Greek mythology and the origins of love - Empty Closets - A safe online community for gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered people coming out

silas99 · 16th Feb 2009, 09:52 AM

OK so I'm a real geek and I love the ancient classics. I know some people get really bored by it but have a read of this extract from Plato's symposium. Give it a go, I havent met anyone who hasn't loved this interpretation of love. Basically its about a few friends who get together and debate the origins of Love....this is one of their stories. It's beautifully written and is just a small section of Plato's story, but the best part.

Anyone interested can read the whole thing here:

http://www.ac-nice.fr/philo/textes/P...-Symposium.htm

“Mankind ; he said, judging by their neglect of him, have never, as I think, at all understood the power of Love. For if they had understood him they would surely have built noble temples and altars, and offered solemn sacrifices in his honour ; “
“The sexes were not two as they are now, but originally three in number ; there was man, woman, and the union of the two // the primeval man was round, his back and sides forming a circle ; and he had four hands and four feet, one head with two faces, looking opposite ways, set on a round neck and precisely alike ; also four ears, two privy members, and the remainder to correspond. Now the sexes were three, and such as I have described them ; because the sun, moon, and earth are three ; — and the man was originally the child of the sun, the woman of the earth, and the man-woman of the moon, which is made up of sun and earth, and they were all round and moved round and round : like their parents. Terrible was their might and strength, and the thoughts of their hearts were great, and they made an attack upon the gods // Doubt reigned in the celestial councils. Should they kill them and annihilate the race with thunderbolts, as they had done the giants, then there would be an end of the sacrifices and worship which men offered to them ; but, on the other hand, the gods could not suffer their insolence to be unrestrained.
At last, after a good deal of reflection, Zeus discovered a way. He said : “Methinks I have a plan which will humble their pride and improve their manners ; men shall continue to exist, but I will cut them in two and then they will be diminished in strength and increased in numbers ; this will have the advantage of making them more profitable to us. They shall walk upright on two legs // After the division the two parts of man, each desiring his other half, came together, and throwing their arms about one another, entwined in mutual embraces, longing to grow into one, they were on the point of dying from hunger and self-neglect, because they did not like to do anything apart ;// They were being destroyed, when Zeus in pity of them invented a new plan : he turned the parts of generation round to the front, for this had not been always their position and they sowed the seed no longer as hitherto like grasshoppers in the ground, but in one another ; and after the transposition the male generated in the female in order that by the mutual embraces of man and woman they might breed, and the race might continue ; or if man came to man they might be satisfied, and rest, and go their ways to the business of life : so ancient is the desire of one another which is implanted in us, reuniting our original nature, making one of two, and healing the state of man.
Each of us when separated, having one side only, like a flat fish, is but the indenture of a man, and he is always looking for his other half. Men who are a section of that double nature which was once called Androgynous are lovers of women ; // the women who are a section of the woman do not care for men, but have female attachments ; the female companions are of this sort. But they who are a section of the male follow the male, and while they are young, being slices of the original man, they hang about men and embrace them, and they are themselves the best of boys and youths, because they have the most manly nature. Some indeed assert that they are shameless, but this is not true ; for they do not act thus from any want of shame, but because they are valiant and manly, and have a manly countenance, and they embrace that which is like them. And these when they grow up become our statesmen, and these only, which is a great proof of the truth of what I am saving. When they reach manhood they are loves of youth, and are not naturally inclined to marry or beget children, — if at all, they do so only in obedience to the law ; but they are satisfied if they may be allowed to live with one another unwedded ; and such a nature is prone to love and ready to return love, always embracing that which is akin to him. And when one of them meets with his other half, the actual half of himself, whether he be a lover of youth or a lover of another sort, the pair are lost in an amazement of love and friendship and intimacy, and would not be out of the other’s sight, as I may say, even for a moment : these are the people who pass their whole lives together ; yet they could not explain what they desire of one another. For the intense yearning which each of them has towards the other does not appear to be the desire of lover’s intercourse, but of something else which the soul of either evidently desires and cannot tell, and of which she has only a dark and doubtful presentiment. Suppose Hephaestus, with his instruments, to come to the pair who are lying side, by side and to say to them, “What do you people want of one another ?” they would be unable to explain. And suppose further, that when he saw their perplexity he said : “Do you desire to be wholly one ; always day and night to be in one another’s company ? for if this is what you desire, I am ready to melt you into one and let you grow together, so that being two you shall become one, and while you live a common life as if you were a single man, and after your death in the world below still be one departed soul instead of two — I ask whether this is what you lovingly desire, and whether you are satisfied to attain this ?” — there is not a man of them who when he heard the proposal would deny or would not acknowledge that this meeting and melting into one another, this becoming one instead of two, was the very expression of his ancient need. And the reason is that human nature was originally one and we were a whole, and the desire and pursuit of the whole is called love. //
Wherefore let us exhort all men to piety, that we may avoid evil, and obtain the good, of which Love is to us the lord and minister ; and let no one oppose him — he is the enemy of the gods who oppose him. // I believe that if our loves were perfectly accomplished, and each one returning to his primeval nature had his original true love, then our race would be happy.

Fiorino · 16th Feb 2009, 10:20 AM

I heard this in Philosophy class, cool story huh

Ojala · 16th Feb 2009, 03:49 PM

"OK so I'm a real geek and I love the ancient classics"
Why do you say this like it is a bad thing?
It's awesome!

I've always loved this story but I've never read it in such detail so, thank you so much for this!

Bookmarked · 16th Feb 2009, 04:10 PM

As much as I generally dislike Plato for his ideas he puts forwards in Republic, Symposium is one of his better works, and this is one of the best passages of the whole text.

An interesting side point, I believe that later on in Symposium, Plato presents a fascinating concept using the word "kaloskaiagathos" meaning (if memory serves) "physically and spiritually beautiful" and then goes on to talk about how a nice looking body means there has to be a nice looking soul inside, which is rather reflected in this piece.

**lostinthought9** · 16th Feb 2009, 06:16 PM

ooooh....I LOVE Greek Mythology!!
I heard this story before, on Xena, of course XD...but I never read the passage.
Thanks for sharing!!

FinalFantasyFan · 16th Feb 2009, 06:53 PM

I actually took a class last semester all about classic Greek Literature and am currently enrolled in a class that surveys the works of Plato as well as some Latin and Italian stuff. We read the Symposium at the very beginning of the semester, and it was really interesting. I think that some of our best discussions thus far have been about the symposium. I like the speech of Aristophanes; it is probably the most entertaining of all of them, and it does make me feel good. I just hope that I do well on my midterm on Plato and Virgil on Thursday

Synth177 · 16th Feb 2009, 06:56 PM

I love Greek mythology! I was the only person in my class that actually enjoyed Homer's Odyssey. I'm also 50% Greek so I guess it's in my blood.

No One · 16th Feb 2009, 06:56 PM

I love mythology

silas99 · 17th Feb 2009, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostinthought9

ooooh....I LOVE Greek Mythology!!
I heard this story before, on Xena, of course XD...but I never read the passage.
Thanks for sharing!!

Haha! Could have guessed from the picture that you're a xena buff. I use to love that show as a kid...havent seen it for years! I think though I may be the only lesbian who watched it for the mythology and not for the half naked women prancing around in torn up outfits!

RENThead · 24th Feb 2009, 06:48 AM

you should listen to a song called 'origins of love' from the musical 'hedwig and the angry inch' its about this...
it is amazing... what im getting my tattoo of

xXHolic · 24th Feb 2009, 01:49 PM

Πλάτων is one of the greatest greeks ever!
so proudto be greek! :')

premiumheart · 25th Feb 2009, 01:36 AM

I'm a Greek mythology geek as well, but I haven't read that story before, so it's nice to know more about something I'm quite passionate about.

davo-man · 25th Feb 2009, 01:53 AM

+ YouTube Video

Here's the vid RENThead was talking about

As soon as I started reading the story it's what I thought too

RENThead · 26th Feb 2009, 05:27 AM

nice to know im not the only one who can relate everything to a musical

thanks

(ive never been able to figure out how to get a video into a thread here)

redsapphire · 26th Feb 2009, 12:44 PM

Hey I also love Greek Literature, I'm studying Classical Civalisation at school and we study the playwrites like Euripides and Sophocles.

Jenni7117 · 26th Feb 2009, 11:55 PM

The story of cupid and psyche is my all time favorite! Its soooo good.

16th Feb 2009, 09:52 AM	#1
silas99 Nic Full Member Gender: Female Orientation: Girl fancier Out Status: Not so much having tea with Aslan anymore! Location: In my own world....Wales! Age: 26 Posts: 521 Join Date: Nov 2008	Greek mythology and the origins of love OK so I'm a real geek and I love the ancient classics. I know some people get really bored by it but have a read of this extract from Plato's symposium. Give it a go, I havent met anyone who hasn't loved this interpretation of love. Basically its about a few friends who get together and debate the origins of Love....this is one of their stories. It's beautifully written and is just a small section of Plato's story, but the best part. Anyone interested can read the whole thing here: http://www.ac-nice.fr/philo/textes/P...-Symposium.htm “Mankind ; he said, judging by their neglect of him, have never, as I think, at all understood the power of Love. For if they had understood him they would surely have built noble temples and altars, and offered solemn sacrifices in his honour ; “ “The sexes were not two as they are now, but originally three in number ; there was man, woman, and the union of the two // the primeval man was round, his back and sides forming a circle ; and he had four hands and four feet, one head with two faces, looking opposite ways, set on a round neck and precisely alike ; also four ears, two privy members, and the remainder to correspond. Now the sexes were three, and such as I have described them ; because the sun, moon, and earth are three ; — and the man was originally the child of the sun, the woman of the earth, and the man-woman of the moon, which is made up of sun and earth, and they were all round and moved round and round : like their parents. Terrible was their might and strength, and the thoughts of their hearts were great, and they made an attack upon the gods // Doubt reigned in the celestial councils. Should they kill them and annihilate the race with thunderbolts, as they had done the giants, then there would be an end of the sacrifices and worship which men offered to them ; but, on the other hand, the gods could not suffer their insolence to be unrestrained. At last, after a good deal of reflection, Zeus discovered a way. He said : “Methinks I have a plan which will humble their pride and improve their manners ; men shall continue to exist, but I will cut them in two and then they will be diminished in strength and increased in numbers ; this will have the advantage of making them more profitable to us. They shall walk upright on two legs // After the division the two parts of man, each desiring his other half, came together, and throwing their arms about one another, entwined in mutual embraces, longing to grow into one, they were on the point of dying from hunger and self-neglect, because they did not like to do anything apart ;// They were being destroyed, when Zeus in pity of them invented a new plan : he turned the parts of generation round to the front, for this had not been always their position and they sowed the seed no longer as hitherto like grasshoppers in the ground, but in one another ; and after the transposition the male generated in the female in order that by the mutual embraces of man and woman they might breed, and the race might continue ; or if man came to man they might be satisfied, and rest, and go their ways to the business of life : so ancient is the desire of one another which is implanted in us, reuniting our original nature, making one of two, and healing the state of man. Each of us when separated, having one side only, like a flat fish, is but the indenture of a man, and he is always looking for his other half. Men who are a section of that double nature which was once called Androgynous are lovers of women ; // the women who are a section of the woman do not care for men, but have female attachments ; the female companions are of this sort. But they who are a section of the male follow the male, and while they are young, being slices of the original man, they hang about men and embrace them, and they are themselves the best of boys and youths, because they have the most manly nature. Some indeed assert that they are shameless, but this is not true ; for they do not act thus from any want of shame, but because they are valiant and manly, and have a manly countenance, and they embrace that which is like them. And these when they grow up become our statesmen, and these only, which is a great proof of the truth of what I am saving. When they reach manhood they are loves of youth, and are not naturally inclined to marry or beget children, — if at all, they do so only in obedience to the law ; but they are satisfied if they may be allowed to live with one another unwedded ; and such a nature is prone to love and ready to return love, always embracing that which is akin to him. And when one of them meets with his other half, the actual half of himself, whether he be a lover of youth or a lover of another sort, the pair are lost in an amazement of love and friendship and intimacy, and would not be out of the other’s sight, as I may say, even for a moment : these are the people who pass their whole lives together ; yet they could not explain what they desire of one another. For the intense yearning which each of them has towards the other does not appear to be the desire of lover’s intercourse, but of something else which the soul of either evidently desires and cannot tell, and of which she has only a dark and doubtful presentiment. Suppose Hephaestus, with his instruments, to come to the pair who are lying side, by side and to say to them, “What do you people want of one another ?” they would be unable to explain. And suppose further, that when he saw their perplexity he said : “Do you desire to be wholly one ; always day and night to be in one another’s company ? for if this is what you desire, I am ready to melt you into one and let you grow together, so that being two you shall become one, and while you live a common life as if you were a single man, and after your death in the world below still be one departed soul instead of two — I ask whether this is what you lovingly desire, and whether you are satisfied to attain this ?” — there is not a man of them who when he heard the proposal would deny or would not acknowledge that this meeting and melting into one another, this becoming one instead of two, was the very expression of his ancient need. And the reason is that human nature was originally one and we were a whole, and the desire and pursuit of the whole is called love. // Wherefore let us exhort all men to piety, that we may avoid evil, and obtain the good, of which Love is to us the lord and minister ; and let no one oppose him — he is the enemy of the gods who oppose him. // I believe that if our loves were perfectly accomplished, and each one returning to his primeval nature had his original true love, then our race would be happy.

16th Feb 2009, 10:20 AM	#2
Fiorino Fio Full Member Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: Most people Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Posts: 1,005 Join Date: Jan 2008	Re: Greek mythology and the origins of love I heard this in Philosophy class, cool story huh __________________ Why is it that as a culture, we're more comfortable seeing two men holding guns than holding hands?

16th Feb 2009, 03:49 PM	#3
Ojala Member Regular Member Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: Some people Location: Edmonton, Alberta Age: 20 Posts: 21 Join Date: Sep 2008	Re: Greek mythology and the origins of love "OK so I'm a real geek and I love the ancient classics" Why do you say this like it is a bad thing? It's awesome! I've always loved this story but I've never read it in such detail so, thank you so much for this!

16th Feb 2009, 04:10 PM	#4
Bookmarked Well Known Full Member Gender: Male Orientation: A gentleman's gentleman. Out Status: O-U-T out. Uh-huh Location: Derby, UK. Age: 21 Posts: 168 Join Date: Jul 2008	Re: Greek mythology and the origins of love As much as I generally dislike Plato for his ideas he puts forwards in Republic, Symposium is one of his better works, and this is one of the best passages of the whole text. An interesting side point, I believe that later on in Symposium, Plato presents a fascinating concept using the word "kaloskaiagathos" meaning (if memory serves) "physically and spiritually beautiful" and then goes on to talk about how a nice looking body means there has to be a nice looking soul inside, which is rather reflected in this piece. __________________ People on the internet are silly. Why? Click here

16th Feb 2009, 06:16 PM	#5
lostinthought9 EC's Biggest Xena Fan EC Moderator Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: A few people Location: Louisiana Age: 21 Posts: 2,059 Join Date: Jan 2008	Re: Greek mythology and the origins of love ooooh....I LOVE Greek Mythology!! I heard this story before, on Xena, of course XD...but I never read the passage. Thanks for sharing!! __________________

16th Feb 2009, 06:53 PM	#6
FinalFantasyFan Well Known Regular Member Gender: 男人 (Male) Orientation: 同性 (Gay) Out Status: If you can't tell, then you don't know me. :) Location: A^2, MI Posts: 121 Join Date: Feb 2009	Re: Greek mythology and the origins of love I actually took a class last semester all about classic Greek Literature and am currently enrolled in a class that surveys the works of Plato as well as some Latin and Italian stuff. We read the Symposium at the very beginning of the semester, and it was really interesting. I think that some of our best discussions thus far have been about the symposium. I like the speech of Aristophanes; it is probably the most entertaining of all of them, and it does make me feel good. I just hope that I do well on my midterm on Plato and Virgil on Thursday __________________ Someone is on your side, No one is Alone - Into the woods 地球はまわる君をのせていつかきっと出会うぼくらをのせて - Castle in the Sky

16th Feb 2009, 06:56 PM	#7
Synth177 Well Known Regular Member Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: Out to everyone Posts: 107 Join Date: Jan 2009	Re: Greek mythology and the origins of love I love Greek mythology! I was the only person in my class that actually enjoyed Homer's Odyssey. I'm also 50% Greek so I guess it's in my blood.

16th Feb 2009, 06:56 PM	#8
No One Eternally Male Crazed! Full Member Gender: Male Orientation: Gay Out Status: Unofficially out to everyone but my family. Age: 18 Posts: 1,021 Join Date: Oct 2008	Re: Greek mythology and the origins of love I love mythology __________________

24th Feb 2009, 06:48 AM	#10
RENThead EC Addict Full Member Gender: Female Orientation: Gay / Asexual Out Status: everyone who asks Location: Cork, Ireland Age: 22 Posts: 447 Join Date: Feb 2008	Re: Greek mythology and the origins of love you should listen to a song called 'origins of love' from the musical 'hedwig and the angry inch' its about this... it is amazing... what im getting my tattoo of

24th Feb 2009, 01:49 PM	#11
xXHolic Κοίταξέ με δυο φορές.. Full Member Gender: Male Orientation: though was bi, but something has changed =/ Out Status: 99.9% Location: Athens, Greece Posts: 368 Join Date: Jan 2009	Re: Greek mythology and the origins of love Πλάτων is one of the greatest greeks ever! so proudto be greek! :') __________________ all the birds shall sing at dawn, blessed and wet with joy. you and i will meet one day, under the night sky lit by soft black stars.

25th Feb 2009, 01:36 AM	#12
premiumheart Boy Next Door Regular Member Gender: Male Orientation: I like guys. And maybe girls, too. Out Status: My parents, my sister, and a cousin... Location: Philippines Age: 22 Posts: 71 Join Date: Feb 2009	Re: Greek mythology and the origins of love I'm a Greek mythology geek as well, but I haven't read that story before, so it's nice to know more about something I'm quite passionate about. __________________ "Beneath the million stars there's no need to pretend... I look around tonight and wonder why we can't end... The best kept secret..." ~Bare~

26th Feb 2009, 05:27 AM	#14
RENThead EC Addict Full Member Gender: Female Orientation: Gay / Asexual Out Status: everyone who asks Location: Cork, Ireland Age: 22 Posts: 447 Join Date: Feb 2008	Re: Greek mythology and the origins of love nice to know im not the only one who can relate everything to a musical thanks (ive never been able to figure out how to get a video into a thread here)

26th Feb 2009, 12:44 PM	#15
redsapphire EC's resident witch Full Member Gender: Female Orientation: Wow Mama Out Status: most except family Location: Bonny Lingland Age: 20 Posts: 877 Join Date: Jul 2008	Re: Greek mythology and the origins of love Hey I also love Greek Literature, I'm studying Classical Civalisation at school and we study the playwrites like Euripides and Sophocles. __________________ *Don't Bend, Don't Break, Baby Don't Back Down...*

26th Feb 2009, 11:55 PM	#16
Jenni7117 Member Regular Member Gender: Female Orientation: Lesbian Out Status: Out to everyone Location: san francisco Age: 23 Posts: 27 Join Date: May 2008	Re: Greek mythology and the origins of love The story of cupid and psyche is my all time favorite! Its soooo good.