LGBT and Religion

If there is a god he will love you no matter what.

 

Yes, God loves you (John 3:16). His love is unconditional and He will never leave or forsake you (Hebrews 13:5). Before you were even born, He chose you for a purpose (Jeremiah 1:5). He has amazing plans for you, of a hope and a future (Jeremiah 29:11).

If God is true and pure and makes no mistakes, then you being gay was a part of His plan. And in James, it says that God does not tempt His children to sin. Therefore, if God designed you with an inborn attraction to women, then being gay cannot be wrong. This is just one instance where the logic in Christianity does not support the idea that homosexuality is wrong. There are many, many more.

But the most important thing is this. The whole point of Christianity is love. Jesus said that only two commandments mattered: love God and love your neighbors (Matthew 22). We see what love looks like in all the Godly relationships throughout the Bible, especially in Jesus' life. Never is there an instance where Jesus condemns gay people and in fact, He frequently turns the tables on the religious rule-following of the Pharisees and states that they are missing the point. The point was never following a set of interpreted rules; God doesn't care about that. The point is that you are a loving person. When you read the Bible for yourself, with an open mind, you start to see clearly what that means.

There is a website called "Gay Christian Network" where they have two Christian perspectives about homosexuality. Definitely worth a read, and there are very good points brought to light.

 

Alec above put it very very well. Really couldn't have said it better myself. Even though I'm not religious as of now, I was a bit involved in church (along with my family) when I was young, and I learned some things about Christianity along the way. I don't know much, but I do stand by the idea that the whole thing about Christianity is love. Religion is never super simple, but at the end of the day, I firmly believe that God loves you and accepts you. There is nothing wrong with you because of your sexuality (*hug*)

 

I usually wouldn't answer that kind of question, at least not if someone didn't ask me directly, but since a lot of people (here) value their feelings over the facts, and believe that feelings are most important, and if facts does not agree with our feelings that we should hide or discard facts, I'll answer that question.

There are good and bad news for you, and let's start with the good news...

The bible is not against homosexuality (if you define homosexuality merely as sexual attraction towards the same sex). No where in the Bible is attraction of person towards the same sex condemned nor nowhere says it is a 'sin'.

Now bad news...

No matter how some people want to reinterpret certain Bible passages (maybe the most popular example is Matthew Vines in his book "God and Gay Christians") Bible is certainly against homosexual activity (homosexual intercourse). There is no doubt about this, this is absolutely certain, this is as certain as the fact that the Bible is against satanism. Christianity, same as any Abrahamic religion, does not have a nice thing to say about homosexual activity. In the Bible, it goes so far that it basically says that 'people who live a homosexual lifestyle will not go in the heaven'

Nevertheless, I would suggest to you that you hear the opinions of those who believe that Christianity and homosexual lifestyle are compatible, but always keep one thing in mind.
When you want something to believe, when you desperately want something to be true, always be skeptical about this hypothesis which you want to be true, because otherwise you will be deceived by wishful thinking. If you desperately want that God exist, or that God does not exist, or that the Bible is not against the homosexual lifestyle, always be very very very skeptical when you evaluate evidence/arguments.

But... God loves everyone, right?

If the Biblical God does exist, God indeed loves literally everyone (including people like Hitler or Stalin) but on the other hand, this God who loves everyone will 'send' in the hell many, many people... In short: Only because God loves everyone, that does not mean he will not send in the hell many people.


There are 3 things which you can do:

1. Examine the Bible and your belief more closely, and after that if you came to the conclusion that God does not exist, you will have nothing to worry about.
2. Accept 99,9% of the Bible and reject 0,01% which you do not like (this is something what many people do, but in my view that is completely insane thing to do. )
3. Do not act upon your desires and do not embrace 'homosexual lifestyle'.

Whatever you decide to do, always think for yourself, don't believe something only because your friend told you so, or your parents told you so, or lgbt community told you so. Don't believe anything only because you want to, believing something doesn't make it so. If the evidence contradicts to your wishes, get over it. Learn to live your life according to evidence and not vice versa. Don't do (or believe) anything only because it feels good, instead learn to live your life according to the evidence of reality. Good luck.

 

Seems to me if there is a God he is either a) not all-powerful and more of a creator who doesn't interact with the creation, or b) not completely benevolent.

But I don't personally believe there is and I don't think you should feel bad over that people are using an ancient book written by men to say that your lifestyle is wrong. Shrug it off, you're not hurting anyone.

 

Actually it is.

Romans 1:26-27 "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error."

Not meaning to crap on your good news, but homosexual attraction is condemned in this passage. It is presented as the result of straying from God--in fact, it is almost presented as being caused by God. We have to recognize, however, that homosexuality is only mentioned and condemned in the New Testament by one author, Paul. The same man who says women should be silent in church and that people should only get married to prevent fornication.

If you do believe that every line in the Bible is infallible and inerrant, then yes, you will run into some trouble when trying to accept homosexuality. If you recognize that the Bible was written by men, and the Biblical canon was decided upon centuries after the texts were written by another group of men who selected the least contradictory and most orthodox books to be included (though even this is not flawless in itself--there are spots of disharmony among the books), and that Paul may have inserted his own feelings and biases into the text, then perhaps you can find a way to reconcile homosexuality with God.

Ultimately none of us here can tell you how God views your homosexuality--that is between you and God. But there are numerous interpretations out there. The "Biblical literalist" interpretation does not lend itself well to acceptance of homosexuality, but other interpretations do. (And yes, I am a theist, though I am not a member of a specific religion).

 

I don't see how this passage condemns homosexual orientation. One thing is (shameful) lust and another thing is sexual orientation. I do not like to quote the Bible, but here I need.. Job 31:11 says: "For lust is a shameful sin, a crime that should be punished" Even 'according' to the Bible, lust and sexual orientation are not the same thing, otherwise Bible would condemn heterosexual orientation too.

The homosexual lifestyle is condemned not only in the NW, the homosexual lifestyle is also condemned in the OT. There are few passages both in the NW and OT which condemns homosexual lifestyle with direct language.

You cannot justify Paul's view on homosexuality by saying that Paul's view of women is sexist. In my view, you should not cherry-pick Bible passages if you are Christian. You cannot say "99% of the Bible is inspired by God, but 1% of the Bible, which I do not like is not inspired by God". That does not make any sense. Either everything in the Bible is inspired by God, or nothing in the Bible is inspired by God.

If a person does not believe that the Bible is inspired by God, then in my opinion, that person cannot call himself a Christian. He/she can still believe in a personal God who cares about humans, but he/she certainly does not and cannot believe in a Biblical God.

As far as I can see, there isn't any other reasonable interpretation of the Bible on homosexuality. Some people claim that there are, but some people claim that the Bible is not really against adultery or murder, some people claim that the moon does not exist, some people claim that the universe is 6 000 years old. The question is: is it reasonable to believe any of these things, and from everything what I know, the answer is no.

When you look at the arguments of people who want to say that the homosexual lifestyle is compatible with the Bible, these arguments are in my opinion, obviously only a wishful thinking, nothing else. I have not yet seen any logically coherent argument for compatibly of the homosexual lifestyle and the Bible, but I have seen many emotional arguments for that. Like it or not, Abrahamic religions condemn the homosexual lifestyle in every opportunity.

 

Not if the passage is interpreted as specifically calling the homosexual desires "shameful lusts". If lust is inherently shameful, then it need not be called "shameful". The passage then goes on the next line to discuss the abandonment of natural desires, implying that the natural desires are not wrong, but the unnatural ones, the desires for people of the same sex are. They are singled out in this passage for the very reason that they are wrong, according to Paul.

The men who wrote the Bible had no concept of "sexual orientation", but they do speak of desires, and especially "natural" ones as opposed to unnatural ones. That, I believe, is poignant and a condemnation of homosexual desires.

Yes, but for most Christians, the important condemnatory passages are in the New Testament. Most Christians do not pay much heed to what is condemned in the Old Testament, particularly when what is condemned is among the ceremonial laws in books like Leviticus, which modern Christians understand as not applying to them.

As Paul says in Galatians 3, the Law was a guardian to lead us to faith; now that faith has come, "we are no longer under a guardian". So the most salient and most convincing arguments against homosexuality for Christians need to be drawn from the New Testament. And we have the condemnations present in the Pauline epistles.

My point is to imply that Paul's views in general are "unpalatable" to many people living in modern western society.

Furthermore, your final statement is a false dichotomy, and nothing more than your own personal view. Many people do not share that belief.

Many believe that the Bible was inspired by God, and contains literal truth in it, but do not believe that every single line is inerrant. And for those that do, they interpret them in such a way as to more appropriately fit their own beliefs and biases. If this were not done, there would be no denominations, no difference in beliefs, but there are many differences, many sects, all stemming from different interpretation--interpretations that are available by virtue of the text.

Good for you. It is not my position, however, to tell people that they "cannot be Christians" for reasons that may be more tentative than you think.

Yes, your framework of knowledge and philosophical convictions cause you to reject those beliefs on the basis of reason, but for the very same reasons, someone may embrace them. Some even claim that the 6,000 year old earth stems from Biblical literalism. I have not independently evaluated all the claims that homosexuality is acceptable. As I already said, on Biblical literal grounds, it is not--I am not disagreeing with you there, as I pointed out, homosexual sex is condemned, as well as homosexual desires (in Romans 1:27). My only argument is that outside of a literal interpretation of the Bible, one can reconcile homosexuality with their belief in God. And it isn't my position to tell someone their understanding of God is wrong. For many people, it is a very personal understanding.

That's the difficulty with this question. Is it asking "Does the Bible allow homosexuality?" If that is the question, then I would say, no, it does not. Is it asking "Is it possible that God accepts homosexuals?", then that is a much more difficult question, one that cannot simply end at Biblical literalism.

 

But in Job 31:11 also says: ".. lust is a shameful sin .." By your own logic, doesn't that make heterosexual lusts sinful as well? I think that theologians have the view that some heterosexual lusts are sinful, while some are not sinful and the same goes for homosexual lusts. I have never heard any prominent/intelligent theologian who says that homosexual orientation is a sin (in fact, many of them specifically say that the Bible is not against homosexual orientation).

If you don't believe that the Bible is inspired word of God, then of course he had no idea about anything, on the other side, if you believe that the Bible is inspired word of God, then Paul knew exactly what he was writing. If someone is a Christian (if someone believes the Bible is inspired by God), that person cannot say something like "Paul didn't know anything about sexuality"

That is correct, but part of the laws in Leviticus do not apply to Christians today, but part of laws does apply for all Christians. (for example) Leviticus forbids incest and adultery... 'We know exactly' what applies to all Christians and what does not apply to Christians anymore, and the homosexual lifestyle is something what does apply to all Christians. Anyway, I think we agree here.

If the Bible is truly the word of God, then it's for all time, then this is the most perfect moral law and we should embrace it.

Well, perhaps that is my personal view, but the question is: "is my personal view logical?" and I would say yes. If someone believes that the Bible is not inerrant, but still inspired by God, then that person believes that God, the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-good being can make a mistake. So, ask yourself: Is it logical that all-knowing being can make a simple mistake? I don't think so.

If there are 10 interpretations of the Bible, what that tells you is that (at least) 9 of them are wrong. What many people will say is that they have a different interpretation of the Bible (as you said). Let me show you the process how they come to this different interpretation(in most cases).

A person who commits adultery reads the Bible, accepts everything besides the part where the Bible condemns adultery.

A person who is a child abuser reads the Bible and accepts everything besides the part where it says that child abusers will go to hell.

A person who lives a homosexual lifestyle reads the Bible and accepts everything besides the part where it says that people who practice homosexuality will go to hell.

In short, everyone rejects those passages by which he lives his life (or even maybe by which his friend, or siblings live their lifes)

There is only one correct framework of knowledge and philosophical convictions, and all other frameworks are wrong. There isn't a logical truth, and then the emotional truth. There is only one truth. If you think that my 'framework' is wrong, I would love to see where are my errors.

 

I'll do my best to give my own open thoughts on this well debated subject.

First of all, realising that you're LGBT allows you to understand a very small part of who 'you' are.
With Darwins' theory of evolution now proven as absolute fact that we Mammals/primates are made up of molecular strands of intrinsic DNA, and that our sexuality is inborn i.e. we have no choice as to who we'll be attracted to once puberty has done it's thing.

Most of society is straight, and most of straight society believe that their way of life - a man and a woman, a good job, children and holidays, etc is normal/natural. Whereas a human born to eventually become LGBT doesn't have a say in the matter; he or she cannot argue to his or her 'higher being' that they feel it's wrong, or that they don't want to be this way - as this is what we collectively call life.

Religion can, for the majority, be a calm and faithful long-term way of thinking, a true faith for them, which can allow people who believe what their bible says is how they have to live their lives. BUT the words, the very hurtful words were written around two thousand years ago by humans with vastly smaller brains than we currently have. They had nothing other than the moon, the stars, the earth and the sky to proclaim to writing the probable schizophrenic's notes written in the middle east - not in China; where they could read and write.

Today, with huge thanks to Science, Darwin, Hitchens, and Dorkins etc etc we can disprove so many things the bible bashers claim as evidence of god/one of the gods

There is absolutely zero evidence of any god, zeus, thor, apollo etc etc and this really enables rational human minds to come to one conclusion: We are born into this world with free will. Free thought to help our neighbours and friends live safely as best we can regardless of sexual attraction, colour of our skin, etc etc etc etc

 

Actually, Ruth and Naomi have a relationship that is not condemned. The Hebrew word used in Ruth 1:14 to describe those feelings is quite telling. The text says, “Ruth clung to [Naomi].” The Hebrew word for “clung” is “dabaq.” This is precisely the same Hebrew word used in Genesis 2:24 to describe how Adam felt toward Eve.

Keep in mind the story of Lot and his daughters. Genesis 19:30-38
Lot and his two daughters left Zoar and settled in the mountains, for he was afraid to stay in Zoar. He and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 One day the older daughter said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is no man around here to give us children—as is the custom all over the earth. 32 Let’s get our father to drink wine and then sleep with him and preserve our family line through our father.”

33 That night they got their father to drink wine, and the older daughter went in and slept with him. He was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

34 The next day the older daughter said to the younger, “Last night I slept with my father. Let’s get him to drink wine again tonight, and you go in and sleep with him so we can preserve our family line through our father.” 35 So they got their father to drink wine that night also, and the younger daughter went in and slept with him. Again he was not aware of it when she lay down or when she got up.

36 So both of Lot’s daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab[a]; he is the father of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi; he is the father of the Ammonites[c] of today.

Which I only bring up, because it is this is one of those stories that make me question God's logic and rational thinking during certain points. Two people of the same gender can't have sex, but he is cool with daughters raping their father. Pardon the harsh language but that is pretty much what they did.

Also do not forget that before Eve, Adam had another wife; Lilith. Who refused to be submissive to Adam, granted things didn't go well for her defying god... She wanted to be his equal, since she was created in the same manor as Adam. The bible isn't a big fan of equality between men and women. One of the many reasons, I have personally turned my back on "major" religion.


If your faith is important to you, than you should look for an LGBT friendly pastor to sit down and talk about this with. Or perhaps even look for a more open denomination than the one you are currently in. A little soul searching (I know, its a bad pun) might be just what you need.

 

http://emptyclosets.com/forum/3007042-post17.html

I made this post not too long ago. It has great resources for people who are trying to reconcile their faith with their sexuality.

I hope this is more useful to the OP then it was in the original thread I posted it in. People just ignored it

 

Placing too great an emphasis on the precise meaning or syntax of any passage from the Bible (especially some of the clobber passages) takes you into a theological no-mans land where there are no winners.

Biblical literacy has never been so bad. Lay people throw passages around from scripture without knowing anything about the historical context in which they were first written and without any regard to the years of re-writing and editing that followed. Some church leaders wilfully ignore years of scholarship, in order to proclaim a literal and deeply slanted interpretation that is full prejudice and spiteful invective towards different social groups, including the LGBT community. Let's not pretend otherwise.

Nobody is in full possession of "facts" about any line or passage from the Bible (or the Quran, for that matter) and that's why we should place greater emphasis on our personal relationship with God in the 21st century. The Bible is important to Christians and I have a deep affection for many of passages myself, but we don't meet God through words alone. A daily/regular encounter with the One who is the ground of our very being will always be more important and personal, and it's in those moments of peace with God that LGBT Christians experience the real love that so often they fear losing.

 

All those articles are on the website of the Human Rights Campaign. We all know that HRC is one of the largest supporters of the LGBT community in the world. Of course they will say that religion and homosexuality are compatible. Those articles are so biased that they are not even worth reading. Here is the website of the Flat Earth Society. I'm sure you will find here articles which say that science supports the flat earth: http://www.theflatearthsociety.org. If you find there sentences which say that science supports flat earth, will you start to believe that the earth is flat?

And one other important thing. Only because there are LGBT people who are Christians, or Muslims, or even only because there are 'Christian' churches which are pro-lgbt, that doesn't mean that religion (Christianity) and homosexuality are compatible. There are scientists who believe that the earth is flat. Does that mean that the 'flat earth' "theory" and science are compatible? Of course not. All what that shows is that people are able to hold contradictory beliefs in their head.


@PatrickUK I disagree with almost everything what you said, but there is one crucial sentence which I want to comment on.

That is exactly what is wrong. The idea that you can speak with the creator of the universe and that he can tell you things which contradicts everything what we know.

Someone else will talk to God and he will say that God told him that he needs to kill 1000 people. Someone else will talk to God and he will say that God told him that he/she needs to torture animals, etc. etc.

I'm sure you are sincere, but you should not base your life on something what is happening in your head. I have tried to speak to God, I have really, really tried, but guess what? I never got any reply. Of course, you can think that you got a reply, but that is only your imagination (at best).

But anyway, if you believe that the most important thing in the world is a personal relationship with God, then tell me what can you say to those people who claim that God told them they need to kill 1000 people?

EDIT: Oh yeah, one more question. Is there anything what could change your mind about the existence of God or about the religion (Christianity) and homosexuality? If it turns out that your religion and homosexuality are incompatible, what would you do?

 

I could spend a long time arguing against the things you've said in this thread, but I'll attempt to respond to this set:

If you believe in God, then you believe that God is inherently good, and that everything that comes from God is good. Killing 1000 people, is, according the absolute morality that comes from God, not good, therefore any message that directs you to do that could not possibly be from God.

A reply is not a voice in your head telling you to do something; it is more like a feeling or a general understanding, or the result of a prayer. It is something more personal. You may have gotten a reply; it just might not have met your unrealistic expectations.

I can't speak for Patrick, but if I found out my religion and my sexuality were truly incompatible, then I would have to remain celibate or attempt to change my sexuality, since I wouldn't choose something temporal over something eternal.

"Sentences" aren't convincing on their own. You have to examine the science that is put forth there and judge for yourself whether it is sound or unsound. Examining flat earth science would lead you to conclude that it is not.

The same thing can be said for arguments that homosexuality is compatible with religion. Have you actually examined the arguments? Or are you just automatically dismissing them because they contradict your firm conviction that homosexuality is incompatible with religion and nothing can disrupt that conviction, no matter what evidence is provided?