Strayed from religion-follow up to the Religion thread

[xequar]

Ok, so after reading the three pages on the currently circulating Religion thread and associated poll, I've noticed a fair amount of people say things like, "Well, I'm a Catholic, but I don't actually believe it and just go to church to make my parents happy," or other similar sentiments. I also noticed, in contrast to those who voted one thing yet stated they believed another, that those who were sure of what they believed were able to firmly state it. Atheists/Agnostics were able to articulate their views on the Universe. I saw a couple of people mention that they were Methodist.

My question, then, is if one attends a certain church, but believes something entirely different, should they not vote in the poll according to their actual belief, instead of based on whatever church they attend?

Example-if someone says they don't believe in god, but they go to a Catholic church, then aren't they an Atheist, not a Catholic? Or does going into a particular building make you whatever the type of building is, i.e. you become a Catholic by going to a Catholic church? Like I said, I saw a number of "I voted XXX. I go to XXX church, but I actually believe YYY." I think this bumper sticker says it very well...



Like I said, I kinda wanted to get people's thoughts on this. This is not a venue or attempt to bash anyone's beliefs or anything like that. I'm just genuinely curious about the discrepancy between stated belief and actual belief.

[Martin]

Yep, I think what you said is true personally. Just going to church doesn't make you Catholic or whatever, and many people who get forced to go from a young age and don't believe in it never attend it again once they're able to make that choice. I've seen statistics in my sociology lessons that show just how significant the drop can become, and that's because the people no longer get forced to go there.

I have been to church ceremonies before such as marriage, christenings etc and it doesn't make me religious. If anybody tried to say I was simply because of that then I would tell them to go fuck themselves, tbh. Church attendance means very little now, and religion itself is becoming a very pick and mix thing. Most of the religious people I have met who are my age practically create their own religion because they only stick to the values they want to, and any that interfere with their life are simply rejected by them. They claim to be religious, but when it comes down to it they know very little about their religion and just choose to stick to what they want and not what their religion says.

[partietraumatic]

interesting that alot of people say they attent church but dont believe in that religion,im the opposite! ive rarely been to chruch in my life. ive certainly been with my family less than 5 times in my life,even the one wedding ive been to didnt take place in a church! yet despite this i do believe in a god. I stress A god- not the god of any particular religion. I just believe that there is something that created everything and that if you live a good life you will please it,regardless of whether youre muslim,chritian,sikh or straight or gay. I also think organised religion is often more of a hinderance to living a good life than it should be...but thats for a different discussion lol. Anyway thats my opinion,which ive decided upon with almost no religious exposure from my family. Which leads me to think that having religion thrust upon you makes you more likely to reject it. The fact ive been left to decide for myself is perhaps why ive come to a positive conclusion...

[Wander]

I used to go to a local Baptist church, where my grandparents made me do the choir and go to an all-day summer camp one week. I had little classes every morning, but I only went the full service twice - the first time he compared humans to worms, the second time to dirt in pots. I was never baptized, I never went to a wedding there, nothing special. Though ironically, I did play Jesus in the choir bit I did.

Since I left, religion was never really on my mind, and thankfully so. I started investigating it again when I was about 14, and I sort of drifted towards atheism shortly thereafter.

[Daniel]

Personally I am Roman Catholic, and yes I am not the best at attending church...

But that being said I am Roman Catholic, I believe the teachings, I find moral guidance in the church, and I find comfort in it. Heck I'm proud to be Catholic.

DON'T ATTACK ME FOR THIS!

People I believe are allowed to say they attend a church and still have personal beliefs. Only one person can define EXACTLY what that person believes. And saying that a person who claims to be one religion but does not believe every part of it is atheist is inaccurate in my opinion. They may simply be spiritual or guided by the religion.

People are going to hate me for this...

[Shevanel]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Personally I am Roman Catholic, and yes I am not the best at attending church...

But that being said I am Roman Catholic, I believe the teachings, I find moral guidance in the church, and I find comfort in it. Heck I'm proud to be Catholic.

DON'T ATTACK ME FOR THIS!

People I believe are allowed to say they attend a church and still have personal beliefs. Only one person can define EXACTLY what that person believes. And saying that a person who claims to be one religion but does not believe every part of it is atheist is inaccurate in my opinion. They may simply be spiritual or guided by the religion.

People are going to hate me for this...

Hate you for being completely right? Don't be so doubtful of yourself Daniel. I wholeheartedly agree

[olides84]

No, Daniel, no one should hate you for that. I think what Xequar was trying to understand is how much it seems like people in that thread are straying some from the specific teachings of their (parents?) religion, not that once you vary a bit you can only go directly to non-believer.

I do think it's interesting. And even me, who was raised Catholic, confirmed and everything, and now consider myself Atheist. I know a lot of Catholics who are still very invested in the church but disagree with a few or some principles. Whether it may be about gays, right to choose, women as priests, etc.

[briguy]

Hey Daniel, I am Roman Catholic as well, I even went to Catholic school! I believe in the church, do I believe in all the teachings or the politics of the church- not at all. I just think that it is important to be spiritual, and love thy neighbour (isn't that what church is about anyways??) I guess I would be one of those guys as said previously is "invested in the church but disagree with a few or some principles". It would be great if people could be religous and not be judgemental at the same time. I do know that the United Church of Canada does same-sex marriages.

[Psychedelic Bookmarks]

Yeah, I agree. I attend Church because it's what I'm used to and it's the only religious service available to me, but I actually believe more in Buddhism. So I voted Buddhist.

[xequar]

Originally Posted by Daniel

Personally I am Roman Catholic, and yes I am not the best at attending church...

But that being said I am Roman Catholic, I believe the teachings, I find moral guidance in the church, and I find comfort in it. Heck I'm proud to be Catholic.

DON'T ATTACK ME FOR THIS!

People I believe are allowed to say they attend a church and still have personal beliefs. Only one person can define EXACTLY what that person believes. And saying that a person who claims to be one religion but does not believe every part of it is atheist is inaccurate in my opinion. They may simply be spiritual or guided by the religion.

People are going to hate me for this...

Easy there, killer! I stated from the outset that I wasn't attacking anyone's beliefs, and I stand by that. Believe whatever you want to believe, and I seriously hope whatever that is works well for you. If being Christian works out for you, then great! Rock on! If being an Agnostic Atheist Pantheist works for you (my current cocktail of choice), bravo! If being a Muslim/Jew/Scientologist (ok, not Scientologist. They're f--king crazy j/k) /whatever works for you, I say go for it!

I know there are a lot of people out there that agree with the bulk of, but not all of, the tenents of their faith/religion/spiritual path. I get that. That's normal. If a Catholic believes most of the Vatican's teaching and disagrees with their stance on homosexuality, that's great, and I'd still say they're Catholic. What I'm wondering about are quotes like these...

My mum's an Anglican, my Dad's in the Uniting church, i attend a Catholic School and my best friend is a Lutheran.... Technically that would make me christian, but i don't know what to believe.

I said Christian, out of habit's sake. I mostly believe in their being God. I believe in hope and kindness and many of the things Jesus preached, although I'm not sure whether I believe if he's the Messiah. I almost feel it doesn't change the love he advocated/spread, though.

I'm going to say Christian, because I was raised Catholic, but I have kind of fallen away from the organized religion thing in recent years. I think that religion should be my own endeavor, and I don't appreciate any church telling me what I "have to believe" in order to be "saved".

Quotes like these to me strike me as saying one thing and believing an entirely different thing. Again, I'm not trying to bash on anyone's beliefs. I'm curious, though, how one could say that they're, say, Christian, if they don't believe the major tenets of Christianity (like Jesus being the Messiah), or how one is a Christian just because their parents and friends are.

I guess part of it is that I try to make people think a bit, to reexamine some of their previously held beliefs and convictions, to reevaluate them to see if they're still valid, or if they've outlived their usefulness or have morphed into something else, to assess and retain the good ones and alter and or discard the ones that don't mesh with one's being. My own journey down the Christian path was one pull of the trigger of a shotgun away from killing me, and it had me hating myself for being gay and had me being a generally bad person because I was busy thumping a bible instead of trying to be a decent person. But, it came to a point where I had to basically start from scratch, reexamine everything about my life, my beliefs, and who I was and who I wanted to be as a person, and as I discovered elements of myself and incorporated new information and assessments into my being, my external reality soon matched my internal reality. That said, I'm just trying to understand.

[Ben]

Well I'm going to put in a good word for the people who do stray from their religion and figure out their true values for themselves

There are literally thousands (11,000?) of religions all around the world, each one believes different things about life and death. The basic similarity that I see through religion is the underlying theme of starting up with one idea, and the religion or its ideas are enough to pull more people on board. Thus I think that Gods or religion incorporate cultural and social values, enough to motivate particular groups of people. Because if a culture did not like a religion or if it didn't suit them well then they would not bother to take it so seriously. That's if we can assume that instead of there only being one whole and true religion, religions are simply the way of capturing something, whatever that something is, and incorporating it into life for whatever reason.
I take this as a good enough reason to see religion and "God" as less solid terms, and to put organised religion to one side and take the "pick and mix" idea as earlier mentioned and embrace it. The way I see religion is that it's pretty beautiful the world over. The name of religion has been tarnished by extreme groups so it would be nice to almost revamp the true image of religion into something not so solid and something we can take upon ourselves to mould into the religion that suits us, in an individual form of that way i think cultures have done so over thousands of years.
I believe that there is logic in leaving solid structured religion behind in order to move to a place whereby we can appreciate and marvel at whatever we want. Much like it's more healthy for our human experience to appreciate and listen to all music rather than only to listen to songs recorded by The Beatles between the years of 1961-3. Truth is, yes The Beatles are the true meaning of music, because they offer us insight onto the world of music in a beautiful way. But it's much more worthwhile to zoom out and discover acid jazz, 30's female jazz greats and psychedelic folk harp, is it not?

I hope this makes at least some sense. This is why I'm very happy to create my own moral values.

[carrie90]

im morman so nobody can blame me 4 straying from the church theres a huge list of things you cant do homosexuality being top of the list

[someguy82]

I was never a member of any church, so I never had a reason to stray.

Having agnostic parents is great.

[silas99]

I liked your bumper sticker. I think I stand in the middle ground with this discussion. I think that xequar points are valid....why do people still claim to be christian/muslim if they do not practice the religion, or in fact believe most of the teachings? I think that for some people it's difficult to admit that they may in fact be agnostic....a bit like a coming out the closet almost. If all your life you have been brought up a Catholic then it's very difficult for some people to claim to be something different. Almost like a whole other identity.

Obviously the converse argument to all this is equally as interesting. What defines a christian? Is it someone who goes to church every sunday, prays every night, reads the bible and follows Jesus wholeheartedly? For some people christianity is about loving others and showing compassion, but not necessarily agreeing with the bible......are those people christian? You are whatever you want to be...there are no definitive borders.

[xequar]

Originally Posted by Invisible

Well I'm going to put in a good word for the people who do stray from their religion and figure out their true values for themselves

There are literally thousands (11,000?) of religions all around the world, each one believes different things about life and death. The basic similarity that I see through religion is the underlying theme of starting up with one idea, and the religion or its ideas are enough to pull more people on board. Thus I think that Gods or religion incorporate cultural and social values, enough to motivate particular groups of people. Because if a culture did not like a religion or if it didn't suit them well then they would not bother to take it so seriously. That's if we can assume that instead of there only being one whole and true religion, religions are simply the way of capturing something, whatever that something is, and incorporating it into life for whatever reason.
I take this as a good enough reason to see religion and "God" as less solid terms, and to put organised religion to one side and take the "pick and mix" idea as earlier mentioned and embrace it. The way I see religion is that it's pretty beautiful the world over. The name of religion has been tarnished by extreme groups so it would be nice to almost revamp the true image of religion into something not so solid and something we can take upon ourselves to mould into the religion that suits us, in an individual form of that way i think cultures have done so over thousands of years.
I believe that there is logic in leaving solid structured religion behind in order to move to a place whereby we can appreciate and marvel at whatever we want. Much like it's more healthy for our human experience to appreciate and listen to all music rather than only to listen to songs recorded by The Beatles between the years of 1961-3. Truth is, yes The Beatles are the true meaning of music, because they offer us insight onto the world of music in a beautiful way. But it's much more worthwhile to zoom out and discover acid jazz, 30's female jazz greats and psychedelic folk harp, is it not?

I hope this makes at least some sense. This is why I'm very happy to create my own moral values.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I'm sure some of you know that I was once a conservative anti-gay Christian who later became the very open Agnostic Atheist Pantheistic person you know and (hopefully) love now. Like I said, that was part of why I started this thread, too, as I wholeheartedly encourage people to reevaluate their beliefs from time to time and remain true to themselves, not a set of rigid doctrines or the ideals of others.



Silas, you ask an interesting question, one which has been debated very very thoroughly in many many forums and venues, and I won't answer here, since your question is big enough that it would need at least a thread all to itself.

+ YouTube Video

I can't really expand on it as he explains it all so well. This is why I voted 'None' and why I "believe" in 'None'.

On a topic unrelated to this thread, I suggest you go check out his "Why Do People Laugh At Creationists?" videos on the Thunderf00t account. You will have chuckles, I promise.