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Let's talk about the hijab, shall we?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by queermeerkat, Aug 5, 2015.

  1. queermeerkat

    queermeerkat Guest

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    Disclaimer: I think if you wanna wear a hijab, you do you, so don't get me wrong there.

    So this woman made a vid about hijabs, saying basically that wearing a hijab is about modesty, retaining control over one's sexuality in a hyper-sexual world that objectifies women, that the rejection of being seen only by your sexual allure by covering up is empowering. What are everyone's thoughts on this?

    My thoughts are that her argument is BS, bc changing the way you dress to avoid being sexualized is not empowering but giving in to the patriarchy and hyper-sexualization of women; not rejecting it-working around it. Rejecting the constant objectification of women imo is a statement you make and live ReGARdless of clothing choices, if you wanna dress sexy, hell gurl work it til you hit overtime, if you-as a personal choice-want to be more modest than most than good on you for being your own person too!
    But it's like missing the whole point of feminism (also noting that she called the hijab a feminist statement), feminism is about equal opportunity and every woman (and man) being able to do wtf they wanna, dress how they wanna, talk how they wanna, fuck who they wanna. You can be empowered and in control of your sexuality while showing off your legs, hair or shoulders, but this video seems to make the claim that if you don't be modest you are somehow accepting/supporting how the media over-sexualizes women.

    I may have some errors in my thoughts, that's why I post here, to hear other opinions to better learn and understand. I was trying to get my thoughts all out at once so forgive me if I come across angry or anything, let us be civil, I'd love to hear EC's thoughts.
    But srsly at the very least the video is a badly made argument with logical fallacies.
    link below:
    'My Hijab Has Nothing To Do With Oppression. It's A Feminist Statement'
     
  2. DreamerBoy17

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    I agree that it contributes to oppression. By covering your face, it seems like you're saying that you're the problem, not the pigs that treat you like a sex toy.
     
  3. Randomcloud

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    I agree with you. It's a personal choice and if someone feels more comfortable wearing it, they should feel free to wear it! It does have cultural meaning to some people. Feminism should indeed be about women being able to dress how they want to and do what makes them comfortable. I hear the argument that wearing a hijab is "internalized misogyny" and it makes me a bit sick...you can't just tell someone they're oppressed if that is not how they feel. On the contrary nobody should be made to feel like they /have/ to wear a hijab.
     
  4. DreamerBoy17

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    I'd just like to add, forgot to put this in my post, I personally don't think that it is a pro-feminist thing to wear, but feminism is about having the options available to you to chose your clothing and life choices, so I do believe that it is up to the woman to decide what she wants.
     
  5. acciocarrie

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    The hijab does not cover your face. That's the burqa (or niqab) you're thinking about.

    I agree.
     
    #5 acciocarrie, Aug 5, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2015
  6. biAnnika

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    Good catch/correction.

    But replace "face" with "body" in Em's statement, and I think she still hits the nail squarely on the head.
     
  7. BryanM

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    I feel like this comic is pretty good at explaining how feminism is about choice, but how choices aren't inherently feminist. This uses makeup as an example, but I also think it is applicable to the hijab: Why Saying 'It's My Choice' Doesn't Necessarily Make Your Choice Feminist

    I have no clue what the content creator has been through and I'm not going to try to lecture them on how to be a good feminist, because I'm definitely not a perfect feminist. It's her choice to wear a hijab or not, and she can be a feminist if she wears one or not.
     
  8. Wallace N

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    Look, it doesn't matter what I think about Islam and Muslim views on sexuality and women. I also don't care much about the views of liberal Muslim apologists who try to justify women covering themselves as some kind of rebellion against "Western sexual liberty". Anyone who knows Muslim history knows that this is not what the hijab and niqab were originally created for and not what it signifies in the majority of conservative Muslim nations where women are always at fault in any kind of sexual transgression.

    If someone wants to wear a hjiab, then it is their prerogative and no one has a right to tell them they're "oppressed" for wearing one. At the same time, it's completely within someone's choice to not wear one.
     
    #8 Wallace N, Aug 6, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2015
  9. Gen

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    I feel that it is important for everyone to watch the full video before commenting.

    [YOUTUBE]t1x5Zu18f7U[/YOUTUBE]

    Many people are misinterpreting her argument based on the beginning of the video. Her argument is not that the hijab is a sign of feminism because it allows women to diverge from popularized beauty standards that encourage sexualization and objectification. Her argument is that the independent choice of a women to wear a hijab is feministic in nature.

    The video hits the nail on the head on the subject of what is commonly seen as women's liberation. This idea that choosing walking outside topless is a sign of feminism and liberation, but choosing to wear a hijab, an accessory that garners no less backlash from the general public, is the sign of a deluded woman. The belief that confidence, liberation, and empowerment must always be at odds with presenting oneself conservatively is oppressive in itself. Especially since there is not nearly as much criticism to followers of Catholicism who present themselves in traditional, conservative attire; or any other western religion in general.

    Women have the right to be conservative. We are at a point in our culture that a women choosing to dress conservatively is absolutely a more loud feminist statement that a women choosing to dress in ways that compliment popular narratives because they are not simply making a statement in the face of oppressive patriarchy, but also in the face of oppressive women who convince themselves that feminism can only be expressed under terms that represent their ideals of what a woman should be.
     
  10. Wallace N

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    ^I think that is key, then, that the choice is what makes it a feminist statement. There cannot be one way to dress that is considered "feminist", while all others are rejected. It's having the choice that makes it truly feminist, if this is what feminism was originally about.

    The negative reaction comes from the cultural association. People don't have an association of Catholics with oppressive societies where women can't drive or must wear a niqab. This is the popular image of Muslims (and is partially based on truth), so this is the popular image of the hijab. And places like France are so xenophobic that they don't even attempt to understand the other culture and pass sweeping "No Muslim Garb Allowed" laws.

    Although I'm not sure if dressing conservatively is a bigger statement. It may seem that way sometimes, but even in an area as liberal as where I live, women who wear less "modest" clothes are still frequently described as "sluts" and are blamed for incurring their own rape or assault.
     
  11. Invidia

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    Very nice analysis of feminism within capitalism by this woman

    On the subject, she has found a way that she feels is a feminist statement and that can be a structural weapon against the patriarchy. Good for her, and I think she makes a good point.
     
  12. Gen

    Gen
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    It is less about how much skin is being shown and more about the styles of dress that people tend to associate with conservative ideals. Wearing clothes that are considered too far on either side of the spectrum will absolutely generate scrutiny, but if we are going to make the claim one is more combative to social norms than the other in the modern era than it wouldn't be revealing clothing in most areas of the world.
     
  13. RainDreamer

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    I don't think we have exactly reached a feminist ideal state of mind yet when talk about women's clothing generate heated discussion of women's right to their body. It should be just...let people wear whatever the hell they want without judgement. Like, it should be talking about guys' clothes.
     
  14. queermeerkat

    queermeerkat Guest

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    Um what about the South in the US where conservative is the norm, or places where hijabs and burqa are enforced or customary, in a good portion of the world conservative dressing for women is the norm, and often enforced.

    I don't think anyone here is saying women shouldn't dress how they want to, it's more about what the hijab represents and the mindset behind much of it's use. To dress conservative for yourself is perfectly fine, but to dress conservatively for the purpose of rejecting objectification of women is making that choice not for yourself but bc of the patriarchy and how others view you.
     
  15. kyoujin

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    They can wear whatever they want.

    In my opinion, revealing too much of the body is erotic. I'm not saying it is a bad thing, but I think those who do should not complain of the sexual attention they receive.
    Of course, when it comes to issues such as rape, that's a different story.

    That said, those who choose to wear the hijab are also not in the wrong.
    It should be a free world, where people can choose to dress as they wish.
     
  16. I don't live in a city where veiled Muslims are common, but hearing people say that the hijab is a "symbol of oppression" is just painful. When did choosing to cover a part of one's body become a form of oppression? There are many different interpretations of a patriarchal society. Respect one's interpretation that a male-dominated society is body objectification. Nowadays, dressing in a more conservative style has become a feminist statement as opposed to in the past when showing more skin was a feminist statement in the 50's and 60's. I'll leave this picture here for you guys to think a bit.

    [​IMG]

    Women can wear whatever they want. Besides elderly women (at least the ones I've seen) often wear headscarves on their heads when they go out. Heck, even the Queen of England wears a headscarf once in a while. Covering their hair isn't just a thing in Islam, it was a fashion choice women of the past did. Not only that, they wore it for the same reasons as hijabis do, modesty and conservatism.

    [​IMG]

    But I do not deny that there are women out there that are forced to wear it like in Iran. Iranian women are forced to wear the hijab. The recommended fashion "choice" is a chador and a strict, austere wearing of the thick hijab. However, when you force some people to do things they don't want to do, they do it in a half-assed way, that goes for the Iranian women and the hijab. Many women in Iran, especially in Tehran, push the limits of the strict dress code by wearing Western clothing. With the hijab, they wear thin, somewhat transparent scarves with very colorful designs instead of the thick and dark hijab the government recommends. They also loosely wear it on the far backs of their heads, showing most of their hair, as shown here.

    [​IMG]

    Also, this picture is a lesson that you should NEVER OFFEND A NIQABI. Hope this interview was real btw....

    [​IMG]
     
    #16 anthonythegamer, Aug 6, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 6, 2015
  17. Ashley2103

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    I think hijabs make some women look sexy. Hell, even that niqab above makes the woman look sexy. Besides both have their own advantage. I saw this video where this woman walked through public like normal and a lot of guys were flirting with her, even when she said she had a boyfriend, but when she wore a hijab, they ignored her.
     
  18. Gen

    Gen
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    The South is native to conservative ideology, which is entirely different than having a social norm of conservative dress. The dress of the average southerner is no more conservative than the dress of the average northerner in the U.S. America does not have a social norm of conservative dress. Is there still stigma surrounding revealing clothing? Absolutely. As there is a degree of stigma in most areas of the world? However, does women in revealing clothing generate as much social scrutiny as women in Muslim, Mormon, etc, attire? Absolutely not.

    Yet nowhere in the video did she outline the male gaze as the only reason she wears hijabs. She tried to explain the desire to wear one to a general audience who wouldn't necessarily understand the cultural or religious relevance of it; and everyone decided to discount all of the statements that followed and make fighting objectification her main argument when it clearly wasn't.

    Additionally, this notion that a woman choosing to dress conservatively even for strictly social reasons is anti-feminist is ridiculous. All people dress with consideration for the society that they are preparing to enter. If a woman wants to veil any part of her body from the eyes of the general public, then she is valid in doing so regardless of whether it fits into your personal ideal of what a liberated woman is. Her asserting that right is feministic.

    Head wraps have over a millenia worth of culture in African, Middle Eastern, and Asian cultures. The styles, patterns, and fabrics that were used to create them gave birth to so much of global fashion today. They are symbols are much more than the oppression than western feminist tend to reduce themselves to.

    Women in the west can reclaim their clothing, sexuality, and culture. They can redefine the meaning behind makeup and wear their dresses and skirts a few inches shorter and ignore the fact that they lived through thousands of years of being forced to wear them by men. But women of foreign cultures apparently need to recognize that their culture and dress has been corrupted beyond repair and give it up. It is pure bias. Nothing more.