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Atheist community and the Feminism division.

Discussion in 'Chit Chat' started by DeviantAttitude, May 31, 2016.

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  1. DeviantAttitude

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    I had no idea where to write this so I thought of this lovely community. I know its a bit off topic but I think you guys would appreciate. A bit of a disclaimer first: I'm not talking about religion per se, just the atheist community and of course everyone can and should voice their opinion, religious, spiritualist or non-religious.

    So I just finished watching AronRa's latest video (link) and I'm still impressed by the ammount of intolerance in the atheist community, which is very ironic. Like Aron said in the video he gets no hate-mail from theists, but he gets tons of hate from atheists just because he identifies as a feminist. Its like people should run away from a label of something you are, or agree with, just because there are crazy members of those movements. I asked someone who accused him of being wrong because the feminist movement is "cancerous": Why would you stop proudly calling yourself an atheist, even if members started to bomb churches or some atrocious shit like that? I believe these people have the word "feminist" or "feminism" engraved as inherently bad just because of the movements outside appearance. I call myself a feminist, however I don't associate with the movement, exactly like AronRa. But just because of the label, I am somehow wrong, even though I and the accuser both believe in gender equality for women and men.

    Like Aron said, it's dividing the community for no reason, it's a mostly tangent subject to religion. Reason Rally 2016 was "tainted" by some extreme views of the organization and there are a lot of prominent atheists that will skip the rally just because of it.

    What the hell is wrong with humanity?

    /rant
     
  2. Shadstack

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    Honestly, just don't get involved with an ideology, it just makes it so much easier for people to hate on you. For example:

    "Are you a conservative Christian?"
    "Yes!"
    "Homophobe!"

    Another:

    "Are you a feminist?"
    "Yes!"
    "Man hater!"

    See how that works? I will admit there are man-hating feminists and gay-hating conservative Christians, but people will use those to generalise a whole group.

    Also, about the atheist thing. Is it a choice? I really can't see myself becoming convinced enough by a religion, when I've seen its flaws and inconsistencies. When I say "I'm an atheist" I don't feel a sense of belonging to a group, like feminism, I see it as a personal thing. I like it that way. It's like asking me if a gay terrorist group sprouts up overnight. Would I still call myself gay? Yes, because I can't change that part of myself.

    Just be aware, people on the YouTube comment section could give two stuffs about your feelings, they're not scared to tell you to "lol go kill yourself" or "drink bleach" for having a differing opinion.

    Maybe even try and take legal action against you even if you did nothing wrong. For example, this YouTuber I watch called ArmouredSkeptic. He was debating someone on the Internet. They called his boss saying he raped somebody and try to get him fired! That is the intolerance of some. Not saying all, but some, I've seen feminists do this, probably why some get mad when they say "feminism is about equality."
     
    #2 Shadstack, May 31, 2016
    Last edited: May 31, 2016
  3. gibson234

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    The problem is that modern feminism has attached itself to atheist movements and sucked them of all there rationality. Modern feminism essentially believes we all live in the "patriarchy". A society that oppresses women at the command of men. However all evidence they present is garbage. But instead of sticking around to debate, they merely declare all criticism of their ideology as sexist and demonise those who dare oppose them. For example you saying "What the hell is wrong with humanity?".

    At this point in the western world religion has been beaten well into submission and is not much of threat (except for Islam but that's another story). The bigger threat is this radical wave of left wing Marxists who want to tear down the so called white male "ruling" class and replace them with the "oppressed" classes. By doing this all they are doing is creating racism and sexist against white males by giving the "oppressed" classes advantages over the "ruling" classes based on who they are, not what they are. As well as creating a poisonous atmosphere where different groups of people are pitted up against each other.

    There are issues that affect both males and females. But they don't fall into some Marxist ideology. They should be addressed individually in a balance way without people using any word ending in "ism".
     
  4. SHACH

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    I don't agree with demonising white males... But we do live in a patriarchy, that's undeniable, gibson234. Even in the future, I'm not sure the vestiges of patriarchy will ever truly fade and therefore feminism will always be relevant. Yes, some people get disproportionately angry about small things with little prioritisation of issues, which does no-one good. That doesn't mean that we don't still live in a patriarchy and we don't need people controlling that.
     
    #4 SHACH, May 31, 2016
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  5. DeviantAttitude

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    It's a bit of both. You can believe (or follow) and have your doubts and become an atheist. It can be and it might not be a choice. I never believed so I've always been an atheist but you can stop believing in your God if you are convinced enough.

    I agree with you on practically everything but how you said it exemplifies what I'm talking about. People are talking about the movement not the core ideology of feminism. I'm talking about the problems of people shunning Feminism because of what you said, the movement is irrational and toxic etc.
    And if we all want gender equality what is the point of blaming the movement when we could all be "united under the banner of gender equality", where everything else is pointless.

    Utopian scenario, unfortunately.
     
  6. BryanM

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    I agree with AronRa and how the divide really does cause a lot of distress within the atheist movement. There seem to be two main subgroups within most atheist movements, with one being devoted to social justice and the other that is there to be an "alternative" to group A, which means that they take hardline stances against Group A and socially mark people within Group a.. Being an atheist and involved with social justice on my campus, I have seen this rift firsthand, as the atheist group on campus while being a group for marginalized students based upon religious affiliation, has been very lukewarm with and has not been willing to pair up with many other groups on campus such as the feminist student union, gay rights groups on campus, and they do not even attend the student government for other marginalized groups because the leadership does not think that other systems of privilege exist other than the one that harms atheists. From what I've seen within the atheist community, it is usually the people with the more privileged identities that oppose social justice, but not entirely, and I think one thing that can be done to solve this rift is that both sides do not immediately become defensive when meeting each other, and instead have the social justice side simply express their viewpoints/educate the other side which may not be that knowledgeable on the subjects the social justice side talk about, and the other side should not be immediately dismissive of the social justice side and instead think critically about what was said before making any judgements.

    I do not try to say that atheists who disagree with me when it comes from social justice are lacking all rationality like has been said above, and I honestly think that is partly what causes that divide, is that both sides are more willing to attack one another and score imaginary points then they are to actually have a dialogue that can be beneficial both to the atheist community itself as well as other marginalized groups in which atheists should feel the need to ally with.
     
  7. Shadstack

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    Statement with no evidence. You just proved his point.

    top kek
     
  8. Kira

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    I can second this.

    It also ties in a fair bit with atheism, since most religions were written by ancient misogynistic men. As a nonbeliever, I don't have a book telling me to be unequal, I simply live my life. Nobody "owns" me and it will remain that way.
     
  9. Cauldron

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    I'm calling it right now, This thread is going to end horribly.
     
  10. imnotreallysure

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    [​IMG]
     
  11. Shadstack

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    Probably locked...please be civil to keep the opinion thread up, guys!
     
  12. DeviantAttitude

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    The first statement perfectly encapsulates what is observable from the outside. The current discourse of both sides doesn't help advance social equality because no one can meet the middleground and no one is willing to concede. One side accuses the other of being racist,misogynist,homophobic,transphobic and the other accuses the first of being irrational, of not standing for free speech among other things. Its sickening.

    ---------- Post added 31st May 2016 at 11:37 PM ----------

    Religion does tie in with misogyny and the idea of patriarchy in general, but I think there is a gigantic of a stretch to say that the West lives under one and ignoring where religion still rules with an iron fist like in the middle-east.

    If we concentrate on what we can do for social justice in those places we would be in a better world. Our lands are not perfect but between being misrepresented and completely oppressed, I choose fixing the place where women are still stoned to death.
     
  13. ForeverMe

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    I have a lot to say in response to this, but I'm going to try to be civil. I apologize if my opinions offend anyone; I believe all people should be entitled to their own opinion, as long as they remain kind and compassionate to their fellow beings.

    1) Your argument that all feminists are automatically irrational. This upsets me mainly because it is a generalization. Other annoying generalizations include:

    All Republicans are racist and sexist
    All Women are high management
    All black people are lazy

    THAT is where generaliations get you. Bad places.

    2) Define the Patriarchy:

    A system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are largely excluded from it.

    In many ways, Power=Money. The gender wage gap makes it so that women make less money. You could argue that women are naturally inclined to do lower paying jobs...but look at other countries, and you will see that women take many different jobs than they do in the U.S. and the U.K. Also, many fields like computer science were dominated by women until people realized that there was money to be made in the computer industry. Another thing. The "Pink Tax". Women are charged sooo much more than men on everyday products. Definitely not fair.

    Also, the U.S. hasn't ever had a female president. Coincidence? I think not. (Sorry, I don't know much about politics in the U.K. Please accept my apologies).

    3) Garbage? Evidence, please?

    4) Oh, they're demonizing. And you're not? Also, are you sticking to the debate? And, "What the hell is wrong with humanity?" is a perfectly valid question. Humans can be idiots. Like, homophobic people and drunk drivers.

    5) Western world religion is NOT a problem?! Christian extremists continue to condemn gay people. Also, although they might not be a problem now, look what Christianity has made people do? A list:

    Colonizing America and treating natives badly, all under the guise of saving the souls of the Native people by converting them to Christianity.

    Taking slaves from Africa, and initially justifying it by saying "well, they're not Christian..."

    Using the bible to define law, as if there were no other religions. I mean, there is some bad stuff in that Bible thing.

    (DISCLAIMER: These are a FEW actions comitted using Christianity. All religions can do good, and all can do bad. Not all Christians are good, and not all of them are bad.)

    6) I already kind of went over this, but generalizing one religion as evil and bad simply isn't correct. Hey, plenty of Islamic people would be better off without Western Meddling (see: U.S.'s over involvement in foreign affairs and the (old) European obsession with conquering.)

    7) Okay. Left wing Marxists. Sigh.

    How can you complain about racism and sexism against white males. The left wing agenda (not sure about the Marxist agenda) is about EQUALITY. Just because left wingers want equal representation for minorities doesn't mean that the majority will be oppressed. Also, have you ever been refused a job because of your name? (I haven't, I'm only 14). People have been doing experiments or years with job aplications, with everything the smae, but a different name. Replace a "foreign" name with a "white" name, or the other way around. Look it up.

    That is all I have to say. I will reiterate that I did not intend to offend anyone, simply to present my ideas. Have a nice day.
     
    #13 ForeverMe, May 31, 2016
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  14. Invidia

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    First things first. I think most of us can agree on at least two things here:
    1) Gender equality is important (whether or not you feel it has been achieved)
    2) Critique of ideology is valuable
    But then things go astray. I think one of the most crucial inhibitors of a constructive discussion on topics of ethics/ideology such as this is a lack of realism, or seeing things in black and white. Now. Not one movement or ideology, ever, was or is perfect. There will be sour grapes in all such constellations, there will even be flaws, inconsistencies, irregularities, and other phenomena that invoke cognitive dissonance among some, along the way and even at the core, of every ideology. This is an inescapable part of human nature.
    Therefore, I firmly believe that it is due of one who is seriously concerned about the state of society not to nitpick the smallest flaws to be found in that which may (at first or persistently) cause them cognitive dissonance, and use that as an argument against movements that have brought lots of good to the world. That isn't to say that e.g. feminism does not engender any major flaws, or that in general minding minor grievances as well is invalid. Rather, I mean that getting caught up on minor flaws and losing sight of the big picture is something that should preferably be avoided as far as is possible and practicable.
    Also, a lot of people might hate on almost every ideology in the world, but have one or two ideologies they consider superior, and use that as a kind of anchor: "I'm right about this and that, thus my critique of everything else is correct". That was poorly worded but I didn't know how else to say it, so whatever. This is also a problem. Ideology is human, and I hardly believe there's a person alive without any ties to any ideology. But if you consider yourself an empathetic, compassionate, and open-minded person, it does well to try to see things from other people's perspective. Sometimes that's hard - and at those times a bare minimum to honor is respect.
    Another point is of the hypocrisy I so often see in discussions like these, about sensitivity. Some people will often say things like
    "Social justice warriors/feminists/left-wingers are against freedom and their arguments are illogical."
    "Uh-huh, okay, why?"
    "Becuz they take away muh freeze peach Q__Q sadface panda *cries*"
    And then I just go... yeah... look who's talking. It's so much easier for most people to see flaws in other people or ideologies or other people than it is to see it in themselves and their own. I do not claim I am exempt from this, by the way. It's called confirmation bias. I like to think I have a sophisticated view on the social issue of gender equality, but my most basic positivity toward it is something along the lines of "gender equality is good. Feminism stands for gender equality. Therefore feminism is good." That means that I will seek out the good parts about feminism and be blind or opposed to its criticisms to a large extent. However, it does not have to mean that I can't criticize it at all! Of course I can, and I do make a point of criticizing currents of feminism, mainly the lack of focus on the oppression of men. That lack is somewhat understandable, since feminism comes a lot from a leftist tradition, which is very highly system-centric, and prone to glossing over certain social issues if there are other, adjacent social issues that are worse. Because indeed, women are more oppressed than men. Just ask a lot of trans men the tremendous gain in privilege they could practically feel under their skin as they starting passing as male, or the other way around with trans women. But I myself, having lived socially as a male for the vast majority of my life to date, know well of the oppression of men, or AMABs if I am to be more inclusive here. I felt like society kept telling me to be a robot, that I was not to express a single emotion until the day I died. From a first world perspective, I can say that this problem is something I would consider more acute than a 5% or whatever difference in wages, even though the latter is not to be trivialized either. I wish that feminism could mature into a role of guarding men's rights, as well. I have seen seeds of it, yes, but not yet any ripe fruits. (Time to call fourth wave feminism?)
    Anywho... mind perspectives, practice what you preach, and keep an open mind. These are some small changes to one's behavior one can strive for to become a better person, and thus be more fit to contribute constructively to social or other issues at hand.
     
    #14 Invidia, Jun 1, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2016
  15. Secrets5

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    Quote: ''Just because left wingers want equal representation for minorities doesn't mean that the majority will be oppressed.''

    It does if the majority are constantly told to ''shut up'' or ''you're a majority - your opinion doesn't count''. And someone belonging to a majority group not getting the job [or whatever] just because someone in the minority applies even though the person in the majority group is better - how's that equal*? If we were in a job where there is more people in the minority group and someone in the majority group applied and the manager hires the person in the majority group (even though someone applying from the minority group was better) to try and make it look equal [which is really diversity*] then that wouldn't be okay.

    *Treating everyone the same regardless of protected characteristics.
    * Treating groups differently to make sure that there is a varied amount of protected characteristics in a group.

    I'm not sure if this belongs here, but I'd like to say it; I can believe in gender equality and not be a feminist. Just as how you can believe in feminism and not be a man-hater.
     
    #15 Secrets5, Jun 1, 2016
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  16. Invidia

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    Two comments on your above post, Secrets.

    One: you say "if" a lot. This makes it sound very abstract, and even though I personally usually prefer that open-ended way of doing things, this time I'm left confused. Could you perhaps give a short example, hypothetical or real, to demonstrate your point, because I don't entirely see it?

    Second: I agree on that labels aren't everything when it comes to ethics, values, or ideology. For example, I think some girls are cute as hell without being a lesbian, I can not believe in any form of divinity but not be an atheist, be eco-centric without being a hippie, and have my political sympathies to the left of the political mainstream without being an authoritarian, horrible person that masturbates to pictures of Josef Stalin.
    I will say, though, that both believing in gender equality but not being a feminist is more of a rule than an exception, and being a feminist but not being a man-hater is more of a rule than an exception.
     
  17. Glowing Eyes

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    Kind of bugs me too but its not impossible to find the middle ground of atheist media figures who are for equality without being (as much as I hate, hate, hate this word) SJWs.
     
    #17 Glowing Eyes, Jun 1, 2016
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  18. Secrets5

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    For example, in university applications you are asked to give your gender [male or female]. Although these statistics are only supposed to be given after the offers have been given out, they have been used to make sure there are more females in traditionally male subjects (even making allowances for females such as not having A-level subjects that males have got to have to get onto the course) and males into traditionally female subjects such as teaching. Now teaching is a job that affects other people i.e. the students, and if not done well, this could impact on the lives of the future generation. Universities are giving males an automatic (unconditional offer) entry into teaching courses at university, even if they have no where near the required grades. This means females with the required grades will be sent to lower universities.

    There are more examples with cis or trans gender, race, ethnicity and sexuality - but I tend to stick with male and female examples as there is [what I consider] equal points in both groups.

    Please note I'm from the UK, so application process might be different from you. I know my original example focused on jobs and I could re-write the above for jobs, but I'm doing uni applications at the minute so that was in my head.

    I say ''if'' because not all jobs (and other places) are like this.

    It's a known fact we hire people who are more like ourselves, whether it is a majority or minority group, so I think the only way to remove prejudice and focus on what the person has done (experience, grades, special skills) is by removing the sheet that gives access to these characteristics before being hired.
     
    #18 Secrets5, Jun 1, 2016
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  19. SHACH

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    I assume that you realise that there has never been a female president in the US; there are way way way more men in management positions than women; there is still a pay gap; here in the UK, women are charged huuuuge luxury tax on tampons and sanitary towels and other toiletries while a lot of men's shaving products, toiletries etc. are untaxed (tampons are essential unless you want to be walking around in pools of blood all the time - the luxury tax is an exploitation of women) etc etc etc. I mean, just to put it simply, a patriarchy is a society ruled by men - if the president/primeminister and most of his advisors are men then it's a patriarchy - no other evidence needed. I think you'll find in most countries, the government is usually a patriarchy.

    And I'm just talking about the first world there - really th e priority right now should be the third world, where often women have next to no rights at all.

    In the first world, yes I think women have legal equality... In fact they have the legal upper hand in places. They have political rights in full but not equality in representation. And social, cultural and economic factors are always more elusive in the progress of any developing group. There's definitely still stuff to be done in terms of representation and those elusive three - just because women now have a certain amount of tools and rights to help themselves does not mean there are not some problems - there is a difference between the equality of rights and the equality of life.
     
    #19 SHACH, Jun 1, 2016
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  20. Secrets5

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    Why should we *have* to have a female president/priminister? I.E. If she has policies I don't agree with [to do with gender or not] I'm not going to vote for her. I shouldn't have to vote for someone I don't agree with just to erase one factor of society. Or be ''forced'' to vote for her in fear of being called sexist if I don't.

    I think there does need to be other evidence. ''Why did people vote/not vote for her'' if they voted for her just because she was female or didn't vote for her just because she was female, then that is sexist. Ruling a country is about laws and policies - and whilst gender does come into policy - it doesn't determine your ability to run a country. I mean, M. Thatcher was a female ministery and many people think she didn't do a very good job (something about the mining industry and increasing the class divide).

    I mean, some people in America are still racist despite having a black president.
     
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