Interesting Conversation...

[confusedkid]

Ok... so I just had a very interesting conversation with a friend of mine... he leans more to the conservative side and I lean more to the liberal/libertarian side. So we get to talking about a lot of stuff, the new Supreme Court nominee, abortion rights, the Iraq war, terrorism, and finally, because it had to come up, gay marriage... and this is just a guy from work, not a real "friend" of mine, so I haven't had the need to tell him I'm gay... (just remember that fact, it's important later)

Now, he is a quasi-religious conservative (he's not an Evangelical but goes to church and subscribes to its teachings), but bless him, he tried his best to come up with some non-religiously inspired arguments against gay marriage.

He started off his 'speech' with the usual "I don't think we should hate gay people but..." and proceeded to come up with these points:

1. Marriage between a man and woman is the BEST (notice, not "only") foundation for a family.
1a. Without the need/wish for a family, all marriage confers on couples are a few legal protections and we shouldn't change marriage in order to provide minor things like tax breaks.

2. He claims that EVERYONE is a little bit gay, or has the potential to be gay but actually being gay is just giving into hedonism.
2a. Actually coming out and proclaiming to be gay is due to past environmental trauma, some type of "dysfunction" or out of a need/desire to be rebellious and go against the prevailing social order. There is, however, probably some genetic basis that creates a predisposition to homosexuality.
2b. People enter into long-term homosexual "relationships" (he used air quotes, so I'll insert them too) because GLBT people have so developed a gay identity for themselves that people enter into and stay in gay relationships out of some need to validate who they are and what they've deluded themselves into believing.
2c. The homosexual "lifestyle" (which upon questioning he found difficult to describe) is rooted in dysfunction and rebellion cannot lead to as happy and fulfilling of a life as the majoritarian normative lifestyle can. Norms exist for a reason and it is no coincidence that heterosexual marriage is the "norm."

3. So, in conclusion, gay marriage should not be allowed because it does not fit into the societal norm, does not form a stable base for the most desirable (best) type of family, provides benefits to people who have some type of condition rooted in abuse, dysfunction or rebellion and that the homosexual lifestyle inherently involves purely physical desires (mostly experienced only as young adults) and that any long-term relationships are built around some desire to maintain the gay identity that homosexuals have built up for themselves in order to counter criticism.

Yeah... so... I'm no psychologist, but this is just what I think:

One, I actually think that this guy is EXTREMELY closeted. If you saw him, your gaydar would probably go off too. He's obviously spent a lot of time thinking about this subject (more time than I think most straight men would allot to the topic) and I think that as a conservative and a Christian, he's trying to find reasons to rationalize and explain his feelings as simply "hedonistic" and portraying the gay community as some type of dysfunctional, oversexed and simply rebellious group in order to make his own self-delusion possible. Now, I could be wrong about that, but his comments about "everybody" being attracted to the idea of same-sex, etc. points to the idea that he may be attracted to men but surpresses it...

Two, he was telling me about his own family experience with living with his single mother near the edge of poverty and thus is very family-values oriented in order to gain what he never had...

Three, his other points I find more interesting. I've often wondered if being gay is some dysfunction or, more disturbingly to me, some type of rebellion... Perhaps it is... I don't know. It's just something to think about. Also, I can't say anything about long-term gay relationships because I haven't had one lol, but do you think there's any credence to the idea that gay people spend so much time and effort building a gay identity that they feel some supreme need to say and do things to defend it? I mean, I definitely defend homosexuality and gay marriage every chance I get... would I be so passionate about this if I wasn't gay? Probably not. Am I simply defending homosexuality because its something I feel I have to do? Are we simply trying to validate ourselves? I can't say.

Four, in regards to gay stereotypes, I said that he shouldn't talk about a collective "gay lifestyle" because in reality there is no such thing-- gay people come in all shapes and sizes. I mentioned a friend of mind who NOBODY would be able to guess as being gay, even after talking to him for hours. He just doesn't fit any of the stereotypes at all... but this friend I was talking to said that his GAYDAR is near perfect and that he would DEFINITELY be able to tell who's gay, etc. I said that I thought that was very interesting... and I alluded to the fact that his GAYDAR's not so perfect if he couldn't pick up on me! (Yeah, I'm not really "femmy" at all... we started off discussing college sports and the NBA draft and I pretty much knew infinitely more about sports than he did... which is impressive considering I know nothing in comparison to most straight guys...) Yeah, so I just thought that was funny.

Anyway, what do you guys think about all this? I think most of his arguments are B.S. but I still think they're interesting to consider, especiall 2B and 2C... Well, I think it'd be interesting to read everybodys' reactions! Later!

-CK

Originally Posted by confusedkid

I've often wondered if being gay is some dysfunction or, more disturbingly to me, some type of rebellion... Perhaps it is... I don't know. It's just something to think about.

I've thought about this, too. I think for some people being gay may very well be some type of rebellion, and that's perfectly legitimate. For others maybe being gay is more innate. Ultimately, it doesn't matter to me. If people want to have homosexual relationships - for whatever reason - that's their business.

We all want simple explanations for homosexuality - for everything, I guess. It's genetic. It's choice. It's the result of psychological trauma. It's rebellion. It's dysfunction. I think that it's more complicated than "this or that" and, moreover, that it's different for everyone. For me, there is no such thing as objective truth.

Originally Posted by confusedkid

Do you think there's any credence to the idea that gay people spend so much time and effort building a gay identity that they feel some supreme need to say and do things to defend it? I mean, I definitely defend homosexuality and gay marriage every chance I get... would I be so passionate about this if I wasn't gay? Probably not. Am I simply defending homosexuality because its something I feel I have to do? Are we simply trying to validate ourselves? I can't say.

I ask myself that all the time: "Would I be so pro-gay if I weren't gay myself?" I'm absolutely certain that the answer to that is no, and that is why I'm so thankful for being gay - because it's led me to experience marginalization and stigma in such a way that I can better relate to others who've been marginalized or stigmatized for whatever reason. And therein lies my point: the fight for gay rights is only ostensibly about homosexuality. It's really about the right to be different and not be ostracized for those differences.

Are we simply trying to validate ourselves? Part of it is that, I'm sure. And why not? Aren't gay people VALID? At the same time, I know that when I'm hesitant to be more outspoken about gay rights or my own homosexuality, the thing that pushes me over the edge - that gets me to talk - is not thoughts of myself but thoughts of somebody else out there who is also struggling with being different. If that "somebody else" came up to me and asked me what he/she should do, how could I say, "Be brave. Stick up for yourself and for all the others out there like you. Never be ashamed of yourself," if I couldn't do that myself?

[confusedkid]

Yeah MotionMaker, I completely agree. I dunno, I just thought what he had to say was interesting because if this is what average America thinks about GLBT people (especially his focus on such a "deviant" lifestyle)... again, the pride parades might do a little more harm than good when the news media focuses on a bunch of hyper-sexed men in gold thongs and drag queens as what gay pride is all about, as opposed to the more "mainstreamed" GLBT people who live next door to you, live perfectly "normal," ordinary lives except that they're gay. That area doesn't get so much focus. *Sigh* Oh well.

My friend's opinions were all based on some kinda of pseudo-psychology that's been largely rejected since the 60s but for whatever reason still seems to be pervasive in mainstream thinking about GLBT people... odd.

-CK

[goratrix]

Ok... so this means that according to him, I could get AC to become gay???

[confusedkid]

Originally Posted by goratrix

Ok... so this means that according to him, I could get AC to become gay???

Possibly... I don't know, for whatever reason the whole conversation I had with him made me go back and rethink everything I thought I knew... shit. I hate this.

[goratrix]

It's an issue of self-discovery that you have to make on your own. Nobody can tell you what being gay means, or why you are that way.

I gave up trying to find an answer as to WHY, i tend to overthink things a little, and it's not healthy. Instead I use all that energy into accepting it as part of who I am.

I could refuse each and every one of his points with equally flawed reasoning, but I'm not doing that, it would be pointless and it would validate most of his points.

But all what he says is true only if you believe that homosexuality isn't real... because that's the base of he reasoning...

[goratrix]

Oh, and if he's hot, you can make him try gay sex with you... perhaps that will help him come out to himself... just as an experiment... XD

Who is AC?

[goratrix]

OHHHH CAN I? CAN I?????? PLEASE??? PRETTY PLEASE???

YAY!!! THANK YOU!!

Ok, so... AC is this guy I have a crush on... actually I've been obsessed about him for about five months now (god... it's been a long time). Now... I'm 19 (in a week) and he's 15, he's my instructor in tkd, and I teach him math some times, and he's a bit homophobic. Anyway, for the past four months (actually, ever since I joined EC, and in *** before that) I've been talking about him, in the forum and in real life (and in MSN... *hugs popboy*).

You'll find that virtually every thread on this forum I've commented in (almost every one) has a reference to AC... you can search threads started by me (click my nickname and the option will appear) most of them are about him anyway...

However, I've been working on overcomming this crush/obsession and I am getting over it slowly... still, It's hard to forget about him, and every once in a while he comes up in my mind...

Nice to have someone new that isn't bored of reading about him yet :-)

[hawkeye]

ok, marriage seems (to me) to be not only the recognizement of a union of two people, but also a social expectation of children. So, logicaly, i believe that gay marriage should be legalized with the acceptance of gays adopting.

Although you cant help it if you are attracted to guys, you can choose your pleasure. Whether you do it with a guy, or you choose a girl, you will probably still be satisfied, but I believe its your choice. Its up to the person, though, whether they can actualy live with someone for the rest of their life. A straight guy might go for a gay guy for the heck of it, but they might not want to live with a guy for the rest of their life. Its a preference, but even if you dont like onions on your burger, you might try it for the heck of it, right?

[goratrix]

Adoption... that is a whole other issue... anyway, that's one I probably won't comment (even though I have some strong opinions abou it). I know I won't do it, but I won't speak against it, for I think it's a great thing that someone can find it to love another person as a father loves a son, while there is no fisiological bond.

Originally Posted by goratrix

OHHHH CAN I? CAN I?????? PLEASE??? PRETTY PLEASE???

YAY!!! THANK YOU!!

Ok, so... AC is this guy I have a crush on... actually I've been obsessed about him for about five months now (god... it's been a long time). Now... I'm 19 (in a week) and he's 15, he's my instructor in tkd, and I teach him math some times, and he's a bit homophobic. Anyway, for the past four months (actually, ever since I joined EC, and in *** before that) I've been talking about him, in the forum and in real life (and in MSN... *hugs popboy*).

You'll find that virtually every thread on this forum I've commented in (almost every one) has a reference to AC... you can search threads started by me (click my nickname and the option will appear) most of them are about him anyway...

However, I've been working on overcomming this crush/obsession and I am getting over it slowly... still, It's hard to forget about him, and every once in a while he comes up in my mind...

Nice to have someone new that isn't bored of reading about him yet :-)

Okay, yeah, now I'm starting to remember allusions to this AC fellow. Thanks for the clarification.

[goratrix]

Of course you are... I don't expect anyone on this forum that read it for more than two days to not know about him... :-(

Anyway, I'm comming out to him, so prepare to get a whole new set of depressive writings about him :-)

I just skimmed over this therad. Wow...

I've been very active in the debate over same-sex marriage, and I have never heard some of his points. It's funny, Adam. I was thinking the same thing when reading his points (that he could possibly be closeted), and then you went and said it. Great minds think alike, eh?

I'd actually find it quite amusing to debate with him. Firstly because his points are somewhat original (but only kind of ), and secondly because I could so counter all of them.