Men's rights (and feminism)

This is a really good topic actually. I work in an office predominantly surrounded by women and it can be quite upsetting at times. There are lots of discussions and comments amongst themselves regarding how difficult it is to be a woman with work, children, keeping healthy etc etc and how listening to them most of it seems to be the fault of men. But as a guy if I have anything wrong I am often talked down to as it is like you say it seems I am expected to be a certain way because I am male and that is how I should be.

it is just a really awkward situation I encounter as there does seem to be this sort of girl power revival thing going on with this notion that women are being oppressed, but I do genuinely see more discrimination in the workplace against men.

 

I agree--men's issues are important and they are often overlooked. There are a few factors going on here and it's a complicated situation, but this is how I see it:

Some people (like the so-called "MRA" movement) regard feminism as the cause of all men's issues and the cause of all problems in general. They claim to be fighting for men's rights, but what they are really doing is fighting against feminism, and often they end up coming off as misogynistic and they consider non-issues like "friend zoning" to be a "men's issue" ("friend zoning" can affect any gender, and the idea of "owing sex" is absurd in the first place).

When I think of "men's issues", I'm not talking about being friend-zoned or not being allowed to be a hunter-gatherer anymore, I'm thinking of issues like men being disfavored in custody hearings, men being guilty until proven innocent when accused of sexual assault, or routine infant circumcision. Feminists claim that they care about these issues, but it often seems to me that they gloss over them, preferring instead to attack the "patriarchy", and consequently having little effect on men's issues. While I agree that many men's issues are a result of the same sexist system that negatively affects women, some of them aren't and this needs to be recognized.

And of course as you mentioned, there are more social issues, such as the expectation that men be stoic and emotionally lacking. This has always been important to me, since emotionally speaking, I am not much a stereotypical "man". True gender equality doesn't ignore men's issues. And if a man speaks up about an issue that affects him, he shouldn't be dismissed as "whining" or "privileged".

 

Also just watched the video you linked and that was spot on too. On a personal level my family have always been deeply conservative with my father constantly scathing me with remarks comparing me to a woman or his idea of a gay stereotype. I am not flamboyant not out to him but unless I am thing, muscle drinking lots of beer, sleeping with lots of women and just "manly" then I get these remarks.

I don't really let them upset me but it has meant I am not open with anyone really with how I feel or what I think, and that is probably more damaging than anything.

 

Feminism is a really tough issue to collectively debate and advocate for, because one person's idea of feminism might be completely different than another's.
My male cousin had a hard time growing up because he's always been so sensitive, and he was made fun of for it for most of his childhood. While he has always been athletic, he was stronger in art class than gym, and he really stood out because of this. I do believe that issues like this are important as well, and they do get overlooked.
I also worry about feminism, at least in first world societies, sometimes being used as an excuse by women to play the victim. In some situations - not all the time, but sometimes. When you compare a well off, independent white woman with a high level of education and a woman of colour with no education who was married off at the age of 13, you're now talking about two different kinds of feminism. The first woman is a minority group only in that she is a woman, while the other woman is a minority in all other ways beyond being a woman and faces much more discrimination.
That being said, we don't really look at issues such as "equality of race" in terms of advocating for both sides, because white people don't face nearly as much discrimination as people of colour. We advocate for those who have faced discrimination throughout history and continue to face discrimination. I think the same can be said of "equality of genders". We are trying to bring women up to the same level as men. We're always fighting for the minority, because that's where the most work has to be done.
I think that while it is important to place less expectation of "what is means to be a man" on the males in our society, that isn't a priority for feminist groups. It is a component of what it means to be a feminist, but we're always actively fighting for those who currently need the most help.

And that's just my opinion, out of many others! And to be honest, what I thought of feminism a couple years ago is completely different than what I think of it now - my opinion on this topic is constantly evolving as I learn more and hear more points of view on the subject.

 

I have mixed feelings on feminism. I completely understand why it is needed and how it can be helpful to several people around the world whether they be female or male.

But I have seen how feminism can go wrong as well. Like when I first start my questioning of gender as a teen. I told a teacher about my feelings on pronouns and her response was that the men of my life had brain washed me into thinking male pronouns were better than female pronouns. I've seen women who say that they believe feminism to mean that men should never hit women but that women can hit men. I have seen and known a lot of feminist who want to use this movement to make women greater than men and make men lesser than.
This was the image of feminism that females around me showed since I was young. So it was something I stayed away from. It took till I was 17/18 years old for someone to explain that it was a movement meant to help everyone stand upon equal ground no matter their gender.

And see that is what I can get behind. Being equal no matter gender, sex, sexual orientation, skin color, education level, economic background, etc. Just everyone be equal and be free to be who they are. I was then told that this was a different movement all together and because I supported that movement I was against feminism and thus an awful person (yay tumble. What a supportive place -note sarcasm-)

And then there is feminism and how I have seen feminist treat men, which is actually pretty awful. I have seen a woman yell that she has a right to act as manly as she choose, but then she turned around and told her 11 year old to man up when he cried at something sad in a movie.

 

Sorry, but I just cannot stand Laci Green and I think it's deplorable that she is given airtime to teach this to teens while all other opinions are silenced. She couldn't even make it 30 seconds in without reverting to that phrase of "men seeing women as sex objects", if there's anything sexist in that video it's her!

Feminism used to be be about equal rights as society was heavily tilted in favour of men, but it just isn't anymore. If a women faces a problem, it's not sexist or the patriarchy, it's just a problem that needs resolved (although many feminist arguments are just invented now) and the same issue goes for mens issues. Gendering every single problem delegitimises the other gender who faces the exact same problem, it's time to end this lunacy of whom is the most oppressed and actually resolve issues which are real as putting the spotlight on one gender only serves to completely ignore the other.

When stories like this actually make it into the media we need to wake up! Air conditioning in your office is sexist. True story - Telegraph

 

Sadly, the reason that males are not free to show their feelings, is because of Patriarchy. This dictates to us how males SHOULD act, they should be strong, they should be in charge and they should not fell feelings. This is what feminism is about, equality between sexes. Both sexes. I taught my son to talk about his feelings as I did my girls. When the younger generation only sees Feminism as FOR WOMEN, this is what causes the problem. Feminism is not ONLY for women, but to smash the Patriarchy, and this is what holds males back. It is not for only women, it is for giving our sons the right to their bodies by not allowing parts of his body to be hacked off at birth, it is for male victims of rape and abuse, it is for males having the right to stay home and take care of their kids and for the right to cry if hurt. People don't seem to get this. They assume that feminism is only for women, they could not be MORE wrong.

---------- Post added 13th Mar 2016 at 04:08 PM ----------

Honestly, Feminists, or so called Feminists who advocate this type of BS, just need to be slapped. I get sick and tired of people thinking that this is what Feminism is. It is not. It does not give you the right to slap a man and expect that you get dispensation because you are a little woman. Smaller men do not go against lager ones because they will get the crap kicked out of them and women who are smaller than men who think they can get away for this are just as bad as MRAs IMO.

 

I don't want to get into a debate about modern feminism and "men's rights" activists, but I'll just say this: I have a major issue with someone trying to silence debate when someone says "men have problems too."

 

Yep, I agree completely with that. Some feminists don't seem to want to discuss men's issues. Some don't want others to discuss them either, which is truly bizarre behavior to me.

 

I hate MRAs, but I agree men have issues as well. This man I knew had a bunch of custody issues just because he was a man. He was very good with kids, but his ex manipulated things a lot.

 

Well I might be trans, but I live my daily life as a man (like any other closeted mtf person), and from this perspective... I feel quite repressed on many levels, and I always have felt so in my life. Sure, my being different is due to being on the female end of the spectrum, but! People perceive me as male and my greater sensitivity, interests, lack of desire to be the dominant partner... pretty much whenever I find myself in a social situation I feel pressured to repress myself and conform to some expected behaviour.

Now, you could say women face the same problem, but... actually it's not the case. (Cis)women are offered much greater freedom of expression. And it is this aspect that I think diffentiates male problems from female ones statistically - women face more explicit discrimination and abuse, men are in turn socially repressed. Plus, everything that can happen to a woman, besides getting pregnant, can happen to a man, and vice versa.

In general I dislike feminism as a term. I prefer "gender equality", or, that I'm simply for equality in general. Perhaps I'm an idealist, but I strongly believe gender equality should start with a gender neutral name of the movement. Making problems gendered only invalidates the same problems faced by the other sex. Yes, it is important to speak of statistics and who faces more of what on average, but it's also good to leave it at that.


Are my views influenced by the fact I live my life perceived as a guy? Of course. And this way I just can't help but notice how unhappy expectations of what a man should be make me. Yes, in my case I can "fix that" and transtion (to face different set of issues but it's irrelevant to the topic), but at the same time there are cis men who do not differ from me besides trangender aspect. And living through that, I can't help but be in favour of men's rights. To protect the "unmanly" ones and erase the manly concept. Let people be what they want to be, freely expressed. Stop the privilege narration, and just approach every problem without bias (both well and ill intended bias might I add).

So... gender equality, or simply, equality. I do think that while a lot of feminists would side with me, I also see that mainstream feminism favours women when it comes to noticing problems. And to conclude, I would prefer a gender blind approach to human rights.

Although, with many people, challenging patriarchy is the only way to start any changes. But... once that is done, it is better to move onto what I postulate.

 

Personally, I don't think 3rd wave feminism is necessary. I support feminists/MRAs/egalitarians/humanists/whatever else as long as they support equality, but I think men and women are more or less equal in society today. They're both (dis)advantaged in different ways, and most things feminists consider inequality today aren't a problem ("wage gap", "manspreading", gamergate, etc). That being said, I'm 100% more discussion of mens' issues, they're ignored too much, and it's absurd that people believe discussing them is somehow misogynistic.

One thing I didn't expect when I started living as a boy (I'm FTM transgender), is that men are so nice. A lot of feminists just take the most loud, bigoted, annoying boys and project they're behavior onto all males--it's ridiculous. I'm treated practically exactly the same since transitioning, and I've met maybe 3 men that are anything like how they describe them all to be in the last 15 years--they are looking for an itch to scratch.

It also made it a lot harder for me to come to terms with my gender because, though I personally thought it was BS, I internalized all of the things they said about men and thought to be a boy I had to be super masculine and practically emotionless. 3rd wave feminism has been nothing but detrimental to me, and I think Lacy Green is very misinformed on a lot of issues. I appreciate her talking about mens' issues, but decontextualizing mens' issues and making them about women is hardly better than no recognition at all.

 

The thing is feminsts have the typical aggression arising from oppression cyle. It's the effect of centuries of sexism. A hundred years ago women were told that they can't be successful at work, that they can't do what men can. That triggers the same kind of rage that gay men have in societies that aren't accepting. I personally felt it when I was told that I being a male can never nurture and love my children as good as a female. I realised how women feel and what this defensiveness is all about. But the problem is that most feminists don't realise is that as long as there are gender stereotypes and set gender roles for both genders equality is never going to exist.
What's worse is there are feminists who contradict themselves. Struggles for equality is tipping over to greed for becoming the better sex. What people don't realise is that there are far more differences with in the same gender rather than between the genders.
The other day we were having a class on parkinsonism and the teacher said multi tasking is a problem with the disease but that's a problem universal to all men. The joy in the faces of few girls was such a pity. What's worse is that people don't realize the harmful effects of male gender expectations. Boxing up ones feeling in order to be viewed to be masculine and the constant need to prove the same is the cause of many social issues like domestic violence and group rapes. I hope the feminists realise that working towards a genderless society is the best form of equality and is essential for the society!

 

You do realise that all of those people are pretty much incompatible. MRA's make good points, but they just reverse feminist logic against feminists, it's entertaining to watch but it doesn't achieve anything. Egalitarianism is by definition the only one which recognises all issues.

 

Whilst what I'm on I think is similar lines, what is the definition of feminazi?

Reason being is I thought that word meant hatred to all men and wanting to kill all men; as nazi's were a political group who killed thousands of people just because they weren't the same as them. However, I've seen people call themselves and been called feminazi's from when the sounds of what they've said they're wanting complete equality for all genders.

So just wanting some clearance on this ... Thank-you.

 

What a great subject!! As a female, I believe that men who are sensitive are seen as gay, or if they are with their kids, younger relatives or as a volunteer to big brothers, they are view as pedophiles. My now 30 year old brother, want to be a volunteer with the local little league, (he was drafted by the Royals, but he had TJ surgery and retired.) but they want to know why a single man wants to know why he wants to coach.

We should be able to do what we want without labels.

 

I think part of the problem with feminism (which is why the misguided Mens Right Movement as we know it has sprung up) is mens issues are simply not given a platform (either due to innocent lack of resource or deliberate exclusion). I think largely many feminism see such issues as a "threat", a removal of the spotlight, or see male issues as somehow "evening out the balance" or deserved even.

Whilst it is often claimed "feminism is about equality for all" it makes rational sense that a movement established solely for women's rights and largely made up of female participants would have some degree of bias towards female issues. Feminism is still very much about equality for women first.

Now there are certainly some men's issues that can be touched upon indirectly by feminism (things like equal paternity pay/leave), but you rarely hear feminists discussing for example inequalities in healthcare for men (reduced funding for men and lower life expectancies), in education, or increased difficulties men face in the court system (be it with custody or divorce biases, or the gross exaggeration of male sentences in criminal cases).

That is a major problem. Many feminists do have an attitude "well men should fix there own problems" and then go on to complain when people like MRAs do raise them, which then provokes MRAs leading to a constant cycle of animosity and aggression between the groups and both movements being ridiculed.

Ultimately I think when it comes to gender we need to move on from feminism and towards egalitarianism so that inequalities can be address where they occur, rather than one group receiving biased attention.

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2016 at 11:01 AM ----------

Well as a gay man also I can attest to this.

Straight men get a really bad rep from women at times. In relationships for example they are expected to literally worship their partner, showering them with gifts and attention etc. The onus is often on them to "be a better lover", and reading both women's and men's magazines it is usually about "giving her a better orgasm" not the other way round. If men cheat they are definitely monsters, if women cheat "he probably didn't keep her satisfied".

I've quoted these above two posts together to demonstrate how often this idea of "the patriarchy" is so wrong.

As above women are very often responsible for and reinforcing of negative social pressures placed upon men. By describing it constantly as a "fault of the patriarchy" the blame is quite unfairly placed upon men. It is a "male problem", "men are responsible".

 

Feminazi is usually just used for really misandrist radical feminists, but sometimes anti-feminists just call all feminists that because they think all feminists are awful. If anyone calls themselves that, they're probably just joking around.

---------- Post added 14th Mar 2016 at 11:21 AM ----------

Mens' rights activists (and feminists alike) are a very mixed group. A lot of them are decent people. I try to separate people from their labels, because at this point, they're practically meaningless.