What's happening to France and Europe?

Fascism is on the move across Europe... it flows and ebbs here throughout history. Now it's coming again... and having at least middle-row seats to this is not something I personally appreciate.

 

Another reason why Europe sucks.

 

Well, if Europe sucks, then so does the rest of the world. (And if that's what you were saying, I'm not going to argue with that.)

Being French and living in France, let me see if I can weigh in. What happened in 2013? Well, marriage equality happened and pushed LGBT issues (and hence homophobia) into the spotlight. Since then, there has been an increase in reported homophobic acts: more people were openly homophobic, and more victims spoke out. (I still think I'd rather be gay in France than in the US.)

I'm going to read what you linked to, and maybe come back with more to say. Thank you for the link, it seems interesting.

 

We had a French foreign exchange student when I was in high school(2002). He's one of the most homophobic people I know. I think part of it was when he came here, people suspected he was gay because he was from France(not even Paris, I think he was from Lyon). Anyways, he said several times, "I'm not into that gay shit." He was the star basketball player.

 

I wonder if passion, in either direction, is lessening as queer rights increase.

 

It is disappointing to see support for LGBT rights get worse over time, since in most places, it has either remained the same or gotten better.

Europeans I suppose are becoming disillusioned with the gay rights movement--conservatism and nationalism spawned by increased problems with immigrants (especially Middle Eastern immigrants) may cause a general disfavor toward any non-straight, non-white, non-[insert country] person.

 

Like BeckiWoopx said - facism.
With this economical crisis alot of facist parties and 'mentalities' are coming back. It's not only anti-lgbt thing, its also anti-immigrants and all that fun stuff that facism brings.

 

What is considered conservative over there is moderate over here though, so it's all relative.

 

These acceptance polls are notoriously variable - different companies deliver entirely different results. Some BBC poll said 60-something percent of Brits approve of same-sex marriage, while another says 70-something percent approve.

Basically, take such polls and any such movement between one or the other, with a pinch of salt.

Also, you might want to scroll down further on the PDF you linked to - it shows a 5% change in homosexuality acceptance in the UK, from 71% to 76%. The US has seen a substantial change, but also from a much lower point to begin with. The 76% figure for the UK is lower than some of the other Pew Research polls I've seen that said around 77%, so the results are clearly volatile.

What I find more interesting is that apparently 30-49 year olds are more accepting of homosexuality than 18-29 year olds in the UK.

The decrease in France might be a reaction to same-sex marriage being legalised, amongst certain people. I wouldn't take it as a precursor for anything.

Didn't someone also start a thread saying support for homosexuality had actually fallen in the US in the wake of nationwide same-sex marriage?

 

France is a bit of an odd one.

It actually has a very secular legal system and culture, and yet homophobia is unfortunately quite rife.

I think perhaps without the same scale of religion acting as a societal crutch, the populous instead turns to other traditions such as traditional viewpoints to attempt to "keep things steady"?

---------- Post added 20th Aug 2015 at 11:44 AM ----------

Oh definitely, you can't compare France to say, rural Texas.

It probably has higher levels of homophobia than many Western-European countries, but it is still massively more progressive than Eastern Europe and Southern/Mid US States. .

 

So I actually find this topic very interesting, and I think I came up with a few more things to say.


• To add to what 741852963 said, France is very secular, and proud of it. Religion is something private (not taboo, but not something you flaunt). However, the culture still has its roots in Christianity, and its secularism actually benefits/favors Christianity more than, say, Islam. Frankly, the only people that I regularly see whose religion I am aware of are Muslims (things like not eating pork are hard to miss). Think of things like the law banning head coverings – part of the reason it had support was, unfortunately, islamophobia.

It's actually a similar argument to "Straight people don't have straight pride, why do you need gay pride if you're 'normal'?" In this case, the 'normal' people are the atheists, agnostics, and moderate Christians.

Many French people feel the same way about homosexuality as they do about religion: do your thing, so long as you're not too "in your face" about it.

• To elaborate on 2013, which is when marriage equality passed in France. That meant adoption by same-sex couples became legal. It was a battle. It felt like the debate went on for ages. I was living with my parents and it seemed like there was something or other on television about it every day. That, as you can imagine, sparked a few arguments with my parents.

My parents are the type that will say, "Oh, I'm not homophobic. My sister is gay, and we get along great, you know? Mind you, I do think it's a bit weird. And I wouldn't want my son to be like that, of course. But if they're happy that way, okay. What they do in bed is none of my concern. But marriage should be between a man and a woman. And look, the children will be bullied in school, and that's not right. And if I were in Paris right now, I'd go to that protest. But I'm not homophobic."

And the thing is, before 2013, I didn't necessarily know how they felt about the issue. Because it never came up. I knew my parents were fine with my gay aunt. And then marriage equality came into the picture, and suddenly they were very not okay with gay people and our conflicting views became regular dinnertime conversation. And that was just within one family. Put that on a country-wide scale, and yes, it creates tensions. It creates ugly situations with slurs thrown about like they're nothing and horrifying violence against innocent people.


• SOS Homophobie, France's "watchdog group" that annually publishes a report on homophobia in the country, did note a significant rise of homophobic acts in 2012 and 2013 (I believe it was by 78% compared to the previous year, but don't quote me on that), which they linked to the marriage equality debate. The numbers went down in 2014, but were still higher than in 2011 and in previous years. Their conclusion was that, yes, there had been more homophobic acts (not homophobia itself, as they don't/can't measure that), but victims had also become more outspoken about them.


• Political context. France has been increasingly dissatisfied with its left-wing president since the beginning of his mandate. His popularity has repeatedly hit record lows since he was elected, and a lot of French people thought that focusing on gay rights instead of the economy was stupid. Whenever the president addressed homophobia in a speech, people would roll their eyes and say he was avoiding talking about the disastrous rates of unemployment or economic growth. (Personally, I don't think the crisis should mean that basic equality doesn't matter anymore.)

The French in general are unhappy, as in many places, because of the crisis (and because the French like to complain). And unhappy people are more prone to lash out and look for other people to blame or to release their anger on.


• What Wallace N said. Sadly true.


• The numbers are not that scary. Yes, there's a decrease, but the numbers seem pretty stable. Acceptance in the US may be on the rise, but it's still lower than in countries like Spain, Germany, the UK, or France. We still have progress to make, and this is a setback, but I'm hopeful.

 

Don't make me get involved in the Fascism talk.​

 

I was going to say. It seems like the French have always been upset with their government since the French Revolution. lol. French Canadians usually aren't a happy lot with their government either.

However, it is an unfair stereotype to say that all French people are unhappy. They just want you to try to speak their language when you are over there. Like my mom says, "If you try, you will be fine." She speaks fluent French and has visited over there on 5 separate occasions. She went to the World Cup in Nantes(sorry don't know where accent markers are on my keyboard) in 98 and also has a friend that moved from central France down to west of Nice.

I have a French video for a French song that my mom(yes, she was my teacher) taught me in class, but it would be against EC rule's even though it has an English translation. I can understand enough French to get by as a visitor.

 

Hey, if you want to defend my native country, biguy8, I'm not complaining. I did mean that they were unhappy at the moment, because of the crisis, not that we were all unbearable people. Glad your mother had a nice experience visiting us. I loved Michigan when I was there, as a completely off-topic aside.
Now I'm curious about that song. Ah well.

 

I don't know but I've been there and I loved it.

 

There are no simple answers. A number of socio-economic factors need to be considered and there are wider geo-political issues affecting the whole European continent. The need for a strong and united EU has never been more apparent.

 

When large social change has been pushed, such as legalizing same-sex marriage, then there will be backlash. I fear the same may happen in the US (support decreasing by a bit). France I'd say is actually more socially conservative in general, more than people would think. I would guess it's more of a cultural aspect.

The "healthiest" way to create social change with minimal backlash would be a popular vote, like in Ireland. As long as the majority says it's okay, the minority will be more likely to accept it because they had plenty of time to debate the issue themselves. I know it's not always the most efficient way of doing things, especially since we are dealing with civil rights issues, but more people wouldn't feel as threatened and feel the need to rebel as much.

I would also like to say that polls can vary, especially depending on who's running the polls.

 

France's homophobia and xenophobia really are problems, but

Didier Eribon's Retour à Reims (Returning to Reims) is a really fascinating personal account of the disaffection many French (traditionally urban working class) who are homophobic feel, also with an exploration of xenophobia, racism and sexism. It's disappointing to find that so many French consider homosexuality to be a pastime of the Parisian elite, rather than being natural and universal.