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So why do radical feminists hate trans girls again?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by edy, Aug 29, 2015.

  1. edy

    edy
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    I don't get it, I thought they only hated cisgender males because they were kind of jealous of them. They don't hate transgender guys though, they only believe they are "lesbians in denial" (although not respecting their gender identity is a form of hate, I suppose)

    why would they feel threatened by transgender people in general? Because of them I cannot take feminism very seriously, I'm sorry :tears:
     
  2. kageshiro

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    Because they're abysmally stupid.
     
  3. Kaiser

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    Entitled/perverted males who are invading their space, ala rapist mentality.

    Extreme, but much trickles down from that.
     
  4. edy

    edy
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    ugh I hate them so much
     
  5. Pret Allez

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    We don't! And some of us are trans girls....
     
  6. Florestan

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    From what I can tell, there's a divide in feminism between those who see men and women as equals, and those who see them as enemies. For the more extreme ones, you have no say in your own identity. It's determined by birth and social conditioning. Since you have lived most of your life with male privilege, you can't understand what it truly means to be a woman.

    Other feminists would argue that you shouldn't promote rights for one group of people (women) while suppressing those of another (transgender people). Feminism rests on the idea that everyone should be free to live their lives as they see fit, without being held back by gender norms.

    In the end, the fact that there are terrible people who are feminists shouldn't keep you from taking it seriously. Every ideology - whether it's feminism, capitalism, atheism, Christianity, or anything else - will have bigots and extremists.
     
  7. gravechild

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    Radical feminists argue that gender is entirely a social construct, and that trans women help to enforce negative stereotypes related to womanhood. At the same time, some radical feminists will argue that anyone born with this or that chromosome or set of genitals is "really a man" or "really a woman".

    And yeah, you have a few who argue that some trans women use "male privilege" to "invade women's spaces" and "force" lesbians to date them. On the flip side, you have others who feel threatened and insecure that they're competing for straight men!

    Luckily, they're a minority, albeit a loud one, and hopefully dying breed...
     
  8. Pret Allez

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    Sister, I differ somewhat with your assessment. Believing that gender is a social construct or at least socially contingent is not inherently invalidating or threatening to trans women. Or at least, I don't experience it that way. Instead, I find the idea liberating, because it specifically attacks gender essentialism, which as you know is the main impetus (apart from homophobia) for the violence people direct at us.

    What lesbian separatists (not other radical feminists) do is make a positive claim that trans women aren't real women, and that they perpetuate negative stereotypes about womanhood. The problem with their philosophy is to be found in trans denialism and the violence that attends to that, not the belief that gender is socially constructed or contingent.

    In sisterhood and solidarity,

    Adrienne
     
    #8 Pret Allez, Aug 29, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2015
  9. Steam Mecha

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    Any group that uses the term "Radical" should be ignored, Just saying.
     
  10. Pret Allez

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    Again, not really. All that "radical" means in the context of radical feminism is to differentiate a class of feminisms from another class: liberal feminism. Liberal feminism is a class of any feminist philosophies that advocate changing the law, using the legal process and court systems to effect gender egalitarian changes. Radical feminism is a class of any feminist philosophies that believe changing the law and legal processes is either impossible, misguided, or insufficient to effect gender egalitarian changes.

    The fallacy here is taking "radical feminism" to mean "extreme feminism" (whatever that even means). That makes about as much sense as saying a semi-automatic is a low-speed machine gun.
     
  11. BryanM

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    See I don't even consider TERFs real feminists, because Feminism as an ideology says that all people are equal, and TERFs essentially think that trans people have no humanity. Pro-tip: Take what TERFs say with a grain of salt.
     
  12. gravechild

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    Apparently, "TERF" is now a slur to some people, along with "cis".
     
  13. Pret Allez

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    So, I realize I'm going to sound super obnoxious by disagreeing with pretty much everyone here. For what it's worth, I really don't think it's actually splitting hairs.

    BryanM, I'm very grateful that you don't consider those folks real feminists. And I think you're absolutely right. They label themselves as feminist, and then they behave in ways that actively support gender oppression. I just don't want to No True Scotsman them out, since other than their completely inhumane views on transgender people, they make a lot of claims most feminists would agree with. They are just odious. So I have no disagreement with your assessment whatsoever: they are astoundingly problematic.

    At the same time, I really wish we'd do away with this term "trans-exclusive radical feminist," because it's inaccurate and stigmatizing of radical feminists.

    First of all, the reason this entire conversation arises is that "TERF" means "RF" to people. As I've tried to detail, being "trans-exclusive" isn't consistent with feminism, and it's certainly not "radical," because a basic prerequisite to being radical is being intersectional. People don't hear "trans-exclusive radical feminist" in full. They just hear "radical feminist" and the notion that they are "trans-exclusive" is redundant and merely adds to the injurious, pejorative nature of the term.

    Second, as a term, TERF doesn't accurately describe the cruelty these people are engaged in. They don't merely exclude transgender people. The don't just "I won't date them or be friends with them and invite them to parties." They deny us access to resources like crisis centers, shelters, support groups, and institutions of higher learning. In some cases, this can have not just life-course changing, but lethal consequences for us. They add to the voices of exclusive violence that want to prevent the expansion of non-discrimination law, raising the fraudulent spectre of bathroom sexual assault. They are trans denialist or trans hating, but not trans exclusive.
     
    #13 Pret Allez, Aug 29, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2015
  14. edy

    edy
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    f**** those pigs, then
     
  15. MetalRice

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    TERF's are not real feminists, real feminists are those that advocate for equality of all under the law and advocate that everyone should be able their life freely, securely and however they want; TERF's are just jackasses and idiots.
     
  16. Pret Allez

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    I know sweetie :frowning2: No matter the source, the cruelty really hurts. The struggle is to know how we're going to address the exclusion, alienation, and violence.

    We've got to build and keep our safe spaces, here. (*hug*)
     
  17. edy

    edy
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    They also claim that trans guys attracted to other guys (gay trans) just want to experience the "gay male privilege" WTF????
     
  18. Pret Allez

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    Ah yes, that would be the gay male privilege that one of my high school friends enjoyed when he was almost beaten to death in the bathroom.
     
  19. Kaiser

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    It's funny you say that, because there have been instances where transmen have been accused of wanting to live out a fantasy, and that it isn't really them being transgender but a desire for a sexual and/or self fulfillment.

    Is any of this true? I haven't really looked into it enough to form my own opinion, but there have been cases of transwomen wanting to transition for the same reason, though these make up a very small but extreme percentage. And almost all of them frequent the bowels of Tumblr...
     
  20. Simple Thoughts

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    Feminism is an impossible mess to understand with a million different sub-sections and they're all saying different things in different tones with different intents. It's impossible to even know where to begin to figure feminism out and you're honestly better off just following your own moral compass and forgetting about what label to slap onto yourself.

    If you believe in equality for both genders than great go pursue that don't worry about which sub-genre of feminism you're wanting to watch while you go about it. Just go do it and your actions will lead you to people who feel the way you do =3