identify as whatever they want, it will not make their views accurate or credible. You could call yourself a equal rights activist and join Westboro Baptist, It won't be an accurate title.
I feel they should put themselves in an environment and think to themselves without bias, "Why is X wrong?" or "How is X right?". If in the end their ideas still highly contradict eachother, and possibly threaten equal rights, it's probably best not to take them seriously and move on, unless they somehow gain too much political power. Then, action should be taken.

3): Again, I feel they can identify as a feminist if they choose. However, since men aren't experiencing misogyny directly some of their ideas might be a bit less accurate. Most cis men aren't exactly exposed to misogyny on a regular basis, and often have to base their views on what they see. This isn't always the case, as a cis man might live with a corrupted stepfather who abuses the female members of his family. I can also see how a trans man could be effected by the patriarchy in a negative way, though. If mistaken for a woman by the less educated public the same things can go wrong, or even worse. One of those medieval white supremacist "traditional marriage" idiots might say "Oh, you think you're a man?" and express hostility because "You can never be a man, because we're better than you and my bible right here is proof. Get back in your kitchen so your husband can yell at you" If you ask me, these idiots should not be allowed to roam the public, and should be committed to some sort of educational rehab program. So yes, others can be feminists but they're often going to need direct exposure to the insanity of our society.

4): I feel anti-feminists are often simply improperly educated and a product of patriarchal society. If people were educated about these subjects properly in school, maybe they wouldn't exist? The rest are probably terribly child indoctrinated into bigotry and nearly impossible to save. Parents are allowed to teach vulnerable children vile ideas, you know?

MRA's are simply dumbasses who don't deserve to be taken seriously. They're like the "religious freedom" aka "Tolerate our Intolerance" type fundies who claim to be oppressed, despite being in power and being the majority. I pity them, for they must have suffered some sort of injury to the head as children and need medical help. Their only oppression is not being recognized as a mental disorder.
Either of the above are obviously not in prime thinking state, and should be avoided.

Anyways. That's it. Thank you for your time! Hope I didn't offend anyone. May one day equality be served! (&&&)

 

1. Nope, liberals are a wide and diverse group of people, conservatives also. With a large philosophical, social, anything group you will get disagreement, that's the way it is. I mean, socialists and communists live in the left wing, they definitely don't have alot in common :/

2. Argue with the bad ones, simple. If they disagree that trans folk aren't women, they are perpetuating oppression of others, which is similar to what is happening to women.

3. I am a dmab, I'm a feminist ally. Absolutely, anyone can be feminists (and everyone should be!), because feminism means the belief in social, economic and political equality between men and women. If you don't, then you're really admitting to being an asshat.

However, many feminists are saying that men or anyone other than women should call themselves ally, because that would be like if you support the black panthers but you are not black, you are a black panther. Nope, you're an ally.

In the end, feminism started as a way to gain women equal rights, but the evolution of sociology has led to people being aware of the complex socio-economical forces that disallow anyone that is not white, straight and male to have the same privileges as they do. It is simply obvious that when you tick all those boxes, when you hand in your resumee, or go to school, you are will be treated better on average. You straight up have more privilege. The more you stray from that "norm", the worse you will be treated. Transwomen are women too, they should not denied their right to stand by other feminists as sufferers of the patriarchy. At the end of the day, they suffer the same problems as women, if not more :/. When oppressed people (people with mental illnesses, people with disabilities, ethnic minorities, LGBTQIAA+ people, anyone other than men) start pulling down one another, people need to realise that they are helping the oppressors that are pulling your oppressed people down. This is because there is alot of evidence to suggest the same people that are racist, prejudice towards mentally ill etc, are sexists too. In other words, the people who are pulling down the LGBTQ community, are the same people that pull down the women's rights, rights for the people with mental illness, people with disabilities and finally, ehtnic minorities.

 

Even though I'm not a feminist, I still have every right to post on this thread so ha!

Anyway, there really are no true feminists. If they claim to be feminists and they truly believe in themselves to be, then yes they ARE feminists, no matter sexual orientation.

It all comes down to if they truly, deeply in their hearts believe that women should have the same rights as men (except they currently do now, I mean, this is a first world country, no need for it), that they deserve equal treatment, then yes, they're feminists.

However, feminism are only about women's right which I believe were solved quite some time ago but you don't want to hear that.

As much as I strongly DESPISE feminism, if it feels right for you, then go ahead and pursue.


As a side note: there's nothing wrong with anti-feminists or MRAs. I guess they just see the bullshit that is third wave feminsim.

Feminism back then was plenty useful when women were seen as second class citizens who should be working in the kitchen.

Nowadays, why is there a need for feminism in a first world country? I don't get it. It's completely useless at this point and there shouldn't be any shaming of women who REFUSE to be feminists.

Do you honestly believe all women should be feminists?

To me, feminism is brainwashing with false statistics and NO, I am NOT against equality for all genders. I just refuse to be labeled as a feminist.

 

slut-shaming is very wrong. Why? because if a man takes a bunch of pictures of himself naked, and goes out and has sex with a ton of women, he is suddenly "awesome". If a woman does it, suddenly she's "disgusting".
I'm pro-choice as well. If you don't want to have a child, and it isn't even damn born yet, than you shouldn't have to have it. You shouldn't have to go through pain and agony when it can be avoided, and it isn't even a child yet. It's like calling an egg a chicken, or a acorn an oak. Men will never understand this.
You aren't a hypocrite for believing in equality when it doesn't apply to yourself, I mean the straight ally type isn't a hypocrite for advocating for somebody else's rights.

 

Hey come on I made a thread for non-feminists just stay outta this.

This is an interesting opportunity for both sides to browse the other's thread and get a glimpse into what the other side thinks without interruption or arguments distracting from the conversation.

 

Disagreement simply means that some feminists are wrong. I think we can all agree that a feminism of the 1960s and 1970s that excluded women of color and queer women in North America was a feminism that had no value. What kinds of feminism have value? Intersectional ones.

Feminists with unacceptably narrow or violent views are still feminists. They are just feminists we need to attack with all of our strength. Ultimately, their viewpoints need to be annihilated. We can be honest enough to admit we carry the same banner, even if they are wrong. We just need to make the movement a very inhospitable place for them.

Clearly men can be feminist. I know a lot of men who are, and I trust them every bit as much as my sisters. Some men who claim to be feminist are not. Some men who are feminist fuck up a lot and try to take center stage. They just means they are human; we fuck up. It's how we listen, adjust, reconcile, and heal afterwards that separates a good ally from someone who alienates us.

I don't talk to MRAs. MRAs need to be closely monitored, de-anonymized and doxxed. MRAs are targets.

Did you know that Paul Elam, founder of A Voice for Men penned a length essay arguing for jury nullification in rape trials? Scary shit.

I know activists are supposed to communicate and try to reason with our most difficult opponents.

I just believe in taking a different path with my feminism. I'll protect those who need it, but I believe in recognizing real enemies. I'm here not to reason with the enemy, but to fight him. Either by force or forensics.

~ Adrienne

 

Does that even exist?


( sorry for butting into your thread ^^" )

 

I'm not going to say reasonable MRAs don't exist. I just haven't found one yet. (And it wasn't for want of looking. I went to a Voice for Men to try and find one. But instead I found Paul Elam and his rape trial categorical jury nullification essay.) But let's imagine what a reasonable MRA would look like.

I imagine him to be a person who thinks that violence and discrimination are not okay, but he thinks that issues I have raised are not systemic problems of discrimination (that is, he denies that discrimination is taking place, or he thinks it's justified) or systematic problems of violence (for example, he might acknowledge the violence but say the problem is individualized rather than systemic.)

The problem I have engaging him here is not that he is motivated by hatred of women. He may not be motivated by any kind of hatred. The problem is that he doesn't see himself having a role or a duty to recognize the structure of power that he benefits from, because he sees himself as entirely self-made, succeeding or failing on his own merits--a narrative that we know is very powerful, despite being empirically dubious. (It's true just enough of the time that people believe it, but as a fact of the matter, inequalities between groups wouldn't exist unless either one of two things was true: unjust power dynamics exist to keep one group down to benefit the other, or the subordinate group really is inferior to the other. Since we're not debating whether men and women are equally resourceful and competent in the business world and other important facets of public life, then we clearly have to reject the second option. The power dynamic must be causing the inequality, so there must necessarily be a llimitation to the supposedly meritocractic system we have.)

I choose not to talk to him not because he's an irreconcilable enemy who can't come around. I simply don't have the patience for him, because I'm too busy protecting my sisters, and myself.

~ Adrienne

 

Okay, so I'm not allowed to voice my opinion and at least have a different perspective of the topic.

Anyway, I'm really sorry about my comment. I just wanted to offer a different perspective is all and I hope I didn't offend anybody. We cool now?

 

I concur with the above. You're stirring up conflict that's not productive, making uncited and generalizing claims about feminists that we don't support. If you want to talk to feminists and ask what they actually believe, write to one of us and ask specific questions.

We don't ignore issues that affect men. We just don't want to be silenced, especially under the guise of giving "equal time" to issues that affect men. There are many issues of immediate concern. I have personally spoken out against misandry. I will not be generalized as toxic.

LesbianThrasher, you have a posting style that involves making inflammatory claims, then either stating people who get offended are morally or intellectually deficient, or offering perfunctory apologies. The empathy you projected in other discussions is very suspect, and I don't have confidence that you argue anything in good faith.