1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Can Christians NOT believe that being gay is a sin?

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by SubZero, Dec 9, 2015.

  1. SubZero

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2015
    Messages:
    249
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    New York
    Gender:
    Male
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Or is that un-Christian like?

    I know that *most* Christians are good people and I respect their beliefs. The ONLY ones that bother me are the ones that constantly judge others and who use the bible as their weapon. Like if somebody says they support gay marriage or that they DON'T think being gay is wrong, the judgemental Christians will say "Then you are not a real Christian. You will burn in hell." (Basically just pointing the fingers at others).

    My question is can a Christian believe that being gay is not a sin and what evidence do they have for thinking that way? If conservatives claim that being gay is a sin and that it's clearly in the bible, then why is it always a debatable topic?
     
    #1 SubZero, Dec 9, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
  2. Skaros

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    1,254
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Chicago, IL
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    All but family
    I kind of do always ponder this question-- for any religion really. If God's message is so vitally important, then why wasn't it delivered in a way for everyone to understand? It seems for Christianity, there's a lot of room for debate on many issues. Hell, there's still debate on whether or not the Old Testament needs to be followed.
     
    #2 Skaros, Dec 9, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
  3. Open Arms

    Open Arms Guest

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2015
    Messages:
    493
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Canada
    Gender:
    Female
    Yes Sub-Zero, a Christian can believe that being gay is not a sin. In fact, few Christians will actually say being gay is a sin. Many will say gay sex is a sin. Others will say, Well, it's not God's ideal, but He still loves gays. Many Christians say gays are a wonderful part of God's creation and monogamous gay sex in a loving relationship is good and right as is heterosexual sex in a loving, monogamous relationship.

    Over the past decade or so, many Christians have come out in favour of gay rights, gay marriage and gay adoption. Indeed, many high profile conservative Christians have even come out in favour of these rights. This has literally rocked the evangelical world to its core and is probably going to be the hot button issue in the Christian church in the West over the next 20 years.

    It's debateable because of tradition and the fact that, for whatever reason, when the Hebrew and Greek original texts were translated into English, the word "homosexuality" was used to cover various types of sinful sexual behaviours like molesting young men. It really is NOT that cut and dried.

    I find it's a very exciting time for the Church as the grievous sins committed against LBGT folks are beginning to be recognized and acknowledged. Some may say too little too late, but I guess better late than never!

    Thank you for your question and openness to learn Sub-Zero.
     
  4. BobObob

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Messages:
    577
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    California
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    I'm not a Christian, but I use to be one. However...

    It's possible to be a Christian and not believe that being gay is a sin. Like with many other issues, the Bible can be interpreted in different ways when it comes to being gay, especially since the modern concept of sexual orientation did not exist back then. In general, it's usually possible to use the Bible to affirm whatever pre-existing biases and beliefs that one has, and homosexuality is no different.
     
  5. Distant Echo

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2015
    Messages:
    462
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    on the verge of somewhere
    Is it harsh to say the bible was written and edited and changed to suit whoever was in charge at the time?
    It's a political document with little basis in fact or reality.

    From an atheist.
     
  6. Chip

    Board Member Admin Team Advisor Full Member

    Joined:
    May 9, 2008
    Messages:
    16,551
    Likes Received:
    4,750
    Location:
    northern CA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Check out some of the lectures and interviews with Matthew Vines. He has almost singlehandedly changes a lot of money ds among influential leaders in the various Christian faiths, showing that the Bible actually does t condemn homosexuality at all.
     
  7. Open Arms

    Open Arms Guest

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2015
    Messages:
    493
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Canada
    Gender:
    Female
    I've asked that same question Skaros. Why has God left room for doubt and not explained everything in black and white? We would need a whole semester of classes to delve into that question, I think.

    The way I see it, the most vital things we need to know are clearly presented:
    God created us, loves us and wants to save our sin sick souls and world through our connection with Him, our Source. The keys to fulfilment are faith and love.

    We don't have black and white answers to other things because ... ours is a religion of mystery, faith, paradoxes, relationships, a God beyond all human comprehension. You can not put things in a neat box, in a nutshell. If we do, we become judgemental and legalistic. As we try to figure things out, and disagree with others, we must try to follow the example of Jesus Christ... be humble, accepting, self-sacrificing, forgiving, loving. What could be more challenging?

    Sometimes I think God is testing whether we actually have faith and love. If He gave us all the answers we wouldn't need faith. If we all agreed on everything, would that stretch our capacity to love?

    This makes sense to me but may be as plain as mud to others.
     
  8. Secrets5

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Messages:
    1,964
    Likes Received:
    77
    Location:
    UK
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    A few people
    Yes, if we take Levictus 20:13 "man should not lie with another man as he does a woman or both would have commit an abomination" Marxists (aka myself) would say that "lie" means in terms of hierarchies and that God/Jesus are saying that everyone should be equal, no one above or below others. "lie" can also refer to not telling the truth, and God/Jesus are saying everyone should all know the truth.

    The only reason that in 1302, the Pope banned homosexuality, is that they did not want to relinquish their power. It is the Pope who have committed an ''abomination'' as they lied to mankind (female homosexuality was never banned, reference BBC iPlayer - Tyger Takes On... - Series 2: 1. How Straight Am I?) for long enough.
     
  9. Open Arms

    Open Arms Guest

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2015
    Messages:
    493
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Canada
    Gender:
    Female
    Well, I would say it is actually inaccurate to call the Bible a political document. It has a lot of history, poetry, wisdom literature, prophecy, parables and personal letters in it. How you get a political document out of that, I don't know.

    It does tell us to be good stewards of the earth, pray for our government, look after widows, orphans and the poor and oppressed, pay our taxes, not cheat people, have able-bodied people work for a living/support themselves and resist evil forces. So in that sense, it does give us a political platform I guess.
     
  10. Tightrope

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2013
    Messages:
    5,415
    Likes Received:
    387
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Some people
    Yes, some Christians can think for themselves and decide that it is not a sin. They can look for assistance in finding that information or they can just use common sense. I've even talked to people in the clergy who don't think it's a big deal while the specific religions they belong to do think it is.
     
  11. AtheistWorld

    AtheistWorld Guest

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,409
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Out Status:
    Some people
    They can, but it's not consistent with their beliefs, and I liken it to a scientist who espouses creationism.

    But christians like to cherry pick what is and isn't sinful. Obesity, according to the bible, would be a sin, but since it's not practical to hate on them (too big of an enemy) they don't lash out against them.
     
    #11 AtheistWorld, Dec 9, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2015
  12. Aussie792

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2013
    Messages:
    3,317
    Likes Received:
    62
    Location:
    Australia
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Yes, they can. It's not a literal interpretation, but it's hardly overly blasphemous. As with most religious texts, there's an extent to which the faithful must prioritise and even exclude entire segments of texts.

    Fundamentalists often like to ignore tone; charity, love and humility are all demanded throughout Christian texts, both through explicit commands and moralistic stories. To value the lessons emphasised above all by Christ allows for leeway when it comes to the harsher Biblical passages. I don't think it's reasonable to completely deny that the writers of the Biblical passages most commonly cited (Leviticus 20:13 probably being the most common) were extremely homophobic, or at the very least that later interpretations have rendered those passages irreversibly so, but a Christian can choose to find that less compelling than the calls for love in the New Testament.

    Still, Christ did not totally reject the Old Testament and it is impossible to ignore that. But I don't think any Christian can be a true literalist; there exist too many contradictions and too many post-Biblical cultural influences to follow the Bible's every command.
     
  13. guitar

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2015
    Messages:
    2,062
    Likes Received:
    2
    Location:
    Southern Ontario, Canada
    If you're interested in this topic I highly recommend Dear God by John Goode. It's free on Google Play books and only about 15 pages. It's written as a conversation piece between a gay teen anda pastor. Very readable and informative.
     
  14. ParrotBrat

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2015
    Messages:
    25
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    USA
    Gender:
    Female
    Out Status:
    Some people
    My Christian roommate had some interesting views. She said she didn't know what to believe because the bible and her parents say it's sin, but on the other hand her favorite uncle is gay and married. She says that causes her "bias" in favor of gay people. A nice girl but weird ideas.

    I've heard others say it's up for interpretation. Once at a bible camp a pastor told us kiddies that when it comes to gay people, it's okay to care about the person even if you disapprove of their lifestyle. He basically said it's not our business even if it's a sin and we should treat everyone with respect. I say we because at the time I was included in the group. I am not a Christian and church camp was the worst.
     
  15. BobObob

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Messages:
    577
    Likes Received:
    9
    Location:
    California
    Gender:
    Male
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    Out to everyone
    Most of the books of the Old Testament, especially those of the Pentateuch, don't exactly have a tone charity, love, and humility. Death to sinners, especially those outsiders who worship other gods, are demanded throughout those texts. Although you can dig to find part in the Old testament that demand charity and love (albeit, only to fellow Jews), those books contain a very different tone than the New testament.

    That being said, there was no concept of sexual orientation as we understand it today, so what the Old Testament says about homosexuality may be understood as not condemning homosexuality as we understand it today.

    ---------- Post added 10th Dec 2015 at 01:16 AM ----------

    To the OP:

    In addition to the lectures by Matthew Vines mentioned earlier, John Corvino (who has produced many good videos on LGB issues in general) made a couple videos that I would recommend watching if you have ~12 minutes of time to spare:

    [YOUTUBE]EN7E8UCsJ_M[/YOUTUBE]

    [YOUTUBE]RDN-ZbpVSP8[/YOUTUBE]
     
    #15 BobObob, Dec 10, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
  16. Invidia

    Invidia Guest

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2015
    Messages:
    2,802
    Likes Received:
    3
    Location:
    Far above the clouds, gazing deep below the Earth
    Gender:
    Female (trans*)
    Of course they can. They're human beings, and even though their values and beliefs are arguably primarily conditioned rather than chosen, they can choose not to condemn homosexuality. Also, Christianity doesn't by default elicit homophobia - it's just very common for it to do so.
     
    #16 Invidia, Dec 10, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
  17. Hexagon

    Full Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2011
    Messages:
    8,558
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Earth
    Yep. There's no universally agreed-upon definition of un-christian anyway. They don't all agree with each other, and there are interpretations of scripture that invalidate or ignore certain homophobic comments. I think religion is primarily used as a justification for an attitude, not the thing that causes it.
     
    #17 Hexagon, Dec 10, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
  18. CJliving

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2014
    Messages:
    1,036
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Gender:
    Male (trans*)
    Gender Pronoun:
    He
    Sexual Orientation:
    Gay
    Out Status:
    All but family
    I am Christian and I don't believe that being gay is a sin.

    Matthew Vines is awesome, definitely look at his videos. The Bible is subject to error (Dante found one such error in the translation of Moses as having horns instead of a large forehead) and bias (look at arguments for left-handedness, slavery, patriarchy, inter-racial relationships, and tattoos). The Bible absolutely has to be taken in context of who wrote it, when, and for what purpose; and then apply it to today and the individual situation. A lot of the Leviticus Laws, for example, were written to protect people from diseases and such that simple don't apply today (because science!).

    Personally, my biggest argument is nature. God created all the animals. Animals have no original sin. There are over 1 500 species that display homosexual tendencies. And heterosexuality versus homosexuality is based on the male/female sex binary. Nature? Oh yeah, that's not a real thing. There have been intersex people since the beginning, check the Talmud.

    (Now if only I could find my balls and tell my dad all this...)
     
  19. MetalRice

    Full Member

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages:
    29
    Likes Received:
    0
    Location:
    Florida
    Of course, I'm a fairly religious protestant and don't believe that being gay is a sin, and many many straight and cis Christians feel the same way that I do. It's all about taking the Bible in the context of who wrote it and when they wrote it, taking the core of it's message as your guideline, and remember that some parts of it may have been motivated by men's desires, misunderstood or mistranslated.
     
    #19 MetalRice, Dec 10, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2015
  20. Libra Neko

    Regular Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2014
    Messages:
    936
    Likes Received:
    1
    Location:
    the world my mind created
    Gender:
    Female
    Gender Pronoun:
    She
    Sexual Orientation:
    Bisexual
    Out Status:
    Some people
    There is a gay Methodist pastor in Tucson. My sister and her husband are also Methodists (that's how I knew about the pastor), and they don't see the bible as being the word of God.