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Virtue

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by Invidia, Aug 4, 2015.

  1. Invidia

    Invidia Guest

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    Another philosophical excursion, that I felt I wanted to share with you peeps here. I hope it's interesing ^.~
    And you can take it as three questions, if you want to. Or just blab, whatever, that works too.
    The three questions, then, would be:
    1. Which virtue do you, practically, hold as the highest virtue?
    2. Which do you hold as the highest virtue, irrespective of how you practice?
    3. Which virtue do you have a hard time seeing as inherently valuable?


    Those were the questions I had in mind and I'll try to answer them.

    1. I think the virtue I uphold the most on a normal day is truth/honesty. I have many exceptions, notably to people I don't trust, but being open and honest about my opinions on things and how I feel is something I exercise a lot and give a lot of priority to.
    2. The highest virtue attainable, according to me, is love/compassion. Sharing love with another human being or another animal person is the highest virtue one can strive for according to me.
    3. The one virtue I can't fully relate to that others seem to hold so high is intelligence. Honestly, I see no inherent value in having a high capacity imbued in one's neurons to perform mental processes. I mean, real stupidity can be annoying... but I don't think intelligence is inherently a good thing. Some even become arrogant, or try to measure the worth of a person by their IQ.

    And also, is virtue even real or is it just a part of something greater and much more fluid than seperate attributes?

    IDK :lol: I didn't sleep much yesterday :sleep: But any thoughts on what is virtue in our society, and what you value, is very welcome. Ethical debate is also welcome, as long as everyone remembers the golden rule. :slight_smile:

    Whooo ^.^
     
    #1 Invidia, Aug 4, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2015
  2. Im Hazel

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    1. IDK. I actually like intelligence from a practical perspective. Intelligence gets jobs done. You are correct in that it isn't the absolute best thing ever, but practically, what virtues actually hold any sway at all? I mean, IDK what you really mean, but for example, chastity is a virtue, usually. In any practical situation chastity makes no difference.

    2. I'll go with love. <3

    3. As said above, chastity. IDK, probably some other ones like faith. Faith seems useless, often.
     
  3. Radioactive Bi

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    I think I'd say the virtue of benevolence.

    Happy days :slight_smile:
     
  4. alilnervous

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    Willingness to change for the better when you know you are wrong for first two, loyalty for the third >:slight_smile:. Just kidding. Agreeableness.
     
    #4 alilnervous, Aug 12, 2015
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  5. Florestan

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    1. Creativity. You could argue it's not a virtue, since many great artists have been horrible people. Still, I think the desire to bring beauty into the world does count for something. It's what I'm best at, and it's guided the course of my life.

    2. I consider love the highest virtue. I don't say I live by that as well as I wish, but I try. All too often it's easier to want to love than it is to actually do it.

    3. Trust. I know it's good when it's given to people who deserve it. But there are so many people in the world asking for blind trust when they've done nothing to earn it. Sometimes it seems like it would be safer to just keep everyone at arm's length.

    I believe virtue exists, but that it's not just a set of rules. You can follow rules without understanding why they matter. Individual virtues are all different expressions of the highest virtue, love. It's a way of seeing the world that lights the way through life.
     
  6. KayJay

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    1. Sacrifice: Sacrifice is probably the one I'd pick which I hold myself to the most. I actually had to really think about it which had me in deep thought for like 20 minutes. I realized that I've given up a lot of things for people in my past, usually just to make someone happy even if it hinders me. Whether that be emotionally, physically or financially I still seem to do this for some reason. I'm still doing it to this day! It's actually this question which has made me realize that this is probably my strongest virtue.

    2. Fortitude: This is something I admire in any person when I see it. It's hard to explain why. I suppose there's something beautiful in people who can make it through some of the tough battles of life. It seems like a virtue that goes along with a lot of others. Sort of like the building block to other good traits.

    3. Vitality: I'm not sure if this counts as a virtue but if I had to think of something I'd define a virtue which I could use to answer the question it would have to be vitality. If I'm looking at it in the physical than vitality is definitely the least important to me of all things I'd label virtues. If looking at mental vitality than this is why this virtue was so hard to choose. On the other hand since basically all virtues are some sort of thing I appreciate in people in all various forms, it is like picking the worst of the best.
     
    #6 KayJay, Aug 12, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2015
  7. Kaiser

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    You couldn't handle my code.

    =P
     
  8. Aussie792

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    Personally, I think it's important that I be humble and empathetic, which are harder in practice than in theory to be. To try to reinforce that I am nobody's superior and that each person's emotions are equally or more legitimate than my own is very important.

    However, on a general level, I prefer wisdom. Wisdom to me means a high level of intellectual and emotional maturity. Without caring, intelligence becomes narcissistic and frivolous. Without intelligence, kindness is little more than an outburst here and there of naive affection, and thus lacks meaning. To be caring is not valuable if you cannot intellectually process who is deserving of care and why we must care, which makes for erratic and inconsistent sentiments of goodwill. Wisdom means that loyalty isn't a simple attachment to the familiar, and that one's values fit consistently with one's actions, allow for repentance when necessary and for the betterment of humanity. Wisdom cannot be selfish; that is simply the intelligent, individualistic ambition of youth or the arrogance of the bitter but smart elderly. Education and experience are, as far as I can see, the only ways to achieve it. While I obviously am not wise now, lacking higher education and experience, I hope I might eventually become so.

    My last response is actually going to be a bit of a cop-out. I don't believe that justice is an inherently valuable virtue, at least not in the Aristotelian sense. That's not because I don't value justice, but because I think justice is a matter of deontology and consequentialism, which must be guided by the virtues of kindness, intelligence, empathy and so on, but cannot exist as an individual virtue on its own. Rules are not a virtue and consequences are not virtues, either, being the result of how we apply virtue to practice. Justice exists outside of the self, and so I cannot feel that it's a true virtue unto itself.

    But for any of my responses, I think it's more valuable to consult actual philosophers who know what they're saying. :lol:
     
    #8 Aussie792, Aug 13, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2015
  9. Lawrence

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    1. Which virtue do you, practically, hold as the highest virtue?
    Curiosity; it's probably gonna be my cause of death.
    2. Which do you hold as the highest virtue, irrespective of how you practice?
    Love. It's one of the most powerful weapons in existence. Of course, I don't really use love like some "power of friendship" skill in anime. To spare you from reading an epic (I'm tempted to brag)... love has more uses than hate.
    3. Which virtue do you have a hard time seeing as inherently valuable?
    Chastity.

    If I had to take a stab at the virtues I value highly (this is more about "what I believe deep down" than what I think it is best to believe), it would look something like this;

    1. Love
    2. Curiosity
    3. Trust (I have trust issues, but there are some amazing exceptions)
    4. Health (people have manipulated my concern about my constitution score)
    5. Creativity (thinking outside the box, blah blah blah)
    6. Independence (unsure about this one, but people say I'm "antisocial" lol)
    7. Intelligence (I'm clever, but I'm not very wise, so I tend to be blunt)
    8. Courage (maybe this one ain't too healthy)
    9. Pleasure (I've even used it like unhealthy ways to escape problems)
    10. Justice (maybe a twisted little obsession with my own sense of justice)
     
  10. Aldrick

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    1. Which virtue do you, practically, hold as the highest virtue?
    Courage. Without courage no other virtue is possible.

    2. Which do you hold as the highest virtue, irrespective of how you practice?
    Once again, courage. Courage must always be the first virtue, because no other virtue is possible without it. How can you even engage in a virtue like love or empathy, if you don't first have the courage to be vulnerable with another person? How can you stand for anything, if you don't first have courage enough to use your voice? Courage is the virtue upon which all other virtues stand.

    I fall short of living up to my virtues all the time, but when I fail it is always because I have lacked courage.

    3. Which virtue do you have a hard time seeing as inherently valuable?
    Self-Discipline. By it's very nature it is self-punishing and self-defeating. It used to be on my list, but I've removed it, and as I got out of that mindset my life improved dramatically. I used to beat myself up all the time when I fell short. Replacing discipline on my list is Self-Devotion.

    I had a conflict between my virtues. I added Self-Compassion to my list, to try and counter a lot of negativity I had toward myself for all the ways and reasons I've fallen short. However, Self-Discipline required me to constantly beat myself up for those very reasons. I merged the two concepts together with Self-Devotion. Instead of beating myself down for my failures, I find ways to build myself up so that I can find the courage necessary to take the steps I need to fulfill my goals.

    Here is the difference between Discipline and Devotion:
    Discipline: "control that is gained by requiring that rules or orders be obeyed and punishing bad behavior."

    Devotion: "a feeling of strong love or loyalty : the quality of being devoted."

    I love myself, and I want myself to be successful. What would I say to my best friend if they were falling short? Would I beat them down when they are already down, or would I try to motivate them to get back up and fight harder? If I wouldn't beat down my best friend with negativity, why would I treat myself any differently? Don't I deserve to give myself the love and compassion that I show others?

    This was the shift in my thinking that caused me to leave behind Self-Discipline and move toward Self-Devotion. This is a commitment to my success and well being, because I love myself, and I want to see myself become the best version that I can be. It doesn't mean that I won't fall short, because it is inevitable that I will, but instead of beating myself up over it, I pick myself up, dust myself off, and get back up to continue the fight. The change in myself was remarkable.
     
  11. Invidia

    Invidia Guest

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    @Florence Creativity is indeed something beautiful <3

    @KayJay You reminded me of a song. <3 "Sacrifice" by Edguy. It's power metal... not sure if you'd like it... :kiss:

    @Aussie OMG, we think alike :eek: I also think head and heart must work as one if you are to achieve full potential in helping others.

    @Hazel, Lawrence I also have a hard time with seeing chastity as an inherently valuable virtue... Sex is fun :lol:

    @Aldrick Very interesting about self-discipline! I tend to do the whole beat myself up thing quite a lot... maybe I should try to look at it your way... kudos for achieving that! (*hug*)

    lots of very interesting input, guys !! :slight_smile:
     
    #11 Invidia, Aug 13, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2015
  12. Aldrick

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    Yes, lots of people do it. I used to do it all the time. I always told myself that I was trying to be disciplined, that I needed to hold myself accountable, and I had all of these seemingly positive associations with the concept of discipline. All of this was a horrible mix because I have strong perfectionist tendencies, and this obviously set myself up to fail on a regular basis. Which in turn meant that I would fail at something, and then rip myself apart afterward. I was worse on myself than anyone else could have ever hoped to be.

    Yet, did it lead to me improving? No. Never. It did not help me at all. In fact, it had the opposite effect. It was a demotivating force. I wouldn't live up to my (often impossible) expectations, and then rip myself a part afterward. This left me feeling like shit. It hurt myself confidence, how I perceived myself in relation to others, my sense of self-worth, and more. It also meant that I was risk adverse, because I knew what would happen if I failed at something.

    I knew this was an obstacle in my way, so I decided that I needed to be more self-compassionate. I knew how I was treating myself was not okay, and the things that I'd say to myself I'd never say to someone else in the same position. I tried to be self-compassionate, but I struggled badly and kept failing. I came to realize that my virtue of self-discipline was standing in the way. That's when I decided to re-evaluate my concept of discipline, and actually turned to the dictionary. When I actually read the definition, it sort of just clicked into place in my head. Obviously, this is what was wrong, and this is what I was doing to myself. I was punishing myself for failure, and punishment is incompatible with self-compassion.

    I struggled to reconcile things at first. I didn't want to give up my love of discipline. I couldn't imagine my life working without it. It was just inconceivable. What was I going to do? Be nice to myself all the time, and have no standards at all? That was ridiculous.

    After thinking about it for awhile, working over the conflict in my head, I stumbled upon the answer. That was devotion. I am devoted to my success, to improving my life, and showing myself the love and compassion necessary to overcome the obstacles in my way. Self-Devotion changed everything. I found a way to merge the concepts of Self-Discipline and Self-Compassion into a unified whole.

    I changed the way that I talked to myself. When I caught myself beating myself up, I asked myself the question: "Is this how I would speak to someone I loved, is this how I would speak to my best friend?" I forced myself to talk to myself the way that I would talk to someone else. I started to refuse to beat myself up, and when I struggled and fell short of my expectations, I spoke to myself in the way that I would speak to a close and intimate friend. I started to treat myself in the way that I treat others.

    This meant that I started to re-develop my sense of self-worth and I even started to develop some confidence. It meant that I started to feel more comfortable taking risks, and this put me on the path of making decisions that would put my life on a positive track. Suddenly, I started to feel more and more confident as I took on more and more in my life, and started pushing beyond boundaries that I would have never crossed in the past due to fear of failure.

    Now, of course, I am not going to say that things are perfect. Sometimes, old habits rear their ugly head. However, I am fairly well practiced now that I catch myself when it happens, and then I ask myself that important question: "Is this how I would talk to someone that I love, is this how I would speak to my best friend?" And of course, the answer to that question is always, "No." Once that question is answered, I am able to divert my energy toward a more positive internal dialog.
     
  13. Im Hazel

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    I am super-intrigued, now. ^^ I think I could handle anything. Please?
     
  14. wannahavechange

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    Modesty

    Unconditional love

    Patience XD
     
  15. Blackbirdz

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    I'll answer the second question first. The virtue that I most admire is courage. However, the virtue that I hold, practically, as the highest virtue is wisdom. Wisdom without courage is still wisdom. Courage without wisdom is foolishness. Therefore, wisdom is the higher virtue.