Transgender Bathroom Debate

I love this game! [maybe we could make a general one after].

But I couldn't think of anything that didn't have ''plot holes'' so I might read after school.

You know, I have some time before I have to leave so I'll post one and you can counter it, see if you got the same ''plot holes'' as me. (because I'm guessing you enjoy this game otherwise you wouldn't post it)

If bathrooms are not segregated then why segregate at all? Bathrooms are segregated by sex so men can get their penis out and women can use the tampon box without interference from the other.


And the reason I'm calling this a ''game'' is because my opinions aren't real when I'm playing this as a ''game''. Sometimes in sociology class it's not a game though, and it's a real debate. I enjoy those too.

 

Playing devil's advocate:

Why do we want to use the bathroom in the company of the same sex? Privacy and comfort. We take care of "business" (even if inside a stall) that is uncouth to speak of in delicate company. I don't think guys would want to pee or poop within earshot of ladies (and vice versa). That's why some say one "relationship milestone" is when you use the bathroom and leave the door open and your partner is in the house. Now, I would say it is uncomfortable to be in the presence of the opposite sex when doing any "bathroom business." For trans people who don't pass as their identity, it creates a discomfort in the minds of others: a lady intruding on man's domain (and vice versa). I would feel discomfort using the bathroom if there was an apparent lady in the room (apparent, because I'm not asking for their gender identity).

As much as it pains to say, it may be best to use the bathroom you can pass as, for your safety and the comfort of others (unless you live in California).

Playing counter devil's advocate, how do those of y'all who are trans feel about using facilities that don't correspond to your identity? Is it more of an issue that you feel slighted you don't use the facilities that you'd want or is there a psychological feeling associated with being in the same bathroom as someone of the opposite gender? Maybe those feelings you feel (not related to dysphoria) are what some cis folk feel when there's talk about trans people in the bathroom.

 

One could argue that you're sacrificing the comfort of a majority for the comfort of the minority. Then again, the person at fault are those offended, really. However, we do live in the real world and that's how it is. One could also argue that this muddles the whole point of segregated bathrooms and leaves unwanted gray areas.

 

Trans men should use women's bathrooms because they are the perfect bodyguards against child molester southern state governers and anti LGBT christian ministers. Not to mention it gives straight women easy access to great guys to go on dates with or gay guys to be best friends with! (Sorry for stereotyping Southern state governers and Christian ministers, I'm sure some are not child molesters.... you just can never really know and it is better to be safe than sorry...)

---------- Post added 20th Apr 2016 at 12:34 PM ----------

Trans women should use men's bathrooms because it gives women a conveniant excuse to check if their husbands are not leaving the toilet seat up when outside of home... how will they ever develop good habits if they are allowed to do whatever they want outside of home...

 

I can't play Devil's Advocate on this, but my feelings are complicated.

I know I wouldn't be comfortable in a public restroom with someone who totally looks and sounds like a guy. That would rule out just having a "whoever" policy. It would also rule out allowing transitioned transmen in a Women's Room (which I'm sure transitioned transmen find reassuring). But it would also rule out *un*transitioned transwomen, which I'm sure is likely upsetting to them. (I do feel that if you've taken no apparent steps to present as female, then you really shouldn't expect to be understood as female by anybody and everybody...but I also recognize this may sound or be taken as insensitive, so I apologize if I hurt feelings in saying so.)

I also recognize that my discomfort with having people who are presenting as male in my public restroom space may simply be the result of how I've been raised and the fact that I've spent 49 years in a society that does it differently. But...

I do feel like there should be same-sex-only "safe spaces" and that public restrooms seems like a really good candidate for providing them. There are women who have very controlling male partners...and right now, a public restroom can be the *one* place where these women can be out of sight and earshot of such a partner. The one place they can explain to a friend or relative (or total stranger) that they don't feel safe, and that they don't have freedom. If their partners could follow them in here too, that last safe space goes away. And I don't like that idea. (Sure, go ahead, make the argument that the controlling male partner could cross-dress and go with their spouse...I'll laugh.)

 

Em... transgender people are just people, as such we have the same fears, social awareness and insecutities as any other person. Trans women or men who don't pass don't magically develop an immunity to fears of being stared at and questioned if they go to the bathroom. No matter how many laws come out to protect us against assault or discrimination it will still be tough to go to bathrooms that we stand out in especially as we tend to be extremely self aware of how we are perceived by others. The reason why the anti trans bathroom bills are so horrible is that they force trans women and men who pass to go to a bathroom in which we stand out in and feel out of place in, putting us at extreme risk while taking away our protections from discrimination. In fact the anti trans bill actually gives cisgender men and women an air tight excuse to go to any bathroom they want because they can just say that they are postop trans who are usually indistinguishable from their cisgender counterparts

---------- Post added 20th Apr 2016 at 04:25 PM ----------

One other thing, Biannika, trans women also need a safe place to go to just as much as cisgender women... we are some of the most vulnerable populations of society and rape and physical abuse are very real threats and we have the same fears and anxieties as cisgender women especially once we start HRT.

 

They can claim that without expecting someone to ask for their birth certificate? A rather risky move but I wouldn't be surprised if some charismatic individuals could pull this off.

 

And that is really the catch. A trans man who passes either has the choice of going to the men's bathroom and breakung the law, risking jail or a fine, or go to the women's bathroom and undoubtedly be questioned and even asked for id and made to feel like a pervert while having to deal with the dysphoria that they undoubtedly would feel in such a situation. The thing is, we are not even talking about a hypothetical situation, this is actually how things are right now in NC... trans men have to choose between breaking the law or suffering from being put in an extremely uncomfortable situation while making everyone else also uncomfortable. Obviously most choose to break the law and luckily the law is so stupid that it pretty much can't be enforced... the same is true for trans women and for some non binary people...

 

I used a co-ed bathroom a few times in college, and it was a pretty strange experience, even given that I've never been a particularly "masculine" man. But the separation of bathrooms along gender lines is still something I've grown up with my entire life and it's hard for me and most of society to break away from it. That said, the main argument for it is not that we should end the separation of bathrooms by gender, only that a trans person, who, according to them, is that gender, should be allowed to use the corresponding bathroom.

As others have said, there is some idea of discomfort with the opposite sex being in the bathroom. So the issue would be whether or not the trans person would be perceived as the opposite sex. That's a fine line of course and not one we can just write a bill for. How would we legally define "passing"? Some cis women cut their hair short and wear masculine clothing--at first glance, they might be mistaken for male. But no one's saying we should bar them from the women's bathroom.

To sum up my ramblings, there's no clean easy solution to any of this. There are always going to be issues when trans people associate themselves with traditionally gender-segregated entities, whether they be bathrooms or schools or sports teams. Even though there's no easy solution, the "bathroom bills" are the completely wrong answer.

 

Some people are gender fluid, which allows them to cheat and choose the shorter queue!

 

F*** the stupid signs and let people be shocked if they will of the presence of someone who doesn't "belong" in white toilet Y/X. Seriously, I had this conversation with some girls the other day, who said that they frequently go into the men's room if the line is too long to the ladies'. I mean, who cares? And if they care, who cares about the one who cares, lol? Not me, that's for sure. Stiff-necked party poopers *ba-dum tss*.

 

I'm with you, hon. I said women, not cis-women.

 

I don't think there really is a way to play Devil's Advocate without relying on unsubstantiated fear-mongering here. I've used all-sex bathrooms, I've been in both men's and women's rooms. First off, is there really a need for separate sex bathrooms? We all do the same thing. We don't gender our bathrooms in our homes, unless we're particiularly deranged.

But I've never had a problem using the men's room, even as a pre-surgery, pre-hormone trans man. And I think this is really the case with a lot of trans people. Up until many of these laws, like HB 2, became a big thing, I'm sure most of the people supporting these laws probably shared a bathroom with "one of us" without ever noticing. Hell, I've probably pissed at a urinal next to a Bible thumper without him raising an eyebrow.

Bathrooms shouldn't be a big issue. And yet they are. It's ridiculous.

 

Let's just have all unisex bathrooms. That would be good.

 

Can people just do their business and get out? Everyone has peed next to a trans person at some point in your life, and you never noticed. I honestly don't get why people are so obsessed with us so much, like more than we are about ourselves.

I will say, unisex or gender neutral ones are great for those who are fluid or non-binary, but other than that, I don't get why so many politicans are making a big deal out of us being in there. It's not like we're going to sexually assault someone, since more politicians have been arrested for that kind of public misconduct than we have (which has been never).

 

That may be so, but in a lot of politician's minds a trans person can't go outside without raping someone. Everything they don't like they choose not to understand, and everything they don't understand is the tool of the Devil working in league with Al Gore to destroy the world through fear of global warming. Politicians are stupid AF.

 

If anything, cis people are more likely to sexually assault trans people. Like... Hate crimes happen. And I don't mean to trigger anyone but I am speaking from personal experience.

 

Sorry if this is long...

I personally believe that bathrooms should not be separated at all. As long as there are individual stalls with walls and doors, that is a bathroom. And men don't really need urinals. There's no urinal in your bathroom at home, is there? Men can pee in a toilet like everyone else. And the whole deal with transgenders using the 'wrong' bathrooms is B.S. People need to use the bathroom, not deal with angry moms. And trans people aren't using the bathroom to kill children. They're using the bathroom.